Honest question about cartridge vs. turntable performance.

I agree with Lewm about the cartridge / tonearm combination. Also, that TT's are pretty much independent of either.

So why not spend the money where you can be sure of good results? That is, the TT.

Thing is, turntables don’t wear out after 1000 hours. Neither do tonearms. So look at TT, tonearm, and cartridge costs over 10 years.

For the record, I had a 10K belt drive TT. Then I built my DIY air bearing TT. Same tonearm on each table. The air bearing TT sounded far better with a budget cartridge than the commercial TT with a higher end Koetsu. Wife agreed. But DIY TT + Koetsu = heaven.

Also, that Koetsu takes real trouble to set up optimally, and a lesser tonearm can’t do it. It's a matter of alignment, which requires both stability and the capacity for fine adjustments.

Finally, before you spend big bucks on a cartridge, try to make sure that your stylus wears slowly. That means ultrasonic record cleaning and strict record hygiene. I do both, and my Koetsu stylus has minimal wear at 1000 hours. If that’s too much trouble, then definitely do not spend serious money on a serious cartridge until you win the lottery.

You guys are right; I apologize for my part in digressing from the real topic of the thread. To the OP, I would say that my experience over the last 10-12 years, with running up to 5 turntables using 5 different tonearms with dozens of different cartridges is that you should consider the cartridge and tonearm as a unit, a closed system.  The SQ from any given cartridge, no matter how expensive or how cheap, and no matter how it transduces physical motion to an electrical signal (MM, MI, or MC), is highly dependent upon the tonearm/headshell into which it is mounted.  Mating cartridges to tonearms for optimum results has in my experience been a hit or miss affair (after one has done the homework to make at least a good mating), in terms of max results, but you can get "good" results by thoughtful matching done on an empirical basis.  After that, turntables each have their own character which seems to remain fairly constant regardless of the tonearm/cartridge mounted on a given one. Also, to a large degree, where a tonearm has exchangeable headshells, you can manipulate the result by experimenting with various headshells.  So, I never think of the relative importance of a cartridge and a turntable per se.

It isn't an either or situation.

Mind exercise:

A cartridge can put out X - X= 100%  That's if it were held perfectly in the air with no external vibrations affecting it.

Attach it to an arm on a turntable with interconnects to a phono preamp etc. and depending on the capabilities of each, they will subtract a varying amount from the 100% that the cartridge is theoretically capable of producing.

Is a great cartridge on a so-so table better than a more modest cartridge on a great turntable? I don't know for sure and I'm not sure anyone else does either, but if you start with a good cartridge and then use and upgrade the rest of the gear along the way, at least you will be able to hear what each change does.

Nothing further down the chain can remedy a weakness in a component up near the top of the chain. It can just allow you to lose less of what came out of the record/cartridge interface in the first place.

Dear OP,

As I believe your question was about acquiring a nice/substantial upgrade in your vinyl set-up. If I may presume you are reasonably happy with your MMF 5.1. My best guess is that you will absolutely make a very fine upgrade with a new (and hopefully better) cartridge. Changing your turntable while holding on to the Ortofon Black would just be a sidestep. I do not think you will gain much.
I am not familiar with your particular player. But I was triggered by some denigrating remarks considering your Music Hall and the whole breed of belt driven turntables. I really think this is complete and utter foolishness. To put it mildly. And a sure sign serious audiophiles can be anally retentive snobs. 
So, back to the original question, when happy with the player, what cart? There are quite a few possibilities, but there are some restrictions as well. I have no idea if your preamp can accommodate LOMC's. You have got to take the Project 9 arm in account (11gr, medium to lightish, total mass). And your budget. Wold you like to try a MM/MI cart? Or would a HOMC do? Is shopping in the 'vintage corner' not too daunting? Mind you, people who appreciate such fine differences will verbally go to war for their weapon of choice. I am familiar with old LOMC's as the Denon 301 or Supex 900. And I have given the HOMC's ( Denon 160, Dyna 10x4/2 a fair share of black circles. But all in different tonearms. And they were vintage, but I sure wouldn't mind mounting the in a Pro-Ject 9 arm.  So, I am sure there are quite a few very knowledgeable folk around for some more modern choices. I am looking forward to your solutions!

Kind regards, StefV

What matters is the table/arm/cartridge interface. If they don't "have chemistry", it doesn't matter how much you spend on one over the other.

I remember buying a Grado at the upper end of their offerings and installing it in my Sumiko MMT arm on my VPI HW table. There was nothing that I could do to keep it from literally bouncing across the record.

I brought it back to the store owner, who then chewed out the salesperson for not knowing about the "Grado Bounce", something that happens when you put one in an MMT arm and every salesperson is supposed to know about.

Guys (or gals) the original question posed was not belt versus direct. One technology is not better than the other. It depends on the table. Some manufacturers make both types. OP is talking about going from a good basic turntable to something better or upgrading a cartridge. 

From my experience, the arm is most important (but I don't have experience as Mike Lavigne from bottom to very top of the market). It must be matched to the table. However, you want to look at resale value down the road. As someone who faced this type of decision, it is hard to sell a tonearm standalone and people like to buy known quantities. Years ago I had an MMF 5.1 and wanted an improvement. I was about to buy an arm, but was able to get a new table with the same arm for almost the same price (Rega, known fro their arm's high value). If I sold the MMF with a better arm, it would not have added the same resale value as the new table. All you Rega haters just please relax (especially Chakster). When I upgraded the Rega it was easy to sell in pieces because I upgraded the arm first (huge improvement) and then matched it to a table that cost about 80% more than the arm upgrade (minor improvement). I think up to $5K or so, get a table with an arm to match. So a table upgrade (with arm included) will yield better results than a cartridge.Then you can look at more complicated decisions.

Cartridge, as Mike Lavigne said is disposable. I wouldn't spend more than $1K, but that is me. Second most important is phono stage, which is not spoken about much, as one of the 4 main components. Not talking about Linn that breaks it down into a million pieces.

So, I guess cartridge is 4th, assuming your table is at the right speed with minimal rumble (sometimes a bd assumption). Also, you need to look at your budget. The question is how do I get the best improvement in SQ for my buck from a given investment. That is critical, otherwise you can go down a rabbit hole of upgraditis since there is ALWAYS something better of everything. Figure out your budget and go from there. Significant improvements cost significant dollars and the more you spend the more you have to spend to get noticeable improvement.

For a grand or two, I'd get a new table/arm. Then a new phono stage. Then cartridge to match the phono stage, assuming you are happy with your speakers and cables (oh no....you're going down the hole....)

Mijo, While you were going to medical school in or around Miami, I was going to medical school in NYC.  Lyric Hi-Fi and Mike Kaye were in their heyday at that time, and I hung around that store and a few others, like Harmony House on 72nd St all too often.  (Being a medical student in an MD/PhD program per se was taking up all my other time, so I did not work in a store.) Mike was a very nice guy, would talk about audio even to a poor medical student.  I bought my first pair of audiophile speakers from him, IMF Studios.  I wanted the Monitors but could not afford them or fit them in our tiny apartment. Later on, Mike took a back seat and the store became snotty, you needed an appointment to get in to one of their listening rooms.Still, in your interesting narrative of your early years, you did not actually name any of the actual DD turntables you were hearing back in the 70s. I might note that those relatively early DD turntables in general did not reference the speed to a quartz oscillator; that came along in the early 80s.  I would not mess with any DD lacking a quartz referenced servo, and it's no wonder you were not impressed with those early efforts at DD.  The difference between the original Technics SP10 and the SP10 Mk2 is the incorporation of a quartz reference for better speed control in the latter case.  However, the SP10 Mk2 is one of a few DDs I have owned and heard that really do have a coloration, in my opinion.  I owned two Mk2s; they added a faint "gray"-ish coloration that was only evident when you compared it to something else that lacked that same coloration.  Many others who do not like DD ascribe this coloration to "hunting" due to the servo mechanism constantly correcting speed.  My investigations tell me it is more likely due to EMI, as you mention.  A little shielding added can fix that.  The SP10 MK3 or the new SP10R are rock solid neutral and constant in speed in a way that no other turntable does it. The huge platter of the Mk3 provides inches of shielding from its motor. Another fix in relation to speed hunting is to stabilize the stators on the motor, as done by Richard Krebs.  The torque of the motor while rotating the platter applies an equal and opposite force to the structural elements that restrain stator motion.  If the structure is weak, the stator will move counter to the rotation of the platter by a tiny amount (Newton's Third Law), but this is enough to signal the servo that there is a speed error, so the servo tries to compensate by accelerating the platter, and there you go.  These are issues with modern DD (and also with belt-drive motors where the consequences of counter-force are different), but for me the issues with belt-drive are audibly worse, so I've made my choice.  You consistently mention the Grand Prix Monaco.  There are many things I like about that turntable but it is off my list due to its light weight and carbon fiber construction, perhaps unfairly on my part.  Even I would tell you, you are better off with a Dohmann Helix belt drive. I favor mass over a suspension, unless you are talking about Minus K or Herzan (which I think makes Minus K under another brand).  Mass is needed to counter the force of the motor, again the motor wants to turn the plinth or the platter, and it doesn't care which. If you want a heavy platter (and I do), you need a very massive plinth, which also, if properly designed to incorporate constrained layer damping, soak up resonance.  My SP10 Mk3 sits in a 90-lb plinth I made or had made out of slate and cherry wood.  The Kenwood L07D was conceived with a 60-lb plinth made of a hard particulate of some kind plus a hard wood, for CLD.

As to the Rega, I disagree with Chakster's dismissing them out of hand.  I think the higher end Rega turntables are very interesting experiments in extreme rigidity with low mass, and I'd like to hear one some time. Maybe they are bang for buck contenders in belt drive world.

I would say given the choice I would put a superior cartridge on an inferior turntable.  

Chakster, I definitely do not have to own one. I suspect I have had very close contact to more of them than you unless you have similar experience. It is not my fault you drink the Kool Aid. 
Do yourself a favor. Contact Hideaki Nishikawa here,   https://techdas.jp/pages/contact-techdas/ and ask him why he did not use a direct drive system. You can come back and give us his answer!

I agree with chakster regarding the newer Technics.  The older Luxmans I am sure are fantastic.  My friend has an older Luxman but he cannot get it repaired anywhere locally so that is why i would not take my chances on one.  If I had skilled technicians locally that could fix it without sending it out for repair I would definitely consider one of them.

Vintage DD turntables are definitely not the way to go. There may be some new ones that are fine I do not know. There certainly is no Technics turntable that I personally would bother with. For the most part they just dusted off the old designs when vinyl came back and made up a bunch of new marketing to make people think they were buying a cheap turntable that was better than any of those high price belt drive things.

@mijostin you know nothing about reference Direct Drive turntables so how can you tell someone anything about them? Would you like to recall top of the line DD turntable you ever owner in your life? Then we can talk about it.

Technics new design is NEW, not old.

It’ new Coreless Direct Drive motor. This company knows very well what they are doing, it’s not a funny little hi-fi manufacturer in his garage like most of those small Belt Drive companies with huge margin in the price for their toys.

And finally who cares about your own choice? We know you like Belt Drives. But everything you’re posting about DD turntables is wrong. You’d better study a bit about proper Direct Drive design - this is the missing link. Technics products are not overpriced just because they are able to make millions of them and sell them all quickly. The best selling turntable in the world is an old SL1200mkII series, probably you don’t know about it. Today they can make reference SP-10R and keep the price low, so some audiophile for whom the price is the key don’t really understand what they are missing, they can pay 5 times more and not even get close to SP-10R.

I know there must be some good belt drive turntables, but there are much more problems with belt drive than with direct drive motor.

Hang on sdrsdrsdr, Accuphase was very much alive back then and they made some awesome equipment. If I know the Japanese we were also not getting their best stuff. They hoard it for themselves. Woodworking sharpening stones are a great example. We get the garbage here. In order to get good ones you have to do business with a store there. 
Most peoples experience when it comes to Hi Fi is anecdotal. They here some things in their own system and think it's gospel. An anecdote does not a study make. There are too many variables to be able to say much about anything except one individual prefers this over that. Multiple observers have to note the same characteristic over broad circumstances, multiple units etc. 
Your Linn sounds better because it has a very small low torque motor far away from the cartridge and it is isolated from the environment by a suspension consequently far less noise gets to the stylus than any currently made DD turntable. It would be interesting to put a Monaco turntable on a MinusK stand to see what you get. But, the Japs never took isolation seriously. (that should raise some eyebrows) The Linn's problems are that it's suspension is not designed well and is poorly damped, the universal arm board is poor, as you mention tonearms are limited and lastly it has developed the silliest cult following. But, it certainly does sound better than any direct drive and we compared it to at least 10 if not more. There were weeks when we sold at least 10 LInns and we had 3 or 4 DD tables set up to compare it to.  The DD turntables were selling the Linns for us. You just had to make sure the customer had a really stable location for the Linn or you could have an angry customer.
Vintage DD turntables are definitely not the way to go. There may be some new ones that are fine I do not know. There certainly is no Technics turntable that I personally would bother with. For the most part they just dusted off the old designs when vinyl came back and made up a bunch of new marketing to make people think they were buying a cheap turntable that was better than any of those high price belt drive things. 

@cakyol 
I total disagree. I could be content with a lessor cartridge, but never an inferior table. Especially if a decent arm was used. If you can’t hear the difference than your Lp12 isn’t set up properly. As most Linns probably aren’t with their wobbly suspension.

cakyol
Wow, thanks for verify that that I always suspected. And is my view of it too.
 
That if we ONLY look att the whole TT (=100%) and disregard all other following components downstream.

It is hard to put numbers on things but for illustration and easier understanding.

That cartridge make up for ≈70-80% of the sound quality and ≈20-30% of the sound quality that is left is shared between platter (drive type, plinth, bearing and so on) and tone arm (length, cable, bearing type and so on).

Then we can discuss this and that and adjust 10% up or down. But it is important to make this rather simple to understand.

When all this discussion back and forth and details on drive system or tone arms will just confuse many when we do not know and understand that those types of "rabbit holes discussions" is only, lively discussions on a few % of the sound quality.

Good to have that perspective back of your head when reading this type of threads.

@mijostyn 


I remember the DD tables back in the 70’s and 80’s and when I got my Linn lp12  in 1985 I thought it was so much better. I think the problem was I only saw the low end Japanese DD. Also when I got my Linn it was the first time I purchased a decent cartridge. DD turntables for me back then meant low end. In the 80’s,  Made in Japan had a bad reputation  in audio. They never sent us much of their good stuff to North America. I’ve learn now that I had never heard their  top tables back then that are cheap to obtain now. Like SP 10, Denon DP80, @chakster has a Luxman pd444 and others of consideration. If you would have asked me, I would have recommended similar to chakster. But since you already own the Rega, it’s probably still a decent table that I’m sure you’ll enjoy. Along with my Garrard 301 and  2 DD I also own a Kuzma reference belt drive. But for the dollar a DD (especially vintage) can’t be beat in my opinion.

Having owned a Technics Direct Drive SP10 mk2 and now a Linn, I think both tables can deliver good to great sound. The Technics was a table that I thought could sound a bit like digital at times, IOW a little sterile and dry sounding. The Linn, if not set up 100% can also sound a little off, leading to the opinions that many naysayers have about it. The plus with the Technics was that one could mount almost any arm, the minus with the Linn is that the arm options are very limited. However, once set up correctly and with their Radikal power supply, the Linn is very hard to beat. Nonetheless, I think most drive types have their pluses and minuses...

Atma-Sphere, I will never ride a bike with anything but  Campy on it. That Jap stuff is cheap overweight crap. It only worked better if you did not know how to shift. 
My current bike is a Specialized S works Diverge with Campy Super Record 12 speed EPS disc brake group. Fulcrum Carbon tubeless rims with Hutchinson Sector 32 tires. Perfect bike for an old fart with bad wrists:)

Wow, this is certainly spinning around. Lewm, in order to support myself in medical school I was a Hi Fi salesman at a store called Luskin's Hi FI in Miami, FL. It was a discount box store and volume was the key. On the side I installed systems in the houses of very rich people getting equipment from several places but mostly Sound Components the high end store in Miami. We blew up quads in HQD systems for fun. Not kidding. I can not remember the names  of all the DD turntables I set up and evaluated. Can you remember the names of all the girls you ...dated? If you can you led a very boring life. At Sound Components many if not most evaluations were done as a group. No one thought the current  DD turntables sound even close to being good. They were pretty and reliable enough so that you could sell one to John Smith with a straight face. Very few of the customers at Luskin's knew what they were listening to. The rich people certainly did not. The Owner of Flagler Dog Track though I did such a good job he had me redesign the entire PA system at the Track.
I made serious money on that one.  I set him up with Beveridges, Levinson preamp and amps, a Tandberg cassette machine and Reel to Reel, and a McIntosh Tuner. CD had not been invented yet and he was not interested in Vinyl. 
One thing we did notice a Sound Components was that DD turntables did considerably worse with MC cartridges. I can theorize why but I have proof of nothing. Is it possible to do a DD table that sounds as good as a belt drive. I guess. But, I have not personally heard one I would consider buying. There are other factors at play than just drive type. I have also not been exposed to near as much equipment during the last 40 years as I was back then. But no matter how you parse it putting an oscillating
magnetic device under a modern low output moving coil cartridge is a silly concept and I am not the only one who has that opinion although I may be the most vocal.  I have no overwhelming proof to back up my opinion. But, It is my opinion and you are entitled to yours. 
My next turntable is going to be Dohmann Helix 1 with two Schroder LT's
on it:)

mammothguy54,

Agree. It's a shame when some of these people have to be so full of themselves that THEY think they are the first and last word in choosing equipment. With them, it's the same old boring argument.

Well Chakster, I didn't mention your name because I am not one to bash others.  But since you are requesting it then, yes, I was referencing you.

I can see that your opinion and, more importantly, your manners, are what they are.

Stay safe and be healthy during these very trying times of COVID.

@mammothguy54

When you address your message to someone directly, please mention it. In my opinion Rega is a crappy and overpriced belt drive turntable like almost all modern BD turntable in this price range, nothing can change my opinion about it.

...making a recent purchase for a Rega Planar 10, I somehow have made a very poor decision.

Don’t you think the same? Let’s face it.
And let me mark the best Technics models since you have mentioned your positive experience with some old Technics turntables. The SP-10 mkII cost only $1500 today in perfect condition. The SP-10 mkIII is still a reference Direct Drive and cost about $5-7k.

I have explained in details in my earlier posts why (in my opinion) Direct Drive is better than Belt Drive.

Comparing any Rega to Technics SP-10mkII or mkIII is a joke, really.
Same about any Rega tonearms versus vintage Technics EPA-100 tonearm.

A brand new Technics SL1200G (about$4k) and GR (about $1700) are better than any Rega turntable today. 

I agree that Technics turntables are a fine product.  I sold many of them during that part of my CE industry life.  They sounded very good, worked flawlessly, and never came back with a mechanical issue.  Very happy customers.  The direct drive of my choice, one that I have enjoyed in my system for many years, is a Micro Seiki DDX-1000 with a Micro Seiki MA-505 tonearm.  Always sounded wonderful and has been a flawless performer for many years.

The problem I have with some comments here, however, is that by making a recent purchase for a Rega Planar 10, I somehow have made a very poor decision.  As well, that the product is equally as poor.  Quite frankly, that's just not fair.  We are all allowed to have opinions and make choices.  It's just wrong to tell people that their opinions, decisions, and product selections are "crap" (exact quote from a previous comment).  Offer up all the opinions and information that you wish.  But please, refrain from telling people that their choices and their products are "crap".

Plus Mijostyn has never revealed exactly which DD turntables he listened to back in the "1970s or 1980s", with what tonearms and cartridges and on what speakers.  (Not that it would matter all that much, unless he listened to some decidedly inferior brand or model, because otherwise he is entitled to his opinion.)  Plus, dear Mijo, you are guilty of a common audiophile sin: You have an observation on one hand ("I did not like that turntable sound), and a not necessarily related fact on the other (the turntable has a motor situated directly under the platter), and you are positing a cause and effect for which we (neither you nor I) have no other evidence.  Even the 1970s (50 years ago) were not "dark ages".  Electricity was well understood in the 1970s.  Engineers knew about EMI and RFI and their possible negative effects on the operation of a phono cartridge placed nearby.  Shielding was also an understood art.  All of the high quality vintage DD turntables I have encountered evidence an effort to prevent the motor from interfering with the low level signal from a cartridge.  I've measured EMI near the surface of the platter for two of my own DD turntables (SP10 Mk3 and Kenwood L07D), while the turntable was in operation, of course, and the signal is not above background.  This is proof of nothing, but it is evidence of something.

Atma-Sphere, I have this nagging itch that tells me it is the "less money"
part that is most significant here.

@mijostyn  That might be due to Veblen Effect- the same reason that people preferred Campagnolo derailleurs back in the 1970s even though SunTour derailleurs were better in every way. Its that nagging itch that tells you that because its more expensive, it has to have more value. It doesn't always work that way- if the product is built to a pricing formula rather than what the market will bear, it is often less expensive.


The Technics machines are less expensive out of volume. You might want to give them another listen; the new 'tables are entirely different designs even though they've retained the same look. I've installed Triplanar arms on a number of them- that combination is very hard to beat!

Now I have never used your Microseiki turntables but I find it interesting that their chief designer now makes only belt drive turntables. (Techdas)
A thin platter and a rubber mat are not much for shielding. The best shield from magnetism is distance.

@mijostin
I have mentioned only Micro Seiki BELT DRIVE, not any Direct Drive from them. The Belt Drive from Micro Seiki is something like this. Do you know the price? Not sure how many reference direct drive turntable anyone could buy instead of one Micro Seiki reference belt drive, the price is insane!

Chakster, in order for any turntable to be first class it has to be able to maintain speed in spite of any reasonable interference, it has to have an adequate record clamping system either reflex or vacuum, it has to be able to mount any tonearm you desire and it has to have a suspension that isolates it from anything over 2 hertz both vertically and horizontally.

No direct drive turntable I know of meets all of these requirements.

I am able to mount almost any tonearm on my $4000 Luxman PD-444 direct drive. Not a fan of vacuum clamping, but disc stabilizers or record camp like Micro Seiki ST-20 / CU-180 mat is what I use. Long time ago we came to conclusion here on audiogon that Luxman motor was made by Victor (not Micro Seiki). This turntable is suspended. Mode images here. The armboard system on the rails is the best I have ever used, ideal for tonearm collector like myself.

More reference direct drive turntable that you may never tried:
Victor TT-101, Denon DP-80, Technics Sp-10 mkIII or latest SP-10R.

All those are the best bang for the bucks as Lewm pointed out.
If a $2000 drive can give you more than $20 000 drive then why even look for the most expensive? You’re talking about turntables what will never be withing a price range that I (and many others) can spend on a turntable, in my opinion it’s a waste of money.

The answer is it depends on how terrific the cartridge- and how terrible the turntable.

The obvious answer is the question itself is terrible.

I will make an exaggeration to make the point. 
Which one do you think would sound better:

- a terrible turntable with a terrific cartridge
- a terrific turntable with a terrible cartridge

i think the answer is obvious ....

How much difference does a turntable really make compared to the cartridge? Will I hear a significant difference if I upgraded my turntable and kept the same cartridge? Isn’t the cartridge 90%+ of the sound from a vinyl setup?

think of this question as a ratcheting kind of thing. where the cost of precision of each area of the vinyl ’system’ comes into dominance. as you rise through levels of turntable quality until you get to about $10k-$15k range for turntable-arm-cartridge combo’s there will be different aspects of the whole picture that will be dominant.

based on current price real production products (not DIY or Vintage).......under $1000 total mostly the speed of the platter and motor noise will be the dominant limitation. the arm, cartridge can’t overcome those limitations.

in the $1000-$2500 the motors and plinth/platter get much better, then it’s the arms that are where the compromises are and what is mattering most. any decent cartridge is limited by the arm.

above $2500 now the cartridge becomes a significant difference and set-up quality now becomes huge as the gross distortions are now gone and higher performance levels are realistic to expect.

at about $5000 now the motors and platters take another jump up in quality, and then above $7000 now some really fine tonearms can jump up. tonearms will limit or enable cartridge performance.......but there are exceptions. certain cartridges are giant killers that can be considered in this system price range.

above $10k it’s a crap shoot......too many variables to single out the dominant limitation. and everyone has a different opinion. it’s all degrees of good.

you can make a strong case that above $10k mostly you are hearing the motor and the refinement of the drive system. not so much which type as execution of concept. but opinions about exactly what is right on this subject is a very polarized subject. you have to listen and decide for yourself. lots of great choices at this level or above.

on the top of the food chain.........get to $40k and now it’s the motor and platter/plinth that separate and above that all bets are off. it gets really crazy.

Yes lewm, no matter how hard I try I can not warm up to Techdas tables. There is just too much filigree. They are beautifully made but more complicated than they have to be and complexity buys unreliability. For that kind of money I expect a turntable to out live me. As an example look at the SOTA Cosmos for less than 1/10th the cost of an Air Force One you get all of the same features, vacuum hold down, a suspended platter (magnets instead of air), an isolating suspension and electronic motor control. Is the Tecdas 10 times better? I would bet with the same tonearm and cartridge most of us would not reliably be able to tell the difference. Is the Techdas more reliable. I doubt it. On the other hand SOTA is right close by and has a great reputation. 
If I were going to spend crazy money on a turntable right now the Dohmann Helix is the one. It accomplishes everything I expect in a turntable in the most elegant manner at the highest levels.
Chakster, in order for any turntable to be first class it has to be able to maintain speed in spite of any reasonable interference, it has to have an adequate record clamping system either reflex or vacuum, it has to be able to mount any tonearm you desire and it has to have a suspension that isolates it from anything over 2 hertz both vertically and horizontally. 
No direct drive turntable I know of meets all of these requirements.  

There never was anything special about M-S DD turntables in the first place.  By and large, they are cheaply constructed. They made their bones by building enormous metal belt drives. Hence the fact they are now making Techdas, some of which have the same design flaws as did the original and still highly sought after and still very expensive M-S belt drives.  One model even looks the same as one of their earlier belt drive efforts. 

Chakster, take it easy. It is already obvious that you and I occupy alternative realities. I said your logic was faulty in that you can not compare cutting a record to playing one back as the parameter are substantially different. 
Yes, there are low torque and high torque direct drive tables. I would bet my wife that all the motors used in Lathes are high torque.
Now I have never used your Microseiki turntables but I find it interesting that their chief designer now makes only belt drive turntables. (Techdas)
A thin platter and a rubber mat are not much for shielding. The best shield from magnetism is distance. 
Neither of us is going to change the other's mind. We present our arguments in a gentlemanly fashion and let others decide for themselves.     

Atma-Sphere, I have this nagging itch that tells me it is the "less money"
part that is most significant here. Now, I have not had a recent direct drive in my system for comparison's sake and to be real It would have to have the same tonearm and cartridge to be meaningful. It is a hard comparison to make. We did do this at Sound Components back in the late 70's, early 80's and the results were uniformly disappointing as far as direct drives were concerned. Theories abounded but nothing was ever proven. 
I have zero interest in the SP10 however I would love to be able to listen to the Grand Prix Audio Monaco and the Xact Audio Beat under similar circumstances. Both are even more accurate and both go to length to mitigate magnetic interference with the cartridge. However at this time if I were to purchase a turntable it would be the Dohmann Helix, just another belt drive. 

Mijostyn, I have long ago moved on from the Nottingham, after having also moved on from the Sapphire. Each of my five turntables in current use is either direct drive or (one) idler drive, a very highly modified Lenco, which really only uses the platter, the motor, and the idler wheel from a Lenco L 78. With all due respect to Sota  turntables, for you to talk about a Dohmann turntable with a built-in minus K platform or to talk about any spring suspension in the same breath with a minus K platform is a bit off the deep end, don’t you think.? The minus K is light years more advanced than any common spring suspension found on a turntable. And the Dohmann is indeed a world-class turntable if you have $40,000. I don’t categorically choose direct drive over belt drive, I only claim that for the same amount of cash investment, you get much more bang for the buck out of a direct drive turntable. And even if you have and are willing to spend the bucks, the dohmann and only a very few others actually give you value for money. Most of the rest of them are just bling exhibits. Your ad hoc arguments against direct drive just don’t hold water.

@testpilot There have been two prior bearings for the Linn. The original and then the Cirkus. The new one called the Karousel attaches to the subchassis with a three point system. It is also more precisely machined to a mirror finish at the base. The added rigidity and the precision go a long way in improving the signal to noise ratio. If one looks at the typical bearing that most turntables utilize then one can see the obvious differences. This aspect is not something that we see discussed that much, most naysayers of the Linn platform have no idea as to what the bearing in their favorite turntable consists of, or even how accurately machined it is ( never mind the current condition of said bearing!)...yet IME this is a huge factor in the ultimate SQ.

@daveyf, what exactly is the difference between the old and brand new Linn bearing?  

Linn has just updated the most important part of their turntable, and it is not the motor, the type of drive, the speed control, the tonearm or the suspension system. It is the bearing!!! Precision engineering in the bearing is actually where I believe the biggest gains are to be had, others may disagree, but listening to what the bearing can bring is crucial. Direct drive tables are fine, so long as the motor doesn't cog ( which unfortunately a lot of them do) or contribute any noise into the platter. 

 The torque of a direct drive motor is now superfluous. A quiet environment is far more critical. You have to isolate the platter, tonearm and cartridge from everything. IMHO this is far more difficult than cutting a lacquer.

Since I've had to set up a mastering operation from scratch I cannot disagree with this more. A lathe has to be isolated too. My setup is pretty old- a Scully- and yet it has a table equipped with adjustable points for feet, plus an isolation base, both made at the same time as the lathe, which was the early 1950s (so if anyone tries to tell you that points beneath your equipment is snake oil, you now have proof that the industry thinks it is not). All the stuff you have to do standing on your head to make it work and not freak out if you look at it cross-eyed is ridiculous. Cutting pressure, track ball height, stylus temperature, tangential-ness, bearing noise (the bearings need frequent greasing and should be warmed up for 20 minutes before making a cut), controlling cutter resonance... I can go on; not to belittle your comment but really its pretty amazing that the technology (record and playback) is as good as it is!

Atmasphere, in some cases it might be because they work better:)

We've made a belt-drive machine for over 20 years. I'd put it up beside any belt-drive made and no worries expecting it to keep up; you can walk up to this machine and thwock the platter while its playing and not hear anything significant through the speakers; the platter is damped, the plinth is rigid and dead, it has a powerful drive and the motor itself is a significant flywheel. Its very neutral. But I think Technics makes a better turntable (and for less money, but I'm not a fan of their arm) so we're not making our 'table anymore...unless someone begs us :)

@mijostyn

Everything you posted has nothing to do with reality and I am tired to reply to all these nonsense coming from the belt drive owners who never tried a proper direct drive system.

There are high torque direct drive and low torque direct drive, the torque is adjustable on some models. They are all very well isolated and there is NO magnetic field because there is a platter and additional mat on top of it. I use Micro Seiki CU-500, CU-180, SAEC SS-300 and Sakura Systems The Mat on my different direct drive turntables. With tons on MM, MI and LOMC cartridges I can’t remember any single issue with any of my direct drive turntables.

Stable rotation = Direct Drive, and this is all you need from a turntable, the rest is plinth, tonearm and cartridge. Stable rotation is the most important part of the cutting, this is why there is a Direct Drive motor on the most popular cutting lathe (Neumann). What else you can add? 

There must be some good Direct Drive like big and heavy Micro Seiki, but not those overpriced plastic toys manufacturers selling today and fooling people around.

Direct Drive is the best investment and this type of motor will work for over 40 years without service with stable rotation. 

If you like floating pitch use belt drive, the belt degrades in time. 

As long as your turntable has the following figures:

rumble < 75 - 78 db,
wow & flutter as low as possible,
speed stability better than about 1%

and as long as your tonearm effective mass is a good match for your cartridge,
here are the approximate importance of the components:

turntable: 10%
tonearm: 10%
cartridge: 40%
phono amp: 40%

This ∆∆∆

It is easier to choose and to know what you have if you have numbers on the performance.
Otherwise it is just bla bla bla Words that confuse..

One thing that you can look at is if all types of adjustments parameters are available on the tonearm incorporated on the TT.

When cartridge is ~40% and you can't adjust for example SRA then you leave some performance on the table.. .. especially when you have advanced stylus shapes. (even better is if the TT has SRA on the fly adjustment). Now you can easily argument that a TT should sound better than one that cannot adjust it all.

You have to visualize the turntable as a system in which all of its parts working together in unisone gives you musical satisfaction . In your question if getting a given cartridge onto a better turntable will make the cartridge sound better is yes . Yes because if the turntable is better it will be.more inmune to vibrations making the task of the cartridge easier to track low level information. Being a system it is more complex then what I have explained but being all parts equal a better turntable should make a given cartridge sound better. 

Linn, the turntable manufacture argued that in a record player's hierarchy the turntable was the most important component followed by the tone arm and lastly the cartridge.
I think if you talk with a Linn dealer today, that same philosophy still exists.
The idea really makes sense, because you can not add additional information to a source, you can only reduce the information your trying to retrieve.(Or you can add additional distortion)
My advise is to find a dealer that will let you listen to different tt using lp's that are yours.
I think the Mobile Fidelity UltraDeck tt, is a great all-in-one set up.

I have to totally agree with chakster on his last post. The "noise" from a good DD turntable is vanishing low. Speed accuracy is superb.
What belt drive TT manufactures actually design and build their own motors? They just use an off the shelf product and in many cases it's a cheap product. They rely on the belt to smooth things out. Some state that they "modify" the motors, what's that mean, maybe shorten the shaft? And don't get me started on power supply upgrades. Some of the highly touted belt drives won't hold proper speed with out one. Isn't that the most basic job of a TT, to hold the correct speed?
BillWojo

Atmasphere, in some cases it might be because they work better:)

Faulty logic Chakster. Cutting a record and playing one back are not the same. Cutting requires more torque and consequently is more difficult to control. The cutting head is powered and is easily able to overcome any magnetic fields near by. 
Playing a record back is a relatively low torque situation with much less strain on the drive system. Now you have a very sensitive magnetic device trying to make sense of squiggly grooves. Any magnetic field near by is going  interrupt the process. The torque of a direct drive motor is now superfluous. A quiet environment is far more critical. You have to isolate the platter, tonearm and cartridge from everything. IMHO this is far more difficult than cutting a lacquer.
Vibration and noise is everywhere. You think your turntable is isolated because your rack is on concrete? Guess again. Keeping the motor as far away from the cartridge as possible is a good start. Suspending the sub chassis (what the platter and tonearm sit on) is another important issue. A suspension tuned as low as possible will isolate the sub chassis from any noise transmitted above the resonant frequency of the suspension. Vibration transmitted through the air is another problem. Putting your turntable in another room works. When I see turntables on a rack between the speakers up near the front wall where the bass is exaggerated I die laughing. That is the absolute worse place to put a turntable. Using a dust cover that is isolated from the sub chassis is another way of putting the turntable in another room.
In short for playback properly designed belt drives are the way to go. They may not be simpler depending on the method used to control speed. Some of the motors are very high tech. Just as high tech as any direct drive.  I think the Grand Prix Monaco and the XactAudio Beat represent the apex of direct drive turntables. They are interesting designs and I can not say how well they function but if I'm going to spend that amount of money on a turntable without a thought I would go for the Dohmann Helix. Total no brainer. It pushes all the right buttons. 
Direct drive turntables are great for DJ's and that is about it, not to mention the tonearms they come with are pretty poor.    

@mammothguy64

So Chakster, then why is it that the vast majority of the most high-end turntables are belt drive? I welcome your explanation. There could be something to learn from it.

In a wider perspective most of high-end turntables are Direct Drive, especially if you know the history. I don’t care much about High-End Industry today, this is where the ugliest and most expensive turntables coming from. It’s been said before, but i can repeat it again - marketing is the reason, if they can sell those ugly beats then why not make a profit? If someone can sell BD turntables like Rega then why not sell them, a belt drive motor is easy to make. The lack of knowledge is on the customers side in this situation, some of them don’t even know there are other turntables on the market today.

Let’s get back to the basics, this is my favorite argument:

I’m pretty sure most of your records made with this Neumann cutting lathe, and this is a first step in record manufacturing, this is how a lacquer disk actually cut. There must be the most stable motor to do so, because there is a cutter stylus right on lacquer, it’s obvious that any pitch errors must be eliminated in this process if you want to cut a perfect record (master cut). This is where nothing but a Direct Drive can do the job. And Neumann cutting lathe has Technics SP-02 Direct Drive Motor. I can’t find a better image for you since our member jpjones... removed the catalog from his new site (temporary, i hope) .

But let me tell you this:
If our records made with direct drive motor rotating the platter then why not reproduce them with similar direct drive motor ? This is it. Not only Technics made amazing direct drive turntables, there are many from Victor, Denon, Luxman, Kenwood, Pioneer Exclussive .... from the golden age of analog.

Today you can find superb direct drive motor only from Technics in SP10R series.

Why a belt drive manufacturers still selling their overpriced belt drive turntables ? You tell me. Obviously those BD turntables are NOT from Japan where Direct Drive was and still is a king.

I finished my country house turntable project - goal was to find small  good turntable.

So my choice at the very end is Era turntable + Ortofon 9 inch RS-212 tonearm + Aidas cartridge.
Very small and not serious looking. Sounds better than any Rega for me:)

But if to look into Era it's rather cheap belt drive engineered by Verdier. With very small motor and very loose belt. And very strange design I have to say. Although in my opinion Era don't make any sound it just keeps the speed with very low wow and flutter 

Then you don't see turntable sound is superb :) Although now I want for my home big Verdier turntable as it is more serious and it will look nice near Garrard.

Engineering is the key. Good turntable can be very simple. Does it means that it's the most important - I don't think so. But in the late evenings then turntable spins and shines it's the most important part in the system. That is for sure.

why is it that the vast majority of the most high-end turntables are belt drive?

Its low-tech and easy to get good results?