Has anyone here set up a system with tiered subwoofers handling different bass spectrums?
Has anyone here set up a system with tiered subwoofers handling different bass spectrums? I currently have bookshelf speakers fully crossed over to a pair of smallish symmetrically placed, force-canceling stereo subwoofers at 160Hz, and I am thinking about adding a big, ported sub and fully crossing that over to the stereo ones at 60Hz. My setup will easily allow me to do it (I have a miniDSP Flex that is applying DIRAC Live room correction to my current 2.2 setup downstream and that preamp is handling the full bass management duties right now, so the miniDSP only sees a pure 2.0 system at the moment--I can just attach the new sub to the second pair of outputs and use the miniDSP to handle this level of the bass management). Am wondering if anyone else has tried this? I am looking to improve bottom end impact and extension with the big ported woofer (looking at SVS PC-2000 Pro) since the stereo ones are not currently reaching down as low as my previous sub (currently a pair of SVS 3000 Micros; before these, I had a single SVS SB-3000).
-Ed
I do this, using two M&K mx700 in stereo with high pass filter set to 40hz, no low pass filter on the Monitor Audio speakers, and a M&K v200b sub with the high pass filter set as low as the dial can go - not real sure but id expect below 30 hz. the two 700s are stacked vertically. these three have really helped my 10x11’ room suffer minimally from pressure nodes and it goes as deep as any material i have to play. |
I do, but I don't use the subs for music. The Yamaha RX-Z9 feeds a dBX subharmonic booster and this feeds a Crown PSA-2XH in bridged mono mode producing ~800 WRMS into the 12 ohm load of the 15" JBL W15GTi.
But even this doesn't go down as far as my Sunfire Signature and on the second receiver sub output, this is used to fill in from <20 Hz - ~60 Hz using the internal filter. The levels are set using an RTA. |
Not to beat a dead horse, but run the mains full, not crossover at all. Adjust the subs to fill in, agree, it should be around 80hz or less. Adding another sub, in just the lower spectrum would be difficult, hard to integrate. If you are just looking for bass slam, just ditch your subs, and get 2 new ones that will give you what you are looking for. |
@mapman Wilson Audio's WATT/Puppy combo is a known example where the top two-way and the bass drivers are essentially separate speakers, but built to be a combination with matching crossover built in.
@avanti1960 Take a look at this chart: Notice the increase in distortion at 200Hz and down (300Hz-700Hz range is what it is, no reasonable way to resolve that part) at these volume levels and up. By crossing over to a proper sub at 160Hz, I am offloading all of that from the LS50 Metas, and since the mid/low driver is the baffle for the tweeter (being a coaxial 2-way design), this also significantly cuts down on distortion for the higher frequencies as the tweeter's baffle is not experiencing very high excursion in order to produce deeper bass. -Ed |
How does it sound when you cross the KEFs at say 80 Hz? Most likely the distortion comes from the enclosure and not the drivers. I had the original LS50s and thy sounded excellent in the bass department because they have a natural high pass filter built in- no need for filtering the signal they receive. As to your question, I believe REL stacks do something similar and on paper it has the chance to sound excellent. More than you might want to spend but the theory still has merit. |
Hmm most speakers worth consideration should go down below say 100hz. Not to say one couldn’t explore a three box external crossover solution somehow. Could be an interesting if not very practical approach if done well. Something different maybe. Any speaker vendors sell such a pre-integrated design out of the box? Practically I’d prefer to handle large heavy speakers in three parts of even two rather than one big heavy thing that is impossible to handle practically. For example with my big Ohm F5s, the drivers are all self contained in a “can” that detaches from the cabinet “base” making overall shipping and handling much easier than most of comparable size and weight. Very unique ! |
Okay, so it seems a few people are missing some aspects of my setup here... Firstly, the 3000 Micros are fully crossed over at 160Hz; slope is 30dB/Oct for high- and low-pass filters, and completely time aligned via REW scan/manual delay set for the speakers. This isn’t some half-assed setup where my subs and speakers are overlapping for multiple octaves. Do it right, or don’t do it at all. Secondly the 3000 Micros are a pair that is symmetrically placed extremely near to each sub’s matching speaker, so localization is a complete non-issue and in fact imaging is significantly superior to a single sub placed anywhere. I wish I could figure out how to post images in this forum so that you can see. I actually have a paid of IsoAcoustics ISO-155 stands arriving today to really get them even better aligned with each other. Their acoustic centers are exceptionally close to avoid problems like comb filtering and poor integration--essentially, the design is meant to mimic something like Blade 2 Metas or R5 Metas (granted, I am sticking with at 160Hz crossover since that is where my room's Schroeder frequency is, instead of crossing higher which would better simulate the aforementioned 3-way speakers). Finally, I am acquiring the PC-2000 Pro open box at substantial discount. This one will be fully crossed over to the 3000 Micros with a 36dB/Oct slope. I am trying to decide if I want to do that at 50Hz, 55Hz, or 60Hz. I debated this model against other models for quite a while and am looking to keep to a single unit. The down-firing driver of the PC-2000 Pro combined with rear-firing port will be even better protection against potential localization compared to front-firing drivers and ports, and of course this sub will provide significantly greater extension and slam than the pair of 3000 Micros do. Relieving those little woofers of this deep bass/extreme excursion frequency range will also further improve their performance up to their upper band. -Ed |
Several thoughts — as others mentioned your crossover is set way too high. Your speakers I believe go down to 79Hz (-3dB) so I’d try setting it maybe around 80Hz - 90Hz and see what that does. Also, I’d be hesitant to mix a ported sub with sealed as it can introduce integration issues with group delay, etc. Last, for only $50 more you can get a pair of SB1000 Pro subs that go down to 20Hz (-3dB) and have a smaller footprint/presence than the PC2000 Pro. But a huge benefit of doing this is that you’d now have a Swarm array (4 subs), which many experts recommend as one of the best subwoofer setups possible for optimal bass a mitigating room issues. That’s absolutely what I’d do. Hey, it’s SVS so if it doesn’t work out just send’em back so no harm no foul. Just my $0.02 FWIW, and best of luck. |
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@fatdaddy2 @gdnrbob please don’t confuse me (the OP) with gdaddy1; I never said anything about AI. It has nothing to do with the main topic of discussion. -Ed |
@gdnrbob you apparently missed my post just above the GPT post. I said basically the same thing as you. HOWEVER, I thought it interesting the reply from GPT.
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My system works this way- the woofers in the Avantgarde Duo are two 10" dynamic drivers with horn loaded drivers for the mid and tweets. Those woofers don't go down very deep and I found it necessary to adjust them so they cohere with the mid-horn, making the bass reticent. I added large 15" subwoofers, fed from my line stage that I DSP'd and dialed in to they sound continuous with the main speakers. The subs roll off at 55hz on a steep slope 24db/octave. In that sense, I'm using multiple woofers that cover different ranges. I would not call the integrated Avantgarde woofers "subs" in the true sense. |
When you take the 'advice' of a chatbot, you should be somewhat skeptical of the response. Mostly because a bot doesn't know everything, just what it has been fed. Introducing DSP can introduce time and phase issues, using steep slopes, can introduce the same problems. These issues have been understood by many speaker manufacturers. Trying to make a bookshelf speaker perform like a tower speaker, by adding subwoofers is unrealistic. You would be better served by buying a speaker that can perform to the standards you are looking for. If that isn't in the cards, because of budget. Then just enjoy what you have and save your money. I don't want to p*ss on your dreams, but, speaking as a fellow audiophile with limited means, I think I know what you are trying to do. I'd be happy to help you with your journey. PM me. Bob
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Here's what Chat GPT said... Yes, what you're describing is essentially a tiered or hierarchical subwoofer array, and it can absolutely work if implemented thoughtfully—especially since you already have the tools (like a miniDSP Flex and Dirac Live) to manage crossover points and timing alignment properly. You're not alone in exploring this kind of setup, though it's still relatively rare in the home environment due to complexity. Summary of Your Idea:
Why This Can Work:
Considerations & Tips:
Others’ Experience:Yes, people have done this in high-end home theater or 2-channel listening setups, particularly:
They generally report:
Final Thought:You're on a promising path. You already have the right equipment and understanding to try this successfully. The PC-2000 Pro is a great choice—high output, ported depth, and fits nicely below 60Hz without stepping on the Micros’ strengths. Just be methodical in integration, and you’ll likely get the best of both worlds: tactile deep bass and responsive, musical upper bass. If you'd like, I can help guide the exact crossover and delay settings once you get the new sub. Ask ChatGPT |
Let's face some facts. The KEF LS50 don't do bass well. On their own they lack bass extention and begin to distort. You are compensating for their inability to produce bass and dynamics by pushing the sub into upper bass territory @ 160hz. IF you had speakers that could properly handle bass down to say 50hz then your subwoofers could be adjusted properly to give a dynamic low end and operate as they were designed. Bottom line... if you want great bass and dynamics these aren't the right speakers. The subs are fine. No need to buy another one. These speakers are great for near field, low level listening for classical music. But if your looking for some punchy Jazz tunes or electronic chill music the little drivers in these things can't handle it.
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Lower your crossover point, look at AM Acoustics room mode simulator for guidance on placement and refer to the miniDSP application notes on using multiple subs. |
That's a very high crossover frequency and almost guaranteed to muddy up your sound. I agree with @rick_n - you'd be much better off lowering that to 100 hZ and experimenting with placement to perhaps improve the LF of the mains. |
I think you need to change the oil in the car before going for the expensive engine upgrade. I don’t know why in the world your subs are crossed all the way up at 160hz. Any bookshelf speaker worth keeping shouldn’t need this. Your best path forward should be to get the crossover point as low as possible. This will likely be repositioning your speakers. Even a couple of inches can make huge differences. |
