"But that is reality, audiophiling is a lot like wine tasting, the more you know you spent the better the wine tastes. So that means if you want your system to sound better, upgrade your cables and it will... I’m saying that upgrading your cables WILL make a difference if you want them to, it is purely psychological." I you actually believe that there's no difference between wines and what's perceived by those that can tell you, where a good wine was grown, the vintage, etc, "is purely psychological", you obviously know as much about THAT subject, as you do about Physics. Stick with your Ripple or Boone's Farm(not to mention: zip cord) and save your money! https://winefolly.com/review/how-to-taste-wine-develop-palate/
DO CABLES REALLY MATTER?
Yes they do. I’m not here to advocate for any particular brand but I’ve heard a lot and they do matter. High Fidelity reveal cables, Kubala Sosna Elation and Clarity Cable Natural. I’m having a listening session where all of them is doing a great job. I’ve had cables that were cheaper in my system but a nicely priced cable that matches your system is a must. I’m not here to argue what I’m not hearing because I have a pretty good ear. I’m enjoying these three brands today and each is presenting the music differently but very nicely. Those who say cables don’t matter. Get your ears checked. I have a system that’s worth about 30 to 35k retail. Now all of these brands are above 1k and up but they really are performing! What are your thoughts.
859 responses Add your response
| Post removed |
"Our ears and brain have very short term audio memory." ?? Some people must have one helluva time, recognizing who’s called them on the telephone then(sorry for your inability). A good man understands their own limitations. A wise man understands: everyone doesn’t share them. Can you tell if you're listening to Albert King, or BB King? I’ve been tuning my guitars, without any kind of tuning aid, perfectly in pitch, for the past 5 decades(+). Virtually all the EXPERIENCED guitarists I know, can tell you whether they’re hearing a Fender Strat, a Tele or a Les Paul, without looking and even what pickups are being used. Ditto, with drummers and real Turkish Zildjians vs Paiste vs Sabian. The same applies to hearing the differences in drum skins/heads(ie: Remo vs Evans and even the various iterations, within brands, once they’ve heard them). Such would have a hard time, if they couldn’t remember how their drums/guitars sounded, before the skins/strings lost their resonance. I could continue, but- if one has no experience in such matters, it’s impossible for them to(or, at least, unlikely they would) grasp the concept. So- it would be a waste of keystrokes. |
bac2vinyl Power cables can not make a difference…Can not convince me that the power cables that came with my Marantz MM8077 or my Parasound A21 are mediocre. Why would engineers design a product that its only purpose in life is to produce good sound with cheap power cords? >>>>>You ask, Why would engineer design a product that’s only purpose in life is to produce good sound with cheap power cords? Well, let’s look at the options, shall we? 1. They don’t care about how their product sounds. 2. They don’t believe in power cords or fuses. 3. They can’t hear the difference. 4. They CAN hear the difference but figure, the hell with it. 5. The cost of a good power cord raises the cost of the product too much. 6. They never heard of aftermarket power cords. They aren’t audiophiles, they’re engineers. |
I personally can't necessarily say with 100% certainty that cables make a difference. But, I will say that if you are going to invest a significant amount of money in your system, then why not finish it off with great cables (as reflected in the eye of the buyer). To me, the fact that there are all sorts of cable options at all price points makes this a fun hobby/pass time. I have owned Audio Art, DH Labs, Blue Jean, Voo Doo, Audioquest, Wire World, Clarus Crimson, Signal, etc They are all respected companies that offer great cables - some expensive and some not so expensive.
|
I am also at the stage in my gear collecting where I’m trying to tweak everything to it’s maximum performance. So, I recently replaced the XLR interconnects between my CD player and preamp and preamp and amplifier. I had about a $350 budget per set and stuck with it until my final decision was made. This is about a 300% increase in cost from the original cables. I started by listening to several songs I know well and use when I want to really show off the performance of my system. Then I replaced the CD to preamp cables first. I instantly noted there was more clarity, increase in timbre and depth to each of the songs when played back again, it was subtle but apparent. I then replaced the preamp to amp interconnects. This was where most of the changes happened! I’m not that good at using audiophile technical terms, so at the risk of mis-conveyance in description, I will simply say I am very happy with my purchase! My previous cables were Audioquest Diamondbacks, the new cables are Shunyata Venoms. The Diamondbacks were coloring the system, making everything too warm, while they did great for there cost, I wanted more accuracy. My preamp is tube and my amp is ss. The Venoms have brought a great balance to my system now and it doesn’t sound colored in the least. The great thing I’ve discovered with tube gear is that they are less fatigueing on the ears, so I’m getting great accuracy now with no fatigue, making it more an more difficult to break away from my listening sessions. |
Power cables can not make a difference…Can not convince me that the power cables that came with my Marantz MM8077 or my Parasound A21 are mediocre. Why would engineers design a product that its only purpose in life is to produce good sound with cheap power cords? Also, please explain how three feet of power cord somehow improves the electric that it is receiving from 100 ft of romax cable that is running through your home... |
dynaquest4 Our ears and brain have very short term audio memory.There’s a shred of truth to this, but it’s hardly an absolute truth. For example, I’ve haven’t listened to a Bob Dylan album in weeks. But I could easily distinguish his voice from Bruce Springsteen’s anytime. So, unless you have an AB blind test switch as a permanent part of your system, in the time it takes to switch out a set of cables, you will have lost the ability to accurately recall the exact sound of the previous cable or any subtle changes that the new cable "provides. "You don’t need a permanent AB switch to do blind tests of cables, there are comparators that offer that function. Wireworld makes one and there are others. Have you ever experimented with these to test your opinions that you state as fact? Of course, using an AB test - or better yet, an ABX test - is just one way to evaluate an audio component or cable. |
I set up a new listening room recently (McIntosh and Revel). I auditioned several different sets of interconnects and speaker cables (AudioQuest, Tara Labs, and Kimber). After several days of listening, I perceived very little (if any) difference in sound. However, my Salons sounded a tad bright in the mid range. I ended up spending a few hundred dollars on acoustic panels. This approach (working with the room) gave me very good results that were easily
noticeable. For me, cables should fall in the category of "Do NO Harm". |
I entirely agree about the importance of the quality of interconnects. I was fortunate to read comments made by the late Arnie Nudell on his own choice of MG Audio Design. Even so at the time their top of the line interconnects went for $1600 for a one meter pair-still to much for me on my limited budget. Later I learned that you can also ask for a half meter pair which go for $900. So I was finally able to try them out. They are simply amazing. In actuality top quality interconnects can by themself make as significant improvements in audio quality as the choice of audio components do. By the way Paul McGowan of PS Audio also uses MG Audio Design interconnects as well as their speaker wires himse;f. I have also read that some members of the Colorado Audio Society also are using them. Oh yes, if you are using a pair of mono amplifiers, that you can obtain a one foot pair of the MG Audio Design's top of the line speaker wires also for $900 for a pair. Simply I believe that MG Audio Design wire products can compete with the best of them, but at a fraction of the cost. Check with Paul McGown if you don't believe me. Also I have no financial or other dealings with their product other than being a totally happy customer. |
calvinj,This topic has been discussed many times on many forums. Would you buy a pair of 10K speaker cables for a pair of 6K speakers? On the other hand, if you have a pair of $200K speakers, would you put a pair of $10 speaker cables? If you believe that a pair of 9K speaker cables can improve your 6K speakers, go for it. It's your money. I use quality parts from Belden, Neutrik, Wattgate, Japan Senju, Grayhill, silver plated wire... to make my own cables with the lengths that fit perfectly to my system (McIntosh and Focal). |
An audio cable is a passive component. And like other components, it's job is to neither add nor subtract anything from the music program. On a substantially good system, a cable can improve the program only by keeping spurious outside interference to a minimum. A cable is completely passive. On a good system, any "work" done by the cable will be very subtle at best. Our ears and brain have very short term audio memory. So, unless you have an AB blind test switch as a permanent part of your system, in the time it takes to switch out a set of cables, you will have lost the ability to accurately recall the exact sound of the previous cable or any subtle changes that the new cable "provides. " |
bstbomber When choosing cables. Where would one go and how would you compare one to another? How big of a difference in sound is there from Hundred dollar cables to ten Grand in cables? Is there that huge of a difference? >>>Those are excellent questions! If there were easy answers we wouldn’t be having this discussion. |
🐑 shadorne Mountain of BS with absolutely no evidence, just anecodotal stuff. I have never seen an AES paper proving sound differences of various cables and won’t ever see one because it is all equipment and component performance related. >>>>Thanks for bringing up AES. They’re filled to the brim with old fogeys just like Dunlavey. They are vehemently anti-audiophile. |
shadornem Mountain of BS with absolutely no evidence, just anecodotal stuff. I have never seen an AES paper proving sound differences of various cables and won’t ever see one because it is all equipment and component performance relatedPerhaps you've never seen such as AES paper because you are not a member of AES. Would that be correct? Are you familiar with Richard Black's "Audio Cable Distortion is Not a Myth" treatise? It's from 2006. You might want to review it before you repeat your claim. If you're an AES member you can read it for free. |
I was having an issue with brightness in my system, and was attempting to address it through interconnects. It turned out that an isolation transformer was needed, but it took a lot to convince me to try it. After all, with conventional power supplies you are already using a transformer, a step down transformer in your power supply. Obviously they must be designed differently. Anyway, that left me with a lot of what I considered to be expensive cables, so obviously I had to make a determination as to which sounded best. Years back I had made ICs using LAT International's hookup wire, but as they are now defunct, I was unable to compare their products, which I believe would have at least been in the finals. Anyway, after spending several thousand dollars, I found that in my system, and there were a hand full of cables that were really tight contenders, Signal Audio's silver coated copper wire edged out the rest. I have always preferred a silver/copper mix it seems, but after hearing about the "diode" effect of silver clad copper wire, I was a little bit surprised that Signal Audio, the LEAST expensive IC's that I tried, beat cables costing many times as much. Mind you, impedance between devices, and a host of other issues come into play, so it's even possible that Signal Audio's cables may be the worst sounding cable in other systems, but when I buy cables in the future, Signal Audio's cables will be on my list of cables to try. Of course as I already have them in my system, I can just move them in order to test them with a particular device. |
Dunlavy is the poster boy for a sadly mistaken old dude who clung to his ancient beliefs of physics and reality to the bitter end in the face of a mountain of evidence. You can find quite a few old school guys around who are at least two paradigm shifts behind the power curve of reality. Whether it’s cables, cable directionality, aftermarket fuses, power cords, power cord directionality or whatever you can always find some manufacturers somewhere who stubbornly refuse to enter the 21st century. Wake up and smell the coffee ☕️ dude! |
@retearl What does he know? He’s only an engineer with highly sophisticated measuring technology at his disposal! Where is the evidence that he’s measured every cable on the market? What gives him the right to sit on his high horse and pontificate as if we’re all simpletons? The sheer nerve of people who dare to suggest that cables are the biggest money making con in audio makes my blood boil!! No seriously, thanks for that, and thanks too to Mr Dunlavy for having spoken up on the behalf of integrity. I like the first part of his closing paragraph. "I sincerely believe the time has come for concerned audiophiles, true engineers, competent physicists, academics, mag editors, etc. to take a firm stand regarding much of this disturbing new trend in the blatantly false claims frequently found in cable advertising." But as for the second part, it’s far too late regarding the press as far as I’m concerned. "If we fail to do so, reputable designers, engineers, manufacturers, magazine editors and product reviewers may find their reputation tarnished beyond repair among those of the audiophile community we are supposed to serve." |
Comments by one of Audio most brilliant minds. http://www.avsforum.com/forum/28-tweaks-do-yourself/36910-cable-nonsense-john-dunlavy.html#/topics/3... |
Oh goody another cable discussion! My approach has been within my budget to take a consistent whole of system approach over more than three years. Adding power chords interconnects and speaker cables from one supplier. Sometimes upgrading models as I go. End result? Far better soundstage blacken background and articulation of music. Cables are just one part of my total system approach. |
I've got McIntosh separates and Martin Logan Renaissance's and I have to give it a pretty big "no". Just get quality wires, but no need to spend $100's apiece, as cables and cleaners are way to over rated. The value of any improvement (if any) is certainly not worth the cost. Better off, saving the money up for better speakers some day or a quality amp, if you already don't have one. |
Do cables really matter?Yes. They transmit the signal. What are your thoughts. Do you really want to know the answer? Your original post is somehow, in advance, dismissive of those who say the cables don't matter. I find them, to some irrational level, increasing the pleasure of overall experience without changing the sound. Of course, provided that they are not cracked with loose contacts, or something like that. My hearing is fine. My experience with multi-thousand-Dollar cables very limited. |
I’ve been searching for the best sound for decades and what I’ve found is that electron transport is essential but that task is performed by the cheapest connections so long as they’re not compromised by faults. Bad shielding, mostly. 99+% of the hype for connections is snake oil. The biggest bang comes with dough spent on speakers, then on electronics. IMO, tubes/analog are more pleasing than digital, and great speakers are sublime Speakers are the key. |
As far as the actual physics of how the sound is sent a cable will NOT make any difference in sound. Now with that said I advocate for spending a decent amount of money on cables because they are still an important part of a system. Just get the cable that is nice enough that it doesn’t fray and you should be good and you will get the best sound. But that is reality, audiophiling is a lot like wine tasting, the more you know you spent the better the wine tastes. So that means if you want your system to sound better, upgrade your cables and it will... I’m saying that upgrading your cables WILL make a difference if you want them to, it is purely psychological. |
One has to assume, some pros have better aural acuity than others. That probably has even more to do with the quality of their productions, than the cables they use. But, no doubt, still has something to do with the cables they choose. Most of my favorite recordings are from the likes of Bob Ludwig, Bernie Grundman, Joe Harley, Dave Chesky and Doug Sax(RIP), all of which take(took) great pains, to satisfy the ears of their listeners and clients. Not to be contentious, but- sometimes, The Twain do meet and the results are wonderful, though the percentages DO leave a major chasm. I wouldn’t mind meeting Twain myself(long as she wasn’t singing Country, that is). |
@prof- You seem to believe that studios don't believe cables matter. Some of the better/best ones and(apparently) some of the best artists out there, do. Otherwise, they wouldn't be spending the big bucks, having their tracks laid down, in those studios. ie: As I mentioned in an earlier thread- "Both Ocean Way Recording and Bernie Grundman Mastering have used Cardas cabling.(can’t swear to what they’re using now). Ask them, if it really matters to you! You may have heard of a few of their clients. ie: http://www.berniegrundmanmastering.com/hits.php and http://www.oceanwayrecording.com/about-awards.php Then, there’s also Chesky: http://www.chesky.com/content/about-chesky " Needless to say, Sledgehammer Blues(nee: Audioquest Recording), uses Audioquest cables. I own quite a number of recordings, from the above mentioned. The quality DOES surpass what's commonly available(not that I believe cabling to be the sole contributor). That's just a part of the attention to detail, that the better studios exhibit. In the above quoted thread, geoffkait(hope you don't mind) mentioned this(so, NO: good sound doesn't have to cost a fortune): https://www.audiomediainternational.com/recording/abbey-road-upgrades-studio-two-with-van-damme-cabl... |
Prof, " Someone with the relevant expertise in EE could certainly predict to a significant degree what you hear"... Maybe (at best) Bigkidz, " I can get the same or better results much cheaper by changing resistors, capacitors or adding a simple filter choke to a component(s)"... That has been my experience as well. That stated IMHO IC's, SC's, PC's, are still a very important part of the overall result. |
Now the last 6 posts are sensible. I got the best components and speakers I could get and now I’m using the cabling for small tweaking. Been blesses to get the right mix that I have now. Geokaffit no harm no foul. You been posting goofy for a while. Lol. Enjoy your systems everyone. If you use chicken wire, generic Cable or Bentley Cable. As long as you are happy. |
Anyone reading this thread and just getting started in this hobby and do not have unlimited funds to buy anything you want ,buy the most expensive speakers you can afford to start with. Buy some Canare or Mogami . When funds become available ,then get your feet wet with boutique wires . You may end up being like I am and do not get a improvement with boutique wires . |
I became an audiophile before WWII, listening to Victor Red Seal 78s on my parents console using cactus needles. After WWII, I began building and assembling a series of systems, including using the Thiele Small parameters to construct my speaker cabinets. I transitioned from Heathkits to Scott, then quit assembling the components when I got hooked on Macintosh. I went from 78s to 45s to LPs, to reel-to-reel tape and finally to CDs. Over these years I discovered several truisms with regard to cables: (a) speakers need the largest diameter cables (12 or 10) terminated with top quality connects. Resistance and impedance should be as low as possible, especially if you have long runs between the amplifier and speakers: (b) Interconnect cables among tuners, CD players, turntables, DACs and preamps need to have shielding, and be terminated with top quality gold plated connectors; (c) cables from the preamp to the amplifier also should be shielded and equipped with top quality connections. I found, through trial and error, that premier Belden cables provided the best interconnects. The trick is to ensure the best connections between the cables and the connectors. I found that Blue Jeans Cable could manufacture superb cables, precisely to the lengths I needed, and with the appropriate connectors welded to the wires. Cost? Not nearly as expensive as many of the highly-advertised products. IMO, quite a bit of the hype and "reviews" for esoteric cabling is largely snake oil. To me, speakers - - and their placement - - are really what determine realistic Sound Quality. Just my thoughts from over 85 years of listening to classical music. YMMV |
Matter - IMO sometimes. I can get the same or better results much cheaper by changing resistors, capacitors or adding a simple filter choke to a component(s). After that, the cable simply is the last "adjustment" in my system. Like adding salt or pepper, they only flavor the sound a little in my system. I have also used a few cables that I would consider through away cables that sounded as good or better in some applications so each system is different and it comes down to testing what you prefer in your system. Happy Listening. |
calvinj OP Anyway quantum teleportation is goofy weirdo talk! Not bragging on the cost of my system. I have friends that bought system 4 or 5 times the cost of mine. I only mentioned cost to be relative for the readers. Anyway no need to brag on what I paid for my system. I think for me it’s not a lot. >>>Actually, Calvin, it’s not goofy weirdo talk since I don’t actually use cables or power cords in my system. Lighten up, the Quantum Teleportation talk is a joke. Are you trying to settle the Cable Debate all by yourself? |
@cd318. No one as far as I know in music or film claims that they can improve upon the original recording Isn't this what MQA claims to do? Though that subject is not to do with cables. However rubbish components and speakers (or just one of these connected with an expensive cable) will effect the sound. I do not believe a statement that "expensive cables make a good difference" is correct. There are many factors that can be in place effecting a listener's hearing judgement. I am confused as to the OP's question, or intention. Are you asking whether we, the readers or those also posting back, endorse the three cables you have enjoyed in your listening session? And therefore agree that these are well matched to a 35k system? And somehow, if we haven't heard them, we need our ears checked? Or our wallets cleaned out? You can make a photo or movie appear 'better' by photoshopping it or re-digitising a movie such as the original Star Wars. But the original data stays the original data. And enhancing it such as the above does make a better product, but does it meet the original creators intention? Indeed, cables may influence the sound of reproduction to the final end, the speaker, but is that sound the intention of the creator (artist, sound engineer or post production technician? Are you happy distorting the eventual sound or want to hear the sound as closely reproduced to the original? Are you happy with MQA as this is claimed by many digital listeners to be superior in sound? Sepia photos have a ageless quality about them. They are not the same photoshopped, except to correct the omissions in the original image. I expect that original recordings on vinyl are the same, closely matched to the original intent of the music, which is why they command a premium price over re-engineered pressings. Cables are designed to transmit relevant electrical data from source to end point. If there is interference in the middle, cartridge pickup to speaker driver, then expensive cable may amplify errors, or make no difference to the ultimate sound reached by each individuals ears. To finish with a question, "What are your thoughts?" invites a full appraisal of the OP's post. These are my thoughts. They do not invite response. |
