DAC’s

@lalitk Brinkmann Nyquist MKII doesn’t sound like digital at all. Brinkmann voiced it to his turntable. 

It was a paradigm shift for me in that it didn’t sound like any other DAC.

You can hear Brinkmann’s uncompromising vision for digital in this DAC.

@charles1dad You are exactly right, that is what I was implying. 

The Zenith is on its own considered a fine music server. So, reclocking may be unnecessary. I don’t believe that some low quality server/streamer would allow the Echo End DAC to shine.It still benefits from a good quality source in front of it.

Charles 

@nyev Statement is on another system. So, I bought the Phoenix Recklocker and put it on my Zenith with the LessLoss Echo's End, guess I will be selling the Phoenix Recklocker. Did absolutely nothing in the chain with the LessLoss Echo's end. Sure, am glad it was a demo, and I got a good deal. Sounds choked off with this Innuos Phoenix in the chain. Goes to show a great DAC is all thats needed with great USB. May sell the Statement and 680D, buy a Zenith and another LessLoss for upstairs. 

@jerryg123 , if your LessLoss unlocks performance, I'm curious - does it nullify the benefit of your Statement over your Zenith?  In other words, does the Statement provide zero benefit over your Zenith with LessLoss?

If so that's awesome.  Just curious.

@nyev yes I am aware I have no intention in upgrading. I am not going to chase the dragon, quite content. Also no need for a reclockers in my Zenith with the LessLoss. Played these upgrade games with boats and motorcycles. I am very very happy and no need for upgrades anywhere in my systems. 
 

One day you will get there. What I lack in youthful exuberance, I make up for with age and treachery. 😈

@jerryg123 , your Statement has the same reclocker as my PhoenixUSB included inside it, in one box, so actually you are using one :)

Also, the bottom box of your Statement is the power supply.  If you aren’t aware, Innuos launched an upgrade for the bottom box of your Statement and has an upgrade program to replace yours with the upgraded version.  It’s supposed to be far superior to the non-upgraded Statement….

@nyev no intention of installing any reclockers or power supplies. I use LessLoss Fire Wire 640X on my DACs and digital front ends as well as analog. Also with the LessLoss Echos End DAC there is no need for any digital tomfoolery nor with my 680D. I am not an advocate for external clocks and every one I have tried has a truly made an organic DAC like the LessLoss sound muffled, vailed, like my ex wife biting a pillow. 
 

Not saying the Phoenix is not helping your sound, it may be showing the shortcomings of your inboard DAC and it’s clocking ⏰ 🕰 

Also worth noting that the Innuos PhoenixNET Ethernet switch also seems to work wonders. While the PhoenixUSB focused individual tones and makes them pop, the PhoenixNET tames things and adds a touch of warmth and overall ease to the sound.

Of course if you have the Statement you don’t need the PhoenixUSB but the consensus on forums seems to be the PhoenixNET still improves the Statement.

Innuos has made it so that you can spend a ton of cash on their gear but they also make it dangerously worthwhile.

@jerryg123 thanks anyways.  Are you planning to upgrade your Statement to the Innuos next-gen power supply?  At least from what I’ve heard reviewers say at shows (Stereophile etc), it sounds like it is very much worth it…. If you are considering this, I’m jealous!

@nyev I do not use any reclockers. I use separate DAC,s in both my systems. I also run 2 separate networks. 

The T&A dac 200 has beat anything under$15 k in several areas and many filters to adjust to your taste well worth checking out in the$7 k range.

@jerryg123 I see you have experience with both the Innuos Statement and Zenith. I’m currently running my Zenith Mk 3 with a PhoenixUSB Reclocker (feeding my Gryphon Diablo 300 with DAC module).  The reclocker definitely focuses and cleans things up, and vocals pop and “float” more.
 

I’m wondering what the step up to the Statement would be like.  Do you have any experience with the Zenith / PhoenixUSB combo as compared to a Statement on its own?

@kairosman 

Thank you for the follow up.

I will message you soon.

Be safe,

  LP

@lpretiring so after 4 days so only maybe 20+ hours I can say with total confidence the R26 is the very best under $5K DAC I've had in my system so far including the Terminator II I sold recently to fund my purchase of the Lampi.

System:

Audioquest and Transparent cabling

Melco S100 ethernet switch

Singxer SU-6 DDC

Lumin P1 using fiber optic input

Gryphon Diablo 300

B&W 804 D4s 

Midrange, soundstage and imaging are very good, indeed the midrange is as good as the Lampi except for voices. The only thing is it's a bit light on bass, but it's early days, I will post again here or you can PM me so we don't hijack this thread. FYI I am using the I2S and COAX inputs so have not yet tried the USB or Ethernet implementations, I will get around to USB eventually but have no need to use it as a streamer.

I'm very surprised frankly, although I did read some glowing reviews of it, usually I'm left underwhelmed, this DAC is truly excellent value.

@tomic601 yeah Jim… Got it.

I might get a fishing tonearm and see if I can get past the surf for the Whiting.
 

~Holmz, the last of the Mohicans.

Spotify is like a set of bald Mohawk raised white letter tires on your Lotus…. Hopefully that translated ok Randall ;-) Best to you ! Turntable frowned upon in the airplane…made me laugh… @holmz 

Jim

@ghdprentice

There is nothing strange about holmz lackluster attitude towards streaming, here is one of his earlier replies in the thread,

“Yeah - I am not much of streaming guy”

@lalitk the context was that I usually stream to either find new LPs, or have easy listening stuff playing in the background.
I usually preface an opinion where I am perhaps conflicted with a disclaimer like that.

But as @tomic601 mentioned, the lockdowns were an opportunity to take another pass through the system. So when the old CD player barfed, it seemed like streaming was worth a look. As well as playing out CDs that I have previously loaded into the computer (iTunes library). And I got a few CDs that overlap with LPs as I can listen to those in a car or airplane easier than an LP.

holmz

You shouldn’t have to listen to any particular instrument to detect the difference between an iPad dongle and a $2K DAC. It should be obvious and overwhelming. Definitely, Spotify is not a high quality source. But even then… very unusual

@ghdprentice Well the iPad was streaming the Spotify, and the dongle was going into RCAs into the back of the system next to the DAC inputs.
If it is Spotify as the limiter, then it makes sense as to why a dongle and a DAC are not too different.
Thanks!

To give some more context, the PrimaLuna is a bit warm, but switching between UltraLinear (UL) and Triode is much more obvious.

@milpai OK I’ll have a futz around with some of the other streaming options like Tidal and Qobuz.

Watching @shtr74sims go through the process may give me some insights.

When I play an LP and stream the same thing via Spotify, it largely sounds the same between LP, dongle, and RME.

I don't have experience with LP, so no comments. But try Tidal and Qobuz. The difference between them and Spotify is obvious. Mostly the upper frequencies and the tightness in lower frequency will be noticeable. If you are not able to detect it, that's ok. Just enjoy the music.

Even a difference between the dongle and streamer should come through. At least in my system it did. I moved from Auris BluMe, to Chromecast Audio to a Windows laptop to a Windows dedicated server. And each change upped the quality of listening experience.

it wasn’t lockdown for me but i can relate to forcing functions… when i retired 6 years ago i set out to explore analog vs. digital in some depth.. i invested in recording chain tools and support a local studio / engineer / recording artist on an investment / patronage basis. importantly i built my own mobile recording rack with both an excellent A2D and high speed tape. I drew my own conclusions from microphone selection, placement, configuration, cables, preamps, mixer(s), I didn’t buy a record lathe…. perhaps we can agree that except for a D2D, that format sourced from a tape..is lossy ?
Fun experiment….learning… still ongoing…..bottom line: each has virtues and limitations. What i find sad is a closed mind and ears that finds happiness in a single format….

now back to getting those Royer ribbons just so….

and to stay on the OP original?…. of course an MA3 is fantastic 

@jjss49 I find your post interesting and to the point. I too would not have gone in the many directions I have in the digital realm had it not been for lockdowns.

Started playing and just found that  one could spend a modest amount on a good DAC, Streamer and Cables in be in a really good digital space.

Fry cry from a I Pad and a AQ DAC , but hey that is good enough for some.

My wife cringes when the UPS or FedEX guy/person pulls up, is it tools, toys or audio? She really freaks when it's the DHL guy!

Bottom line it's all about music. 

@lalitk ​​​​@ghdprentice

even if he is a late comer to high performance streamed music, we shouldn’t be too negative about that per se... if it weren’t for covid in early 2020 shutting me in, i would also not have found the time energy and focus to learn and work on my streaming setup...

that said, folks shouldn’t poo-poo stuff they haven’t personally invested in and tried at length, but old threads can and should be given a pass imo... as enthusiasts should be allowed to change their minds as experience increases (you will find old threads of mine saying the bluesound node delivers as good streaming quality as more capable streamers... i have since learned, tried more, upgraded the feed, and revised that view...)

@ghdprentice

There is nothing strange about holmz lackluster attitude towards streaming, here is one of his earlier replies in the thread,

“Yeah - I am not much of streaming guy”

@holmz

You shouldn’t have to listen to any particular instrument to detect the difference between an iPad dongle and a $2K DAC. It should be obvious and overwhelming. Definitely, Spotify is not a high quality source. But even then… very unusual..

Good. Nirvana. Then why are you in these audio forums 24/7?

@thyname It was raining off and on most of the last couple of weeks, but I am doing some upgrades, so there is also that.
I went on a drive earlier and took the dog for a walk.

holmz I must say you got an unusual combination of components there. I’d recommend you start a separate discussion, asking for some feedback based on your current set up rather than hijacking this thread

OK @audphile1 - I was thinking that knowing “what to listen for” might also help the OP figure out if the DACS they are considering are markedly different or not.

When I play an LP and stream the same thing via Spotify, it largely sounds the same between LP, dongle, and RME.

Yup! Obviously. Everything sounds the same to you 🙄

They all sound pretty good to me.

Good. Nirvana. Then why are you in these audio forums 24/7?

Can anyone point me to the Meitner MA3 thread- I think I missed the turn

@holmz I must say you got an unusual combination of components there. I’d recommend you start a separate discussion, asking for some feedback based on your current set up rather than hijacking this thread.

@ghasley 

Digital:
iPad / Spotify —> RME ADI 2 DAC  —> Nagra Jazz —> PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium HP —> Vandersteen 2C and 2W.

When I play an LP and stream the same thing via Spotify, it largely sounds the same between LP, dongle, and RME.
They all sound pretty good to me. The few people that I know are into HiFi and come over are impressed or lying politely… or we are all 0.5 deaf.

Holms…always try to identify the limiting factor…spotify is certainly one limiting factor, the ipad another…whats the rest of your system?

Even though personally I do not notice much of a difference between a <$100 iPad dongle and a 2$k DAC I find it all pretty interesting.

What does one listen for to hear the difference?
Is it cymbals, or woodwinds, or what??

Or is it the Spotify stream coming through the iPad to begin with that is the issue making it sound largely the same?

@david_ten Thank you for the mention! @shtr74sims I just reached out directly through PM and am happy to chat. 

@audphile1

The comments above have been posted by just one person on this site...

My favourite was them telling some respected members numerous times to go bang their head against a corner wall.

@cakyol :

In my opinion, you could get a Chord Qutest for about 2k, which is one of the best DACs around, and save about 5k.

Believe me, you will never hear the difference, especially not worth a price differential of 5k, even if you have better hearing than the creature in the movie "A Quiet Place".

By that same logic, why spend $2,000 for a Chord Qutest, when you can get a “competently built” China DAC for ten TIMES less that? No?

You will not hear any difference anyways….. As YOU say

@jerrybj that is some serious research with hilarious quotes. What did you do? Tortured some ASR minion to get it all? LMAO

woosah dude it’s not worth it. 

You are delusional. At no point have I used language even close to profanity. Calling someone’s comments caustic is akin to profanity? That’s a joke.

The most dangerous person in the world is someone with a bit of knowledge.

Comments like...

• Fuses are used to prop up the egos of some super human beings
• Expensive cable is for fools
• Power cables do NOT affect amplifier sound
• Most contributors here are superhumans who can hear sounds that do not exist.
• There is no such thing as an audio network switch
• This is catnip for the superhumans on this thread who claim they can hear a difference :). Keep on spending, good laughing material. Anyone who claims they can hear it is either very gullible to marketing or from another planet or on some psychedelic substance.
• Power conditioners are all snake oil and are NOT needed.
• İt is a joke selling a $100 switch to be audiphool modified.So many gullible people around it is simply amazing.
• Actually if you use it in the arctic in a vertical orientation with two polar bears looking at it, the sound is phenomenal.
• If you are hearing a difference it is all in your mind.
• What makes a DAC so expensive: Audiophiles who think that the more expensive a product is, the better it must be....
• If you think otherwise, you are either delusional and/or very gullible to the power of suggestion from marketing folks
• Another snake oil subject. I do NOT believe power cords matter either.
• A $50 cable is good enuf
• Fuses do NOT contribute to the sound in any way AT ALL.
• My cables cost a whooping $50 ant they are perfect. As long as shielded, every cable is perfect.
• When will the audiophools stop fooling themselves and realize the exaggerated placebo effect ?
• Fuse believers should please repeat after me, while slowly and periodically banging your head against a corner wall...
• Anyone who thinks a fuse changes the sound, suffers an inferiority complex, which manifests itself in them feeling superior to everyone else thinking they hear differences.
• Audiophile network switches are snake oil.
• most of the audiogon contributors are indeed delusional :-) That is not a putdown but reality.
• Forget this fuse bull s..t
• Some of you seriously need help. I can recommend a good audiologist and/or a psychiatrist.
• We are simply trying to help some delusional parties who claim they hear voices which do not exist, by introducing them to reality :-)
• The reviewer is either dreaming/hallucinating or had mismatched impedances in his cables in the first place.A $10 coax will work just as fantastic.
• Audiophools judge mostly by price.

In the end, there is no help available for a zealot with a closed mind.

Reach out to @blisshifi and look at his T+A 200 related posts.

Not to throw a wrench in the DAC world, but what does everyone think of the T+A 200 DAC ? 

@jjss49 Hey, thanks for the heads up. I was not looking at it like that. Appreciate it.

op

Sir, I can get one for 7k NIB from a dealer. That is part of why I posted this to begin with, but thank you.

my point in putting that there (although it is deleted now) is to say that if you can buy a new one from a dealer for 7 grand, that it may not be too far off the used market trading price for the unit, and thus, if you are willing to make the effort to resell the unit if you don’t like it as much as you hope, that there would be a small or zero loss money-wise

good luck on your search

useful reminders and frames of reference here-in... 

hobbies are enjoyed around the world at varying resource levels... key is frame of mind, respect for others choices, not assuming your personal experiences bear all relevant answers and perspectives

Linn DSM

@jjss49 Sir, I can get one for 7k NIB from a dealer. That is part of why I posted this to begin with, but thank you.

Is the sound quality differential really worth the extra $3-5k ?

@cakyol I would assume that:

• Asking people with 5-7 $k DACs should get an answer of  “yes”.
• Asking people with 100-2k DACs should get the answer of “no”, or “maybe”.

@audphile1

Good to know you like the Bricasti. However, it seems way out of my budge at about between $5k - 7k from what I have seen online.

Is the sound quality differential really worth the extra $3-5k ?

That is where I am having difficulty in justifying it. Plus.. I agree my older ears are probably not worth anything more than the $2k I was prepared to spend for the Qutest.

@cakyol Qutest is an excellent DAC. I had it and I can vouch for it. And you can believe what you believe but that doesn’t make it a fact. Chord has Hugo TT2, DAVE and the M-Scaler for a reason.
I have no experience with Meitner so I can’t speak to how it sounds and whether or not it’s better than the Qutest, but I can tell you with all certainty that my Bricasti M3 is considerably superior in every respect. You need a trained ear, the room and the system capable of resolving these improvements and you will hear it. The Qutest isn’t an end game DAC by any stretch of imagination.

@jerrybj

Interesting that you have to get personal and use language close to profanity.

I guess you cannot argue in an adult way. Maybe I touched a nerve and deep down you agree but cannot accept that your hearing is not as perfect as you would like it to be.

The fact that most people may not agree with me does not refrain me from writing what I believe. Maybe you like going with the flow and are afraid to write unpopular opinions but I am not.

Cheers.