The AN speakers might fit on a larger pair of isoacoustics stands which are adjustable and not expensive. They would sit lower to the ground with optional tilt up for the tweeter. That could well compensate for not placing them on higher stands in a corner. Boundary reinforcement would seem to be a key ingredient for good high eff performance from a smaller box on a budget. |
Rebbi the other thing about low placement with slight tilt up is this can work in your favor with imaging and soundstage in a smaller rooms due to longer delays for reflections from ceiling and rear wall. Audiokinesis has mentioned this approach that he has applied in some of his recent designs. The results with Triangle Titus low to floor on isoacoustics with slight upward tilt in my wife's sunroom supports this. |
Rebbi, as for corning placement I have heard them both ways in my room. I have two corners and they sound awesome that way. Currently I have them set up on the other side of the room with only one in the corner and the other about 10 inches away from the back wall. I may be giving up a bit of performance this way but they sound so good either way I really dont mind. My Wife insists on this placement since it makes this room flow better...who am I to argue with her!! I would also confer with Brian and others about corner vs wall placement. They will have more expirience with various room types than I. |
Map's advise and ideas sound very interesting and could be a creative way to place the E's. Very tempting to try in my room. |
Jet if you try it I'd like to know the results. Thanks.
Nothing else I tried in that room worked anywhere near up to par. My smallest least extended speakers ended up sounding spot on and trumping anything else I ever tried in there. |
If you've ever seen a pair of floor standing Klipsch Heresys the setup is similar. Except Isoacoustic stands provide the isolation from the floor needed to keep bass clean and are adjustable to two different heights and various degrees of tilt. |
Smctigel,
My office is 16x14x9, but rises to a peak of 12 feet for about 4 feet. Not to long ago I owned the Almarro model you use. Nice. It played well in this room with the Tekton M-Lore. I was fortunate to have a number of excellent EL84s, 7189s. I liked the NOS Amperex EL84s best. I paired them mostly with NOS Sylvania 3 Mica Black Plate 5751. Best, Rob |
Jeff Day 6 Moons Review plus good word on the street prompted me to purchase them. Day used them mostly with Omega 3s. Day also had a nice EL84 shootout, you might consider going back and reading his results in 6Moon Archive. Rob |
Rebbi,
As many of us have learned through experience, there are many ways to skin a cat. And there is also much to be said for same brand synergy. Products from the same Company that are presumably Voiced to work together in an excellent fashion. If doable it seems the Audio Note synergy would be ideal for you. Brownsfan and I have taken this approach with Coincident products and the results are undeniable excellent synergy. I could easily see you having the same end result. At The very least it's worth strong consideration.
Charles |
Charles,
Whatever I go with on this round, I think I will keep my eyes peeled for a used pair of AN E's. It's unfortunate that they are so pricey, but what can you do? |
Warning: cheap plug.
I just listed my TAD Hibachi monoblocks for sale. I downsized the system they were in to an integrated amp.
These might appeal to SET lovers as an alternative SS design with tube amp sound in mind.
Not expensive so could also make for a nice pair of backup amps when/if the current starters go on the disabled list. |
Mikirob, my Almarro is actually the 6c33 based model. Although I have heard great things about the Almarro 205 I am quite sure it would be up to driving the DCs. The 318B on the other hand... |
"These might appeal to SET lovers as an alternative SS design with tube amp sound in mind."
I doubt that Mapman. The First Watt M2 a SE (Class A) zero feedback design as an example is a very fine amplifier and as much as I enjoy it there ARE differences with good tube designs that, to me at least, can't be compromised and I'm NOT talking about tube rolling. It might be a reasonable alternative for some but I sincerely doubt it would be to any one that has listened for extended years to tube designs except for those that have become fatigued dealing with the maintenance issues and are looking for a SS alternative, "anyone know of a ss amp that sounds like tubes"?. I certainly haven't heard one that I could say I can live with long term, YET! Now when you are talking about guys that are experienced, long time SET users, it's probably a non starter, just a hunch. |
Here's a question:
Do any of you SET users think that running at SET with a subwoofer necessarily compromises the best SET qualities? |
Tubegroover,
Well stated words of wisdom and experience.
Charles, |
I have 't heard this integrated amp, yet I believe Jeff Day in his review of The SPEC, current in this issue of Positive Feedback, that Mr. Shirokazu Yazaki-san, the designer, a top-notch Japanese 300B builder, modifier, build this amp voiced like 300B. According to Day, says it sounds like it has many 300B attributes. Cost: about $9,500. |
Rebbi ;
I see that your room is on the small side .
Do you think that the AN J's might be an alternative ?
They certainly would be less expensive . |
Tube groover
Could be. Have you heard it and compared? I've heard both and compared these to various other amps of all designs I have heard. It's not out of the realm of possibility. Plus these will work very well with most any speaker. No problem going as loud as desired with most. |
I will also soon be putting up my mhdt paradisea tube Dac including two different 5270 tubes and my stax electret phones. Also a few extra Mit ics I no longer need. Cleaning out some stuff. For the first time in a few years as a result of the downsize to integrated. |
Running a set with a subwoofer verges on heresy I suspect. It's another step away from the pure ness of the set design. Not to say the results might not be quite good if done right. It would still seem to go counter to the norm for sets. Not that there's anything wrong with that. |
Rebbi, I run my Franks with Druid V's and an Undertone sub with great results. When you use the sub run them from the speaker outputs and sealed subs are best.
Subwoofers not only extend the bass but expands the soundstage. |
Rebbi, I occasionally turn the subs on, but I have them set up to provide just a wee bit of low end help. I rarely turn them on. I am in agreement with map man on this. For me, the solution is to go with an appropriate full range speaker eventually. |
It is not exactly the same, but the ZuDef4s have built-in powered subs and are most often paired with SETs to good effect. |
Referring to Mapman's pro audio suggestion, what about JBL 4425's? |
Saki70,
Hi. Thanks for the tip about the AN-J. It would probably be perfect for my needs, but the AN stuff is still so gosh darn expensive, or at least out of my budget. But thanks for pointing them out to me. One more AN model to keep an eye out for, used.
Mapman and Brownsfan,
I'm not so sure using a sub with a SET is heresy, although I can understand why it might seem so, supplementing a purist amp with a sub.
But a number of manufacturers of SET- friendly single-driver speakers, including Omega and Blumenstein, make matching subwoofers to go with their full range speakers.
I also think that some people whose rooms don't accommodate floor standers very well find that a monitor + sub configuration does very well. As Charles said, there are multiple methodologies for feline taxidermy.
Snopro,
Yes, I've heard from multiple sources that adding a sub does good things for sound staging. |
Heresy shmeracy. If it works it works. |
I agree with Snopro on this topic. I also use a sub connected to the speaker outputs. It is very interesting the effect on the soundstage with small changes in the sub's crossover point and volume control. My amp is an Art Audio PX-25. For me it is 6 watts of sonic bliss. Speakers are highly modified Klipsh (Big thank you to Morry James Campbell for all his help on the Klipsch's ). |
Hey Map, I haven't heard the amp in question, just speaking generally based on my experiences. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against ss, there are some gems out there, most of those a bit more than I would pay. The point is that tubes render different characteristics, distortions if you will, that are more pleasing to some of us plus that "presence" thing that gives it more of a real feel deal. Your amp might be great and it might work for someone(s). I just doubt it would for the SET crowd. The guys I know in the SET camp are very dedicated and committed, different strokes and whatever works. |
Tubegroover,
I for one certainly did not take your description as a put down of Mapman's amplifier. These amplifiers could in fact sound very fine, your distinctions were understandable in my viewpoint. The presence or "thereness factor " make all the difference in the world. If I could find a solid state amp capable of this elusive quality I would buy it in a heartbeat. As far as I know they don't exist. The wonderful three dimensional quality is tough to live without once you've been exposed to it. |
Thanks Charles for your kind words. That's just it Charles! I haven't yet I've heard some wonderful SS systems. Initially they can sound great but as I listen long enough there always seems to be something missing that causes me to veer away from the engagement in the music, the purpose of listening in the first place. I recently picked up a used tube CJ vintage preamp at an audio meeting. The owner recently passed away and a lot of his gear and a wonderful collection of mostly classical lps was being sold. This piece was one I had lusted after back in the day but I didn't have 3k to blow on a preamp at the time, around 1989, so here was my chance.
The funny thing is that along with my vintage amplifier this set-up just MAKES MUSIC! One guy at the meeting was dismissive of my purchase, Oh yeah, I had a few of those back in the day kind of not dark but carmel colored. Yeah, I guess that's kind of right but for all the imperfections there is that musical rightness, presence and tone that is just there and sound more like music to me, what I HEAR in live music and whatever is missing, often a lot of spurious irrelevant detail that doesn't contribute to the music itself, I can easily live without. |
Also Charles, forgot to mention, he was also an SET guy, he had a nice pair of Antique 845 monos. I remember not too far back sending me an email about a particular SET DHT amp for sale on Audiogon to try with the Decapos. I didn't because I didn't think they had enough juice to drive them. |
I've heard snopro's system and the sub does not take away from the SET magic. |
The TAD Hibachis are a unique design. Take a look at the design aspects listed for them and you'll see. Tube Audio Design specialized in tube gear and the designer had a very devoted following. They do use some kind of tube in the power feed.
I bought them as an experiment to try to achieve "tube amp" sound with SS. THese accomplish that quite well I would say. I suspect many or most would have difficulty identifying them as a SS amp in a blind test against some of teh better tube amps out there I have heard in that they have no audible vices that I can detect. Plus they are very transparent and seem to take on teh sound of the gear they are used with more than anything else. I've heard that using them in both my systems with very different gear at various times. I feel confident they would outpeform a SET amp with most less efficient speaekrs out there for sure.
So if one is truly interested in a SS amp that might do teh trick, and work well with most any spaekers, for very reasonable cost, these are the guys to try still IMHO.
I've heard VAC, ARC, various SETs (not Coincident) etc. I.m not saying these will sound the same, but I think they would impress most.
They are not soft, rounded, fat or have any unique characteristics like that that can sometimes be associated with some tube gear. Rather thehy sound more like what the best performing tube and SS gear I have heard sound like. Hard to find fault with teh sound IMHO. The only thing is that they do not go as loud as completely effortlessly as my 500 w/ch Bel Canto amps, but then a gain few amps do.
Just saying... |
Why do people keep recommending speakers for Rebbi outside his purchase margins? |
Rebbi,
In case you missed it there is a pair of AN-E for sale on Agon for $1,499. |
Hey, Rob,
Thanks for the post.
I looked at those AN-E's and asked Brian at ANK about them. He confirmed that they are an old version of the "94 dB" model and he doesn't really recommend them with the Kit 1. The AN-E Kits he sells, by contrast, are all the "98 dB" version with the hemp cone drivers, but you can't touch those for less than $3600 with stands. It's a pity! I have actually corresponded with the seller of those speakers when I was trying to establish their "vintage." He doesn't know how old they are because he bought them second hand.
Another interesting used possibility is the pair of Tonian Labs TL-D1 Mk. III SE's on sale for $1500. Reviews of earlier models are very good. I corresponded with Tony at Tonian. It seems like those were one-off speakers made with a Fostex driver that is no longer available. He is now building the D1 with a NOS Philips driver that he says is much better, but it goes for $2500.
At this point, I am leaning toward only buying something that I can audition first, unless it's an AN speaker, which I think would be much more of a safe bet. |
Rebbi,
Great info. Being familiar with AN speakers I have a huge soft spot in my heart for them. I did own Snell at one point which is where AN got the design and modified them, but you likely know that. At any rate, let's hope a pair of AN-E 98db version pops up soon at somewhere near your price point. The Agon has been slow and tough to sell as of late. I have my Primaluna Dialogue One up for sale for a reasonable $1,750 with about $300 worth of NOS tubes. Usually my stuff sells within 7 days. About 800 views. No sale. I'm already into relist. So, maybe an AN-E shows up one day at good price. Best, Rob |
Rob,
Yes, I think the summer time is slow. My De Capo's sat there for about 2 weeks before I really got any nibbles, and they were also listed on eBay, US Audiomart and Audio Circle! Sheesh!
Are you familiar with hifishark.com? It's a web site that aggregates used audio equipment sales from fifteen different web sites all over the world. I check there regularly.
I will keep checking for AN-E's used. In the meantime, I'm having fun doing my alternative speaker research. |
Yes I am familiar with Hi-fi Shark. I'm sure all the regular participants on this thread will also keep an eye out for you with regard to AN-E. |
I listened to the Tonian speakers at Expona this year and was not impressed at all. Perhaps the room was bad, but the Audio Note room was pretty much the same room and those Audio Note speakers sounded fantastic. One of about 3 rooms I wanted to spend time in and really enjoy listening. The sound coming from those simple and small two way speakers was just breath taking and beautiful.
Now the AN amp driving those speakers may have cost over $15,000 :)
The AN speakers are very special sounding and I would love to hear them in my room. Building the kit would be great. |
Bill,
What amplifier was driving the Tonianspeakers that you heard recently? I have never heard them myself but they have a reputation for exceptional sound. I do know how important synergy can be in regards to the overall sound.
Charles, |
Whoops my big mistake. I meant Sonist, not Tonian. I always mix them up as they look very similar to me. At least my mind thinks so. I did not hear the Tonian speakers, but was unimpressed with Sonist at the show.
Sorry fellow Agoners. |
Grannyring,
I'd looked at Sonist, but their prices have really shot up. Their smallest monitor is over $3000 at this point, IIRC. Seems they have beautiful workmanship, though. |
"The only thing is that they do not go as loud as completely effortlessly as my 500 w/ch Bel Canto amps, but then a gain few amps do."
If they are as you describe them Mapman I would only ask WHY are you selling them. I don't dispute a word you say, your comments are quite compelling BUT what's wrong with them other than they don't play LOUD enough? The whole raison d'être for us audiophiles is getting gear that sound right to each of us. If this is as you say I would only ask, besides "not enough power" any other reason why you would want to sell it, I wouldn't. I'm not trying to be flip but you sure have me curious. |
"If they are as you describe them Mapman I would only ask WHY are you selling them."
They were in my second system which I replaced with a Bel Canto C5i integrated that is also very good (but only 65 watts) and greatly simplifies that system for use by everyone in my family. It includes phono stage and DAC as well allowing me to use 1 very small device in place of many.
The Hibachis were too big to fit in the audio cabinet where the rest of that system resides. They sat separately on the floor next to all the rest.
So the Hibachis are no longer needed as a result of the downsizing and simplification of that system and I can't justify keeping them if I can sell for a reasonable price. Otherwise I might keep them around as spares or for use in a different system, but I'm taking the opportunity to clean out some things I have that are not needed. The extra cash will come in handy.
The C5i replaced my amps, pre-amp, and DAC so the sound is quite a bit different than before, more like my main system which also uses Bel Canto Class D amps. I used the Hibachis in there when I had to send the ref1000m amp there to Bel Canto for repairs a couple years back. They filled in admirably as I described. The sound was significantly different in each of my systems though where the biggest difference was in pre-amp (NAD versus ARC) and DAC (mhdt tube DAC versus SS).
So they have done the job admirably in all cases where I used them. They were in my second system for a few years and were listened to there almost daily. There is little not to like about them, except maybe they have some size to them. I cannot find a fault other than absolute output levels compared to much bigger amps as I described. |
Yes Rebbi they do look very nice indeed. I will split the cost of the AN speakers with you and you can use them for 6 months then my turn for 6 months! |
Grannyring:
A speaker time share! Excellent!! :-D |
|
David
We all here are certainly entitled to our various opinions. But I fail to see any nefarious motive in Rebbi's postings on this forum. In fact I think it's likely educational and informative for those who have come upon it. I'm
certain folks have learned a few things from following this thread.
Charles, |
More Shameless plugs:
Tad hibachis are gone.
I have stax phones and mhdt tube Dac up for sale now. I'd love to hear both with a set amp. If not in tested send me a set to try and I might end up keeping them both. 😉 |
