ETHERNET CABLES

@soix  I have tried “audiophile” Ethernet cables, I have tried UpTone’s Etherregen, and I have not heard any difference. Normally for my system I have Cat6A in the wall, and Cat6A from the wall to my NAD M50.2, but due to a renovation project, I am actually using wireless right now. 
 

the point here is that there is no theoretical possible improvement, there is no measurable improvement, and yet some people hear a difference, but others doesn’t. To me, this then clearly lies with listener, not the cable or switch. And if people want to spend thousands on dollars on Ethernet “improvement”, that’s up to them, it is a hobby, do what you like and makes you happy, but don’t argue that it is a night and day difference for everyone, reduces noise, and that it cleans up the stream from Qobuz or some other platform, because it doesn’t.

ethernet cables are unlike any other cable, digital or otherwise, in your system. 

I like silver plated for digital. Lots of choices. The "CaT" numbers don’t mean much for audio. AQ cinnamon or similar works for me.

PS  You have to be careful dealing with traditional network professionals.  they deal with different measures of success than audiophiles do.

@audphile1 +1 on this thread going south, too bad, I felt I was learning as much as the original poster 

@soix let us know your thoughts about wireworld starlight 8

@12many Thanks for being so cordial and accepting of another opinion. If only all differing opinions could be this way. Listen, how about you and I do something of a challenge? I’m gonna buy a generic Ethernet cable and compare it to my Wireworld Starlight 8. How about you do a trial for, let’s say, any $200+ Ethernet cable (Wireworld Starlight 8 would be optimal, heh heh) that you can either audition or return for free and let’s compare notes. Sound cool? All I ask is let’s both be totally open, honest, and objective to what we hear (and yeah, I know it’s one sample and a ton of variables so it ain’t exactly scientific — I get it). But @12many you seem like at least open to it and have at least a somewhat open mind, so I think it’s be super interesting to do this and compare notes. What do you say? Could be fun and interesting, no? We could even swap cables cause they’re so damn cheap to ship and compare notes on similar cables. Personally, I’d love to hear the honest opinions of two guys who come at this from two different perspectives. Nothing could be more valuable to me as a discerning audiophile cause when both sides agree I think we have something. Anyway, just a wacky idea that might be fun here. Or not. Lemme know what u think.

@soix 

Mostly what I am doing is sharing the technical details of what occurs inside Ethernet receiver.  There were some earlier posts that were providing technically incorrect information regarding Ethernet receivers and the signal.  I have always loved technology and discussing it with others.  I am not blinding walling off any suggestion of trying a cable.  Sure people can try.  If they perceive a difference then they should keep the cable.   I don't know if the sound improvement is due to improved sound waves or their perception and IMO maybe it doesn't matter as long as they perceive an improvement.  As you mentioned with CD's, there may be technical aspects we don't understand that could affect sound quality.  If there are, I can not identify them.  As I mentioned above, at the heart of this hobby is the enjoyment so if someone enjoys an expensive cable then they should buy it.  It never hurts to better understand the technology that makes our systems work and be a more informed buyer.  

... I don't consider you a peer...   😂😂😂

@fredrik222 ,

You can' offend me in the least despite your bravado so it wasn't me that got your post deleted. You try you best to look down your nose at me but it won't work as I don't consider you a peer but more of a nuisance.

Cables make a difference and unless you're willing to try it for yourself and not rely on motivated reasoning, you'll never really know.

All the best,
Nonoise

@soix this thread unfortunately had gone south…most likely can’t be salvaged. 

+1 @audphile1 and jibes well with my post above. 

Great analogy @12many

Now add to that crumpled piece of paper a pound of peanut butter sprinkled with sand that was packed into that parcel thoroughly coating every mm of that paper

You will work harder and longer to clean it up to determine that it’s a piece of blank paper 8.5x11. Now your hands are dirty with all the crap you just dealt with to understand what you’re dealing with, you reach into a drawer to pull out a clean piece of paper but you marred it because your hands were dirty. You have a perfect 8.5x11 piece of paper except the remnants of peanut butter and sand. That’s noise that you worked long and hard to clean up but ended up with on a final product.
All digital signal, data packets, etc is nothing but a digital signal being carried thru a copper wire by means of an analog signal that is susceptible to emi, rfi and ground noise. Are you venmoing me a dollar? Will my bank see it as a dollar or $.99.9999 On a receiving end the data packets unfolded properly.
However we’re talking audio and digital to digital and digital to analog conversion that happens inside your audio components. In an ideal world it would have no effect on the final product, all DACs would sound identical and cables wouldn’t matter. Unfortunately in our world it does not work that way and everything matters  

I have extensively tested several ethernet cables for several days of critical listening each. I eliminated the possibility for bias as after 1-2 days of listening you begin to hear the true character of the cable (or its effects on a component) without initial impressions getting in a way.
All cables I have tested sounded different. With one causing slight listening fatigue due to a slight hump in the presence region, another sounding hyper detailed which really worked out for me during low level listening, and another just being dead nuts neutral without emphasis on any particular band.
This is my experience in my system that I consider objective as I have spent considerable amount of time critically listening to each option and even reverting back to see if my results match.
The point I’m trying to make is the theories expressed in this and other discussions on this subject are simply what they are - theories and assumptions. Most if not all the contributors who angrily try to convince others that it cannot be because in theory it’s impossible, have never tried or tested it for themselves, don’t have the systems that can reveal these differences, don’t or can’t afford higher end cables or systems or just simply don’t have the ear to hear the changes between the cables.
It’s all good. But there’s no reason, especially without having any experience behind your belt, to tell me what I hear or don’t hear.

@12many ​​​​@fredrik222 I’d love to believe you guys that Ethernet cables make no difference, and I totally get where you’re coming from about the physics saying they should make no difference. But, I’ve heard enough people here say they not only make a difference, but a pretty sizable difference. In fact, everything in streaming seems to make a big difference. I started streaming from my iPad through an upgraded lightning to USB cable, which was a big improvement over the Apple Camera Adapter, but when I added an iFi Zen Stream things improved exponentially and actually surpassed spinning CDs. So, I bought a mid-priced Wireworld Starlight 8 Ethernet cable I’m gonna try out between my router and streamer and see if it makes a difference versus a garden variety Ethernet cable. If I hear no difference, I’ll just return it. But at least I tried and accepted MAYBE there’s something I didn’t know and just trusted my own ears. You know, CDs were “perfect sound forever” until they finally figured out how to measure jitter, timing, and noise that turned out to be BIG problems and why many audiophiles just stuck with vinyl until manufacturers figured it out. I might hear no difference between the two Ethernet cables, but if I hear a difference maybe sometime in the future they’ll be able to measure it and explain why. But if not I’ll just return the Wireworld cable and no biggie. I also just upgraded from a very decent Apogee WydeEye professional digital cable, which I’ve loved and stuck with for 10 years, to an Acoustic Zen MC2 that is notably better in absolutely every parameter — not even close in a direct A/B comparison. At some point in the past someone would’ve said there couldn’t be any difference because it’s just ones and zeroes (and yes, they’re both 75-Ohm cables), but here we are. I guess what I’m saying is, rather than just blindly walling it off why not just try a “better” Ethernet cable and if you don’t hear a difference just return it? What’s the harm? Worst case is you’ll just prove your point to yourselves, and if not you’ve benefitted from better sound quality and learned something. That’s a win-win either way in my book.

@nonoise  

My post was deleted when I asked you put up any evidence for your point. Regardless, there is no evidence for this. I've posted several links showing why noise in ethernet is a non-issue for residential applications. 

And you analogy about streaming TV vs Blu-Ray really shows your lack of understanding of anything relevant at all. The primary difference is bitrate for video and multichannel audio, and it has nothing todo with any type of noise at all. Cable TV is also using a lower bitrate, and is typically compressed with lossy compression. 

Here's one link that explains it to you:

Everyone keeps focusing on the cable and noise that may couple into the signal on the cable, but the key here is what occurs after the signal leaves the cable in the Ethernet receiver. In a 3 or even 10 foot run, a tiny amount of noise can couple into the signal. However, in the receiver, the received signal is compared to reference or threshold values and based on this comparison an entirely new signal is created. The received signal (and any noise) is effectively discarded. The newly created signal is output at the correct voltage level without the noise. This new signal could be transmitted for another 300 feet (or some other distance based on data rate) or passed on to the internals of the streamer for further decoding. At each hop in the communication path, the signal is re-created and retimed thereby creating an entirely new and clean signal.

While analogies are often imperfect (and I am told, mine are often terrible), think of a piece of blank 8.5x11 inch paper sent through the mail. The post office may crumple it or bend it such that when received at your house, it is crumpled (noisy). However, the person receiving the paper can tell that it is blank piece of 8.5x11 inch paper (albeit crumpled) and they get a brand new piece of paper out of the drawer and toss the crumpled paper in the trash. The received paper was just used as a reference to know what size of new paper to pull from the drawer. Same with an Ethernet receiver. It compares the voltage value of the received signal to a threshold value, to create an entirely new signal (without noise) and the received signal (with noise) is discarded. This is unique to the digital domain and does not occur in the analog domain.

In a PAM4 system, typical of Ethernet, the signal is transmitted at one of four voltage levels, such as 0, 1, 2, or 3 volts. The received signal will vary some what due to noise and effects of the channel. For example a signal originally at 2 voltes, that is transmitted over a long cable run, could be received at 2.2 volts or even 1.7 volts. It would be compared to the four voltage levels and an entirely new clean signal at 2 volts outputted, which is the closest voltage value. The original signal is effectively discarded. This is the benefit of digital communication over analog communication over long distances (and short distances).

Based on this method of operation, the tiny improvement a better cable provides will not yield a different outcome when the signal is re-created.  A signal transmitted at 2 volts might be received with a shitty cable at 2.1 volts and with a amazing cable at 2.08 volts (small improvement).  Both will be compared to the threshold values (0 volt, 1 volt, 2 volts, 3 volts) and the receiver will output a clean 2 volt signal.  

Peace.

@cleeds 

Never said so, but what I did say was there is no theoretical improvement from going crazy and using fiberoptic and other crazy things for a 10 ft run in a residential applications. Simply put, if you hear an improvement, you are making yourself hear it subconsciously in a residential application. 

It's different if you were to run 300 ft of ethernet through a factory as an example. But if you do that and plug into your streamer, you have other issues with audible noise drowning out your music. 

If you want to learn about how cables actually work in Ethernet:

https://www.cablinginstall.com/home/article/16467568/the-myths-and-realities-of-shielded-screened-cabling

@fredrik222 ,

Just as I thought: a lazy authoritarian. The evidence is out there for anyone to see yet you won’t take a look. I’ve been around long enough to know that anything I post or link to will be rejected, outright.

I’ve done it enough times here that I won’t do it anymore. You’ll just flat out reject it due to your confirmation bias. Check out the search engine, above, and take a gander but, as I already said, you’re a lazy authoritarian.

Tell me freddy, are you satisfied with your cable TV picture? It comes approximately the same way as your music. Have you compared it to say, the blu ray equivalent? Is not the blu ray much, much better? (I hope and pray you do or this is one big meaningless waste of time)

Now, do you think that the signal you’re getting is as pristine as from a CDP? Do you think all the extra boxes and cables don’t add something to the mix? You really should look into some kind of deprogramming course.

All the best,
Nonoise

fredrik222

... confirmation bias is a huge issue for the untrained. 

Measurementalists enjoy no immunity to confirmation bias; it is no less an issue for them.

@nonoise  Like I thought, you have no relevant experience or knowledge. 

You could have put up, and you could not, and you continue to make a fool out of yourself by not shutting up.

Again - "Show one example of where noise enters the any device in a residential setting via a 10ft ethernet cable, or just fade away."

@fredrik222 

Appeals to authority may work on the audiences you preach to but not with me. Heck, there are even some A'gon regulars who've tried that approach and it didn't work then, either. Some even have better credentials than you and lost the argument. 

That, and you seem to be one who likes to dish it out but can't take it. That doesn't fly so well here as well. And, confirmation bias is nothing new to bandy about like you're some kind of authority on the subject. It works both ways and applies to your  perceptions as well. Ever tried some introspection?

All the best,
Nonoise

@nonoise 

22+ years of experience in the field of computer networking is informing that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Show one example of where noise enters the any device in a residential setting via a 10ft ethernet cable, or just fade away.

But before you fade away, since you called me naive, maybe you want to do research on how the brain works. There is a whole field of psychology that focuses on this. Here's the definition of confirmation bias: "Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values"

Cat6 should do the job and I will also share something that improved the SQ in my system.

I had 2 Ethernet switches between my router and streamer and was running low $ Best Buy cables.  I got an entry level Ethernet cable from Audioquest and eliminated both switches by placing a home run from the router directly to my streamer.  I was careful to buy exactly the cable length I needed so there was no excess.  I'm guessing that the improvement came from eliminating noise from the switches and perhaps, to a lesser degree, better shielding from the higher cost cable.  The improvement in SQ that I most noticed was better detail in the soundstage.

Good Luck! 

@fredrik222 ,

You are one naive individual. Noise gets in even with "modern" equipment. You need to take your act on the road in the Catskills with an audience as out of touch as yourself.

And, to not see what 12many implied (or even worse, for you to intentionally give cover for) is pathetic.

All the best,
Nonoise

@nonoise the irony with your name…. Lol.

but to your comment, there are literally people in this post saying that they went from muddled mess with 44/16 streaming and voila new cable and its pristine 44/16 streaming.

and there is an extremely low chance that you are introducing any noise in your house, and again, this noise doesn’t leak anywhere into any component with modern equipment. Ethernet today is way too robust.

No one is calling anyone crazy, however, it helps to learn a bit how your brain works when you are talking about something that is physically impossible to make any difference. Your brain is influenced in many ways, and if you are not careful, it is easy to “hear” a difference with any change, confirmation bias is a huge issue for the untrained. 

@samgar2 👍

Well put, thanks!

@samgar2 I believe you had asked a question to get educated, take your system to the next level, explore and learn.
You have a variety of opinions here with some that are based on theories and some based on personal experience and objective listening within one’s system. I believe it’s easy to discern which is which. Don’t let anyone stun your learning process. This never got anyone anywhere.

just let it go @nonoise you will be annoying the ASR crowd and wasting your time. Looks like ASR site may have been down for maintenance or they all just took a wrong exit. 

I find it amazing that someone thinks that their 10ft cable at home can clean up a stream from thousands of miles away.

This has been shot down so many times now that it's become silly. No one is suggesting that one is cleaning up all the preceding miles of cables before it gets to your place. What one is doing is making sure that the gear is "seeing" what's at the outlet and addressing any noise issues introduced there. 

That argument is the lamest of red herrings.

As for 12many's clumsy way of saying it's all the in mind of the listener, which is another way of saying he's crazy and to let it be, is downright condescending.

All the best,
Nonoise

@jerrybj   

I don't find his posts be snarky.  A forum should welcome diversity in thought and input.  Every aspect of music reproduction is influenced by the technology and it would unfortunate to lose that perspective.  

This thread is an example of personal truth and absolute truth. One group really believes that the 3 foot network cable affects the sound and the other group greatly believes that it does not affect the sound. @fredrik222 is spot on, however at the end of the day, if a person perceives a better sound in their brain, perhaps that is all that matters. We all just want something that sounds (based on our brain’s interpretation) pleasing. This is a very interesting thread.

Hello Painter24.

I live in Richmond, VA- USA

I became a believer in conditioners affecting SQ quite by accident-bout a monster device to deal with tv issues and noticed better sound thereafter.

So I am in the camp that isolation is a good thing.

I have no idea whatsover whether and ethernet cable cd injure sound transmission or not or even if it cd at one place but not another.

I wd suggest that unlike other audio things it doesnt cost much to experiment and again unlike other audio equipment changes a cable that doesnt work for the audio as one hoped can still be used for other networking connections so not much loss overall.

I find it amazing that someone thinks that their 10ft cable at home can clean up a stream from thousands of miles away.
 

But, hey, each to their own, doesn’t matter that empirical evidence shows Ethernet cables do absolutely nothing, and it is not even theoretically possible to improve streaming with a network cable once you have good functioning network transmission,

@samgar2 Hi, re: buying Supra Cat 8; what country do you live in? 

@dpcoffey 

4 posts? And snarky with it?

Your supercilious attitude would fit in well at ASR.

@audphile1 You should try going to a networking forum and see how your beliefs are received :)

Come on folks, keep this friendly! We are all in this together.

@jerrybj 

apply the same rule to interconnects. You have cheap thin cables connecting everything, but in the last part of your signal you have SUPER expensive cables. Do you think that cancels all the negative signaling before? It’s the rule of lowest common connection (You can have 10 gig connections before, but if you have a 100 meg connection at the end then nothing else matters) 

@Jerrybj

agreed, ideally with an optimum impedance match.

I've read in a few places to make sure the last ethernet cable to your streamer is your best cable. Which I've done.

I'm pretty sure Pete at Triode Wire Labs does a 30 day guarantee for standard lengths.

My advice is, don't buy unless the sale includes a trial period, so you can decide for yourself it you hear a meaningful improvement. For even more fun, ask a few sharp-eared friends to visit (one at a time) and do a single-blinded test. We ALL are susceptible to suggestion and expectation bias.

Hello Audphile 1

Thanks for your feedback. Do you have any idea where I can purchase this Supra Cat8 cable with the Telegartner connectors

Thanks,

Sam

?

each time there’s a shielded cable, the sound is rough, stage height tanks, treble splashes, just a disaster.

OK, that is what you hear, and I can respect that. You’ve already determined that shielded ethernet cables are not for you. I’m cool with that. To each his own.

My 3 TV ethernet runs are under 75’, and during their travels to and from, run next to AC power cables, of which I don’t criss-cross at 90 degree angles (which I’ve never done). That is the main reason I went with Cat 8 for those runs (earth grounding on one end only). I’m also used to working in high RF radio station environments, so cable shielding comes naturally to me, and I already know the benefits of it. In the case of my shielded TV Cat 8 runs, I’m more concerned with packet losses, as compared to sound quality. So in my case, I can’t offer much of an opinion when it comes to sound quality involving those long shielded runs.

In the case of my audioquest 3’ Pearl ethernet cable; that has a very short run from the AT&T fiber optical modem/router to my desktop 3’ away. I understand that now to be a Cat 7 cable. I don’t even know if the shield is earth grounded at the component level, so I can’t really put up an argument there either. I do know (which I’ve already mentioned ad nauseam) that upgrading it, made an audio improvement (when streaming) over the standard patch cable I was using.

In the radio station environment these days, studios are now being connected via AoIP (as compared to balanced analog years ago), and many times use shielded ethernet cables to do that. I’m not sure this would be done if using shielded ethernet cables degraded sound quality (but heh, that’s radio, and I’m not sure radio stations are concerned about high quality audio these days).

@dpop  I’ve only looked at a few ’high priced’ ethernet cables and gave up after finding each one was shielded.

Being cable manufacturers, they didn’t specify if one end only was grounded. Even if the cable is grounded at one end the shield resistance will come into play and it’s more or less mechanical protection. Now this is a problem for length say 10m and over.

Short cables may not matter much, less than 2m, now there you could bond the two chassis together to avoid shield current, but like USB cabling that high impedance noise is difficult to remove.

I use the DX filters in pairs for the ethernet from the router PC, to the EtherRegen, each time there’s a shielded cable, the sound is rough, stage height tanks, treble splashes, just a disaster. Consequently all ethernet cables are UTP, Cat5e. Often tempted to use exotics, but if they are shielded, there’s no improvement, so why bother.

The Audioquest write-up is from the marketing department.

What? No! 😘

The first paragraph may have validity for analog signals but neither their long grain copper nor the polyethylene insulation will make an audible difference to a digital signal.

So then you’ve tried one, and not heard a difference in audio quality. OK, got it. It boggles my brain too, why changing out a little 3’ digital ethernet cable could in my case make an audible improvement. In talking with audio friends prior to purchasing it, they all said the same thing, "I doubt you will hear a difference," although the same friends said the same thing when I bought my first set of RCA Monster Cable interconnects a long time ago, and heard a difference in sound quality there too (maybe I need to seek out some new audio friends 😉). Remember, I’m just referring to like under $50 upgrades here, and still heard better sound when spending under $50. I’m not even referring to spending hundreds or thousands of dollars. Some may say just by plugging in new connectors, you may have wiped clean a connection. I say there’s probably some validity to your statement, because I know what an improvement can be heard through cleaning a connection can make, but this is not what took place in my little experiments that I just mentioned above.