First tube preamp recommendations (under $5k)

@axpert what have you compared the evo400 to ?

@invalid I talked to the space tech labs guy and the 1 thing I didn't like he wasn't willing to show me the internals (he claims since he doesn't want people to copy him). Its something I don't like about mcintosh either.

@ebm, I just realized the Vac is actually the older non-SE model. I did hope for the SE model. Also my local dealer (Angie's audio) told me that if I bought ARC or VAC used from someone (not her) that she would not give me any support (even paid support) so that makes me wary about getting ARC/VAC. Kevin at VAC told me to go to Angie and he wouldn't help either.

@soix, ya gonna look hard at teh don sachs, he gets lots of praise.

@dep14, really impressive you liked the c2700 over the xp22.

@elliottbnecombjr, Luxman is awesome and I'd love to own their TOTL tube pre or c900u. Not too interested in vintage though.

@knighttodd, good thought, will consider

@audioman58, @dmcneilr, ya I got AGD HE9 right now and its a solid preamp, used it for 4 years. Didn't realize their vacuum preamp is that good wow! Beating the evo400 is nuts.

@twodolphins, Atmasphere looks nice for sure.

TUBE PRE-AMP? - - -  No contest there.  PRIMA LUNA EVO400 
Pre-amp. You will love it !!

You need to check out Aric audio. They are a small Company on the East Coast, All American made, Point to point wiring, very good products and priced just right. His new top-of-the-line Motherlode 2 preamp is getting some buzz. I own one of his earlier top-of-the-line preamp and also his top-of-the-lineTranscend MM phono stage, I love both pieces.

I am using an ARC LS-26 with Pass Labs 30.8. Best sound quality I have found yet. 

All of the ones I’d recommend are already in here (EAR, Lamm, Atmosphere, Cary, CAT)…

I’ll throw in another vintage brand: Joule-Electra. Rich Brkich at Signature Sound (1-315-622-4137 and on Audiogon) can take care of you.

Modwright LS-100 or Modwright LS-36.5 is best choice in that price range. 

ARC Ref 3, best Aesthetix you can find, CJ, …. Just my bias….

+1

audio research and conrad johnson have not been stealing deaf people's money for 40+ years

the gear is built to last and sounds truly excellent

Maybe EAR 868 ,
in my opinion best bang for the bucks pre .

I thought the Lamm LL2 Deluxe sounded very natural with good clarity and extension.  I would look for a used LL2 or LL2.1 - Deluxe models.

Backert all the way.  Try the Rhumba Extreme.

Pretty much anything by Audio Research is a good bet.  Used ones are usually just as good as new ones.

I would try a few before making a final decision if I were you.  You are probably going to keep it for a while, so take your time.

Cheers!

I like what the ARC 5se does for my Pass 260.8 and ended up putting lesser ARCs in my other systems, a LS28 with a ML, and a LS17se with my Perreaux 3150. All have replaced other tube (Quicksilver) and ss (Classe) gear

I strongly disagree with avanti1960. I am currently using a Rogue RP-7 and have found it to have great dynamics and that I got just the right amount of "tubey sweetness" by changing the front pair of 12au7. Those are the only colored tubes in my chain, everything else is as neutral as I can get. It's dead quiet, has great functionality, and sounds tremendous for the money I feel

Atma Sphere MP1 or MP3. These are world class tube preamplifiers, very versatile and easy to use. I've tested many european tube preamplifiers (I live in Paris) but finally I've settled down with Atma Sphere. No changes for me any more. 

Don Sachs probably beats everything up to $6k

Audio gd Vacuum HE1 XLR. Crazy overbuilt for its modest $3k price tag and sonically exquisite. Ended up replacing my PrimaLuna EVO400 even though that wasn’t the plan. It surprised me and sounded that good. 

ARC Ref 3, best Aesthetix you can find, CJ, …. Just my bias….

audioman58, I’ve heard the exact amp you speaking of. Balanced and none balanced. BOTH were sent back in leu of Cary’s preamps. Actually my C20s or 2500 have better SQ. I’d compare it to an older C220, but not the SQ of a C2200, 2300, 2500, or 2600.

It’s a line stage with a bunch of expensive parts.. Guess what it has a pretty high distortion level. The old C220 is 1/10 the noise on a scope.

Could have been poorly matched valves.. I didn’t try to clean it up.. Neither did my buddy.. He picked up a Cary SP98 and 94 both very nice pre. Tad low on the gain for me, though.. Gee they are good sounding pre IF you can get GREAT 6N7 matched QUIET valves for the SP98 the 94 is 12AU7 and 12AX7.. IF you find great valves it is a real game changer.. Cary more so than any amp I’ve EVER used..

A SP94 is 2k all dolled up..

I also think the lower gain on the Cary contributes to a very quiet noise floor.. They are a QUIET amp.. Power or pre..

invalid I’m with you they are a HIGH quality piece of GREAT tech at a super duper price.. I’m getting ready to get the EQ. I’m gonna THINK on the LAST 2 preamps I will ever buy.. They will be one of two maybe 2 of TWO. Decware and them... very close for a pure tube pre AND a good valve complement. BOTH use very good transformers too. Rule one on valves. "GREAT transformer", period.. :-)

Regards

None of the Tech is cheap either.. BUT Art can be expensive, AY?


It's not cheap, but it's way cheaper than the big name brands top of the line components.

This is a no brainer this preamp beat the very good Linear tube 
preamp, as well as a excellent Audio valve preamp this is built better then anything I have seen under $10 k . Underwood Wally carries it .this company I overlooked ,before ,but  now they are sold and serviced in the U.S .the whole line the last 2 years is totally reengineered i just bought the excellent R8 mk2 dac ,and heard this preamp with a pass labs 250 ,and the same dac I bought it was Excellent on every level ,and all top shelf relay controlled for under $3800 a Steal. You would have to spend well over 2 x the cost to come close .if I didnot just buy a new Coda integrated amp I would buy this for my 2nd system .
https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/amplifier/preamplifier/audio-gd-vacuum-he1-xlr-tube-preamplifier...

invalid, I'll tell you what, I contacted STL they responded QUICKLY, I asked a simple question and got a simple answer. I wanted balanced input on his Tube EQ TEQ-100. He responded we will design one for you and call it TEQ-200.

THAT is the answer a buyer/user/tinker want to hear..

Same reason I like Decware, You want it we got it.. JUST ask..

Point to point is great so is a well designed logic board, NOW combine the two, that is the real trick.. The best of ALL worlds and still short, sterile, QUIET pathways.

VTL did it, Herron kind of did it.. FET/Tube combo

None of the Tech is cheap either.. BUT Art can be expensive, AY?

Regards

A winning circuit design will sound better with cheap parts than a average circuit design with top notch parts.

Simple - buy a used Counterpoint preamp just not the slim line SA-3 or SA-5.  All you need is a SA1000,  Send it to me for modifications - AC filter choke, Audio Note non-magnetic resistors - Amtrans resistors, Nichicon capacitors - maybe Audio Note capacitors - V-Caps, upgrade the volume control.  Now you don't have to spend $5K or more.  Just peak inside any of the recommendations above.  See if anyone of those preamps have any of these parts inside!  Short answer - not one of them.  Why spend $5K on a preamp that uses below average parts.  If you want I will even remove the Counterpoint guts and build you a point-to-point wired version which will just blow your mind.

Happy Listening.  

Either the most expensive Vincent Audio “Pho” or a Pro-Ject Tube Box. I’ve owned both; think they are more or less equivalent in sound. 

@knighttodd. 
+1

Audio Research Ls28se. Very dynamic and great sound. Easy to use and plenty of balanced and single ended connections. 

I'm in Luxman Love, just got their 10 wpc tube amp, SQ-N150.

Luxman, NOS CL35, MKIII Preamp

They say once in a lifetime, it’s beyond rare, that’s for sure

https://www.ebay.com/itm/265067657600?hash=item3db7437980:g:G-kAAOSw-b1d8B6G

same unit, slightly used

https://www.ebay.com/itm/294195745377?epid=1594839865&hash=item447f6ed261:g:q4cAAOSwOyRgrqLk

Current Production Tube Integrated LX-380

http://www.luxman.com/product/detail.php?id=16

Are you considering Vintage?

After what I did for my main system, I might suggest you consider buying a restored vintage unit, or, ’original condition’ with good clean faceplate/glass/controls, have it shipped directly to Audio Classics (or someone you know), have it restored and then sent to you. I bought a McIntosh mx110z Tube Tuner/Preamp in original condition. Got it, sounded great, ... after a year or so I figured, what the heck, I’m going that way, I’ll drop it off. The best thing they did aside from .... is replace all the rca jacks with new gold plated ones. Of course FM alignment, replace a resistor there, a needed faceplate light bulb. Point is, had I been thinking ’long’ I would have had a greater start and skipped one leg of shipping. Those old jacks are a weak point I discovered.

this one says restored, but the faceplate is badly worn, I would avoid that.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/274770994695?hash=item3ff9a0a607:g:qRoAAOSwMDJgUBOg

the model I chose, in a wood case

https://www.ebay.com/itm/203492974627?epid=1158588361&hash=item2f61206023:g:74IAAOSwpqBgxnTi

Since you mention Don, his preamp would be a contender at far below 5K.



It is definitely worth the money, but I don't believe it would compete with the higher end model space tech labs stuff.

Since you mention Don, his preamp would be a contender at far below 5K.

Oz

Don Sachs


Don Sachs used to own one of space tech labs preamps, I believe it was the last preamp he sold after he started making his own, he only had one of the middle of the road space tech preamps.

Cary, Raven, AH Qualiton 20i, Quicksilver.... especially if $5000.00 is the hard ceiling and you are looking at Rouge, Prima Luna,.
You may want to look Hybrid like Pathos Logos or Dual Classic Mk3 in mono.
lots of choices.

Used McIntosh C2600 or a used Audio Research would be the way I would go.

Had a Pass XP22, it was excellent.  But I prefer my C2700 with the built in DAC.  Slightly larger soundstage, and the tubes add just that special something.

Note, used it with both my Pass 250.8 and MC462.  

While the amps were different, I noticed more of a difference between the pre-amps.  

BIG valve preamps are gonna be 'ALL THAT" soon enough..


The big valves are only part of it, he uses ac heaters, which sounds a little warmer, but not too warm, and true point to point wiring. Some manufacturers use hand wiring, but not true point to point wiring.

want to explore what tubes can do to the sound (slight warmth, biggest soundstage, better layering etc etc). 

Given what you’re looking for I’d add the Don Sachs linestage that fully tricked out is around $2500, and he offers a trial period that’s obviously nice to have.  Single ended only though.  More on the slightly cooler/less warm side the LTA microZOTL pre would also be well worth a look in your price range.  Best of luck. 

OP, if you can source locally a SLI1 ref I would check that out. I have owned CAT preamps for many years, IMHO there really is nothing better in tube preamp land. 

"Space-Tech Laboratory - High-End Audio" http://www.thebestamp.com/Tube_Pre-Amps/Reference_Series/Reference-3.php

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I been looking at these guys for a while..

invalid is REALLY on to something.. You really aught to look.

BIG valve preamps are gonna be 'ALL THAT" soon enough..

My next one WILL be STL and their BIG valve EQ.. Cary is close with the old 6N7 stuff.. 6N7 valves suck, that is the truth of it all..

WAY too many bad ones out there.. vs WAY to many GREAT big valves like KT88, EL34, 6V6s. 6n7s are ok at best..

Regards..

Im sure a used Vac Sig mk2 se would sound wonderful great sound and a great co as well.

Yes, I do. I would find a way to listen to one.. see if you like the sound. My first good preamp was a used Audio Reseach. It took me out of the preamp market for over ten years… and slowly over the decades I was swayed to an all ARC system. I owned Pass amps for 40 years… the last an x350 for over 18 years… I got back in trade very nearly what I paid for it (net cost $500 for 18 years)! You can see my systems by clicking on my user name. I used ARC preamps / Pass amps for decades.

A good approach is to make a short list of great ones… then find which ones you can audition (car trip to a nearby city?). You will not be able to hear all of them. Then read the reviews really carefully of what you heard… then you can read the reviews of what you have not to see if you are interested. Each of these brands have “house” sounds… so over time they get better converging on more accurate … but with the same house sound. So, if you find your “house” then you can look for what you can afford.

@ghdprentice I think you might be right. It might be better to reach higher. I also like the idea of a known quantity that I can turn around and sell if needed.
Is CJ considered at the same performance level as ARC and VAC?

Preamps are really critical components to a system… of course they all are… but it is the component you build a system around. This is also the perfect place for tubes… you can put a really magical quality (not artificially so) by the careful choice of a great tube preamp. You have a world class amp. I can’t help but think you have greater aspirations for your system overall. In which case you might consider reaching up another tier by buying used. Something more matching the quality level of your amp.

Real high end stuff is built like a tank, highly reliable, and is bested less readily than lower end stuff (like your amp). Maybe used, Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, VAC… there are more. The next tier up has significant sophisticated gains in sound quality.

"Space-Tech Laboratory - High-End Audio" http://www.thebestamp.com/Tube_Pre-Amps/Reference_Series/Reference-3.php


This preamp can run it 150 tubes, you can also buy a separate power supply  to power it, just plugs right into the rectifier socket on the preamp. This power supply can use big rectifier tubes like 874a Mercury rectifier tubes. I have one of his lower line preamps, which sounded great on it's own, but had a way better soundstage and instrument separation with the super rectifier power supply.

@ebm I can get VAC Signature mk2se for about $7200

Guys thanks so much for the awesome suggestions. Lots to think about.
@avanti1960 You like the Cary better than the RH5?
@decooney gonna look hard at cary
@daveyf I can get a CAT Sl1 ref locally for about $2500.

Owned the RP7, disappointing sound, did not respond well to tube swaps. Lacked dynamics and transparency. The RH 5 sounded so much better to my ears (yes, the R "H" 5 linestage.
Currently using a Cary SLP-05, sounds spell bindingly good.
Tube rectifier and R-Core transformer.  
Some I know have the Modwrights, they love them.  

@smodtactical There is a bit of an underground group of Pass amp owners who've found a synergy running Cary Audio SLP-98 and SLP-05 preamps fwiw.  During a brief speaker building chat, Nelson confirmed for me he has many customers doing this successfully. Another option to the great suggestions above. I still run my SLP98, works well with many amps I've tried pairing it with.   

You won't beat a Herron Audio VTSP-360 line stage. There is one out there with all recent revisions for under $5k (retail $6650).

Used VAC ASAP!!

Atmasphere MP-1 or MP-3.

Or look at the offerings from Aesthetix.  You can go a lot better than what you're currently thinking of.

If you can find a used CAT preamp in your budget, I would suggest you strongly consider it.