How to guarantee to lower noise- ground loops in your system
you can never have too many grounding rods for exterior equipmentAre these ground rods tied to the Earth Safety? Driving ground rods willy nilly can reduce their effectiveness for intended purpose which is LIGHTNING! Exterior equipment should use GFCI to reduce the risk from a person becoming a conductor!! An additional ground rod will do NOTHING! |
Other than my home audio, I do believe you can never have too many grounding rods for exterior equipment. In the past I have driven an extra grounding rod for my exterior a/c condensing unit, because children played barefoot in that area. You can never be too safe when it comes to protecting children. There have been many fatalities from wet exterior energized equipment and tools, with or without rain in wet locations. |
As I'm writing this I'm also playing my stereo that has a phono section, a line preamp and dual mono power amps that all have switches to lift the chassis grounds. Those mono amps always play with the ground lifting switches in the lift position, because they sound better that way, in my system that has extremely sensitive speakers. As far as I am aware what those switches do in all of the audio components which provide them is to isolate their internal circuit ground from the chassis, while not affecting the connection of chassis to AC safety ground. And consequently setting those switches to the lift position does not defeat the intended purpose of the AC safety ground, which is to cause the breaker to trip if an internal short develops between the AC line voltage and the chassis. Regards, -- Al |
To Cleeds, You said above " because a fault on the ground wouldn’t trip the breaker back at the panel" What I said was ANYONE WHO DIDN'T KNOW ANY BETTER would think that the breaker would never trip. All we are talking about here is a piece of audio equipment that's chassis has become energized, and is sending current to an illegal exterior grounding rod. Why is the equipment dangerous if it's sending the current to the illegal grounding rod, unless you are standing barefoot in water while playing your stereo, and then you become the ground? Please don't go to your NEC code book for the answer. It's the grounding rod that is the real danger, because lightning makes it a fire hazard. On Feb. 16th I wrote above that an electrician in my club had his drapes catch on fire from lightning hitting his illegal grounding rod, for his stereo system, and that is when I pulled my illegal grounding cable out of my house. If that electricians house would have burned down an insurance adjuster would not have paid the claim. Insurance companies will not pay off for any work done to a house without an building permit, and that goes for house additions too. County governments keep accurate records of building permits all the way back to when the house was built, and the adjuster will check them before he comes to your house. In older homes there are countless pieces of equipment that do not have chassis grounds. As I'm writing this I'm also playing my stereo that has a phono section, a line preamp and dual mono power amps that all have switches to lift the chassis grounds. Those mono amps always play with the ground lifting switches in the lift position, because they sound better that way, in my system that has extremely sensitive speakers. Even if those chassis became energized they would have to stay that way as long as the sound remained better. |
... you do not even need a ground wire between your electrical meter and the first electrical panel in the house.In a single phase [home] Ground [0v] is the transformer neutral and is wired from the meter to the panel Neutral. The line is tied to the transformer case and earthed. The Line goes above and below 0v. NEC 250: Equipment grounding must comply with the National Electric Code (NEC) Article 250. All non-current-carrying metal enclosures for electrical equipment or wiring must be grounded. Equipment grounding means a continuous copper conductor connected between the grounding electrode (rod/grid) connection, at the source transformer, and at each enclosure and equipment frame. This is the most critical concept in equipment grounding. Line and Neutral are carried through to additional panels. Additional panels require the Earth Safety carried through. The Earth Safety is not Ground [0v] although it may be at 0v potential |
vv32bl Your response that me using a ground isolation receptacle and running the ground wire to an outside grounding rod does not sound logical that the circuit breaker could never trip.I never said that the breaker would never trip. Please read more carefully. What I did note is that your grounding scheme was an NEC violation and created a dangerous situation (that could be lethal) where it would fail to trip under a specific circumstance. ... you do not even need a ground wire between your electrical meter and the first electrical panel in the house ...You do in my town. In addition to NEC, you need to check local codes. From your response above anyone that did not know any better would think that even with a dead short a non defective breaker would not trip.I can’t imagine what I wrote that would lead you to that claim. You don’t quote the person to whom you respond, so it will remain a mystery, I guess. |
I recently had awg 12 20 amp 4 wire dual grounds.installed , in retrospect less resistance I may go to awg 10 , seems many use and even awg 8 my question is I only have about 40 hours on my new dedicated line . The music seems a bit tipped up now on certain music . DoesAnyone have any experience with their own dedicated outlets and roughly how many hours for 70ft of wiring to settle in, thank you. |
... your illustration only shows a 5 amp current draw on a 20 amp circuit breaker, there in not any way 5 amps could trip a normal 20 amp circuit breaker.Yes, and that’s exactly the problem, as page 29 of the reference very clearly explains. In the event that a fault in a component causes the AC line voltage to come in contact with the metal chassis of the component the breaker is supposed to trip to prevent the possibility of someone being shocked or electrocuted. But with the grounding configuration described by you and on page 29 of the reference the breaker will not trip, leaving the chassis of the component energized at 120 volts (or whatever the line voltage is in the particular country). Thus defeating the fundamental purpose of the safety ground wiring. If however there was a 5 amp short like in the page 29 schematic there is no reason that it would not be safely discharged to ground. It would be discharged to ground, but not safely because the chassis of the component would continue to be electrified at the full AC line voltage. I’m not sure how that can be explained any more clearly than it is on page 29 of the reference. Regards, -- Al |
To Almarg, Ok, so you proved my point, because your illustration only shows a 5 amp current draw on a 20 amp circuit breaker, there in not any way 5 amps could trip a normal 20 amp circuit breaker. Your circuit illustration defective equipment would have to be connected either to a ground fault receptacle or ground fault circuit breaker to be correct. Never have I seen any ground fault equipment in any ones audio chain. Ground fault receptacles are made for wet locations, so be careful whenever you touch anything connected to a live circuit. Wear non conductive shoes and only touch these items with one hand. If you do however touch an energized piece of equipment while barefoot, briefly touch only with your right hand while standing on your right foot, but it is not safe practice. Every preamp or power amp that I own has a tiny fuse of no more than five amps. My power conditioners have 20 amp circuit breakers that will trip if there was somehow a dead short pulling more than the specified 20 amps. If however there was a 5 amp short like in the page 29 schematic there is no reason that it would not be safely discharged to ground. |
The previous comment by Cleeds is 100% correct. For further explanation see page 29 of the following excellent paper, written by a distinguished expert on such matters: https://centralindianaaes.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/indy-aes-2012-seminar-w-notes-v1-0.pdf Regards, -- Al |
To Cleeds, Your response that me using a ground isolation receptacle and running the ground wire to an outside grounding rod does not sound logical that the circuit breaker could never trip. My first house did not even have any ground wires, and I blew plenty of fuses in that house. To this day you do not even need a ground wire between your electrical meter and the first electrical panel in the house. Although you do need to run a ground wire from the first panel to any other panels. Ok, I mentioned running the neutral and ground wires from that receptacle to the exterior ground rod instead of going back to the electrical panel. There was a 120v circuit between the hot from the circuit breaker and ground wire that ran to the exterior ground rod. Can you explain to me why the 20 amp circuit breaker would not trip if the circuits 20 amp breaker was overloaded, other than it being a defective breaker anyway. It does not make any sense to me that a not defective 20 amp circuit breaker could pass more than the specified amperage just because the ground did not go to the neutral or ground buss bars, that's probably rated for well over 100 amps From your response above anyone that did not know any better would think that even with a dead short a non defective breaker would not trip. You are in essence saying that it would be like not having the circuit breaker at all Sure, I know that in the rare case that an overloaded 20 amp circuit breaker fails to trip you would hope that the panels 200 amp main breaker would trip before the wire from the 20 amp circuit started a fire. Either having a defective breaker or like I said previously lightning could, and has started many fires. |
vv32bl ... I drove a new ground rod directly outside of my dedicated listening room, and connected an 8 gauge ground wire to an isolated 20 amp receptacle. That receptacle feeds my Pure Power 2000 a/c regenerator and also my APC S20 power conditioner. That isolated ground was the only ground wire for my stereo system, and did not connect to my electrical panel. It worked fine but I did not notice any great improvement in my sound.That’s an obvious NEC violation and a potentially dangerous scheme, because a fault on the ground wouldn’t trip the breaker back at the panel. That’s why all grounds must be tied together with the neutral bus bar in the service panel. |
Several years ago I drove a new ground rod directly outside of my dedicated listening room, and connected an 8 gauge ground wire to an isolated 20 amp receptacle. That receptacle feeds my Pure Power 2000 a/c regenerator and also my APC S20 power conditioner. That isolated ground was the only ground wire for my stereo system, and did not connect to my electrical panel. It worked fine but I did not notice any great improvement in my sound. Maybe I might have noticed a greater improvement if I had also ran the neutral wire to the new ground rod, or maybe not. About a year later I was talking to one of my new club members who had moved to Florida from north of Dallas Texas, and is an electrician. Since he is an electrician I told him what I had done for an isolated ground in my system. This is freaky, but he told me that he had done the exact same thing in Texas. His ground rod was struck by lightning, and traveled through the ground wire into his isolated ground receptacle, and also caught his drapes on fire. It had previously been in the back of my mind that the same thing could happen to me, because we get a tremendous amount of lightning where I live. My dedicated isolated ground receptacle is also behind my drapes, and I do not want to remove the drapes because they run the entire length of that wall. So I removed the eight gauge ground wire and reconnected the ground wire that goes to my electrical panel. In the future I may try installing a plastic box on the exterior wall by the new ground rod and leaving enough wire inside the box to reconnect to the ground rod for brief usage at times when I’m sure there will not be lightning strikes. This is entirely illegal and shows that there are solid reasons for electrical codes, and most of all to always pull an electrical permit for new electrical work. If you do not want your house to burn down do not try the above. |
HelloTo All , I never stated this was a cure all.my electrician has wired several Music studios ,and wires highly sensitive testing equipment he stated as a 30 year Master Electrician the 4wire Dual,ground ,where one is common bare wire the other dedicated insulated ground this is the best way to get the lowest noise signal. It works exceptionally well for myself and several friends who have done this. nothing more to say I was just sharing what is installed in my Audio systems. |
What many people don’t realize no matter how good your equipment design is if you are feeding ground off@audioman58 This actually isn't universally true. Its only true if the audio equipment puts current through the ground connection, which if its properly designed, it won't. What sends up a red flag for me is, if doing this made a difference, then we know that some equipment in the system has a problem. When we then know that the designer blew it when he/she designed the grounding scheme, how many other aspects of the internal grounding are correct? The thing about ground loops is even if you don't hear them as a buzz, they still affect the sound via intermodulation. |
If all circuits are to Code, AND there is a proper low resistance earth ground, you won’t have any mains circuit ground loops. If "proper low resistance earth ground" means the earth ground from the components, then that is correct. If just one component doesn't have a proper grounding scheme and is using unbalanced ICs, there is a probability of a ground-loop. |
@volumizer, so if using 12/3 instead of 12/2, you would have an extra conductor. This would need to be tied off so it is not connected, correct? Yes, you have an extra conductor, and it it not connected on either end. I'm not sure, but I think it acts like shielding with the twisted Romex. |
What many people don’t realize no matter how good your equipment design is if you are feeding ground off the same circuits you can pickup noise thst is why my electrician installed a dual ground one is common ground with other chains back to the breaker ground ,the others is totally dedicated and insulated back to the box this way no chance of contamination .he has installed the same setup to several recording studios .a noticeably blacker back ground then before . |
I spoke with my electrician today anything else but your home theatre,audio system should be on a seperate lines . my dedicated line has 4 wires 2 grounds a bare wire ground ,and a dedicated insulated ground ,this Is what sensitive instruments use,sensitive hospital testing equipment, as well as recording studios.Iam very happy with the results. |
Guys, Can anyone recommend a good dimmer switch? I do have an old school dimmer switch on some incandescent lights and imagine that could be adding noise also. Will have an electrician come out to look at box, check ground and possibly separate audio system outlet from other devices if that's still recommended. Thanks, Wig |
I completely renovated my home 14 yrs ago. My electrician ran ground from panels to 2 outside half in 8 ft copper rods in the ground. 200 amp service. When completely rewiring the home I had him run 4 separate 20 amp circuits 12/2 for my back wall audio equipment only. I put in 2 gang boxes, each was 20 amp with neutral and ground. I have never heard any humming or noise at all. All the other outlets in the room are a separate 20 and lights on a 15. As far as any other dedicated circuit way, I can not speak. The 4 separate circuits are for audio only and tv. No issues. Also have an intermatic on the main panel. I think it was 125.00 at the time. Many older homes did run same circuits in other rooms. As I said, older homes. |
Yikes! a topic like this certainly brings out a lot of ... stuff. It is this simple: 1) the house wiring should be to code2) you will not experience a ground loop unless your equipment has a grounding problem. Despite an enormous amount of information available, an amazing amount of 'high end' audio manufacturers exercise poor grounding technique in their products (put another way: don't know what they are doing). If the chassis and circuit ground are the same thing, that causes the device to be vulnerable to ground loops introduced externally (IOW, from other equipment). If adding alternate grounding systems causes an improvement, its a good sign that equipment in your system employs a poor grounding scheme. |
Rule of thumb - use only one ground for the system. That means use cheater plugs for the other 3-prong plugs. Or do what I did, hop 🐸 off the grid altogether. No more ground loops, no more micro-arcing. No more RF coming in on the AC line. No more power cords, period. No more pencils, no more books, no more teacher’s dirty looks. 😠 |
From: https://www.smartmetereducationnetwork.com/uploads/protecting-yourself-from-emfs/EMFs--Choosing%20Household%20Wiring.pdf If wanting to wire a house for lower EMF levels, using the 3-conductor twisted ROMEX 12/3 (or any other suitable AWG size) is clearly a good choice. It is about ten times as good as the standard 2-conductor ROMEX wiring. |
If one were to run 10/2 romex (hot, neutral, and ground) and connect it only to one outlet and plug everything into that and then run that line straight to main breaker and land the ground on the grounding bar, does that count? Also, what is an insulated ground? Is that just a wire with a jacket as opposed to a bare copper wire? |
Service ground is the copper rod driven into the ground, typically right beside the house and very near the meter.Nope. The Service Ground is the Powerline transformer neutral. The copper rod is for lightning protection. Many homes do not have a copper rod. They rely on the foundation rebar mesh [Ufer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_ground] or tie to the cold water inlet. Multi family building are an entirely different kettle of fish. The 3rd wire ties in the panel to the Mains transformer Neutral [Center Tap] - the wider terminal. It is the earth safety. NO current flows in the Lightning Earth Safety rod when a fault trips a breaker. Have a look at the drawing http://ielogical.com/assets/M-125/PTPolarity.jpg . It shows how ground currents can flow from transformer induced currents and poor inter-stage grounding. The lower section shows operation with power transformers in phase and a Loop Breaker installed. See https://sound-au.com/earthing.htm#s9 on Rod Elliot’s "Earthing Your Hi-Fi - Tips, Tricks and Techniques." UNLESS YOU ARE TRAINED AND 200% KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING, DO NOT MODIFY YOUR EQUIPMENT. The life you safe may be your own! "teaching the Tubes4HiFi / VTA M-125 to sing" was an exercise in getting rid of ground loop hum. http://ielogical.com/Audio/VTA_M-125.php/ The amps are 40db quieter than delivered. Adding a copper rod can make a system unsafe as the potential between the copper rod and the original earth can create a battery and eat away the rod. Acidic soils eat away copper unless there is a sacrificial less noble anode. Additional rods must be placed based on their length and the effective length of the existing earthing scheme. Placing a rod willy nilly may increase the impedance and reduce the effectiveness of the earth lightning safety connection. @millercarbon: Please do not pontificate on things that may make a system lethal. |
Ground loops occur when the resistance between any two or more grounding points is high enough to cause enough of a voltage drop to be detected & amplified. To reduce this: 1) Attach ALL your devices that handle signal circuits to a STAR configuration, ie to the SAME outlet/plug, with short mains wires. That is your turntable, subwoofer, amp, preamp, DAC, etc. If you do this, make sure you have a 20-30 Amp circuit to be able to carry the load of your megawatt amplifier. The more the better (and more expensive). AND/OR 2) Use NON COPPER signal connections if you can (optical or fm/radio/wifi). AND/OR 3) If you must use MULTIPLE outlets/plugs (no other choice), make sure the resistance of the EARTH connection between those 2 (or more plugs) is as close to ZERO ohms (the THICKER/OFC the wire the better) as possible. If you do one or a combination of these, you will not have a hum problem. |
Eliminating ground loops has more to do with product design than electrical wiring, the latter of which should simply be to code.Actually its neither. Bottom line is ONE reference - regardless of what that is too (virtual earth, actual dirt, etc.). Product design can give some tools, but anyone can thwart a designed by connecting several products together (RCAs carry signal ground) and grounding them to subtly different points - e.g.: different outlets. A dedicated line is good but has nothing to do with loops per se (you cant have a loop with one wire!). A dedicated ground is good, but you can;t have two (the one the electrician made and the one you run). Bottom line: back to what i said - everything grounded to one, single potential, in a "shortest path star" config. And burn incense. :-) G |
If you run a dedicated 12 gauge (or lower) Romex (etc.) to your rig, and use a plastic box, then you already have an " Isolated dedicated ground." You only need an IG if you don’t have a dedicated run.Sort of. Technically the dedicated run will be grounded back at the panel, which in turn is grounded to the service ground. Service ground is the copper rod driven into the ground, typically right beside the house and very near the meter. Which you probably know. The OP and all his comments are so infernally confusing even I was just about totally lost. The link he provides is just as bad, not one word on the page saying what exactly they mean by IGR. Had to follow a link to another page where finally it says: IGRs are bonded directly to the service entrance grounding system. So there you go. The OP had an electrician install an outlet with a ground wire running all the way back to service ground. |
There were cases when I worked at a Central Telephone Office, that the grounding of some circuits/equipment was particularly important. One thing in particular that I recall was at the ground bus bar. We would connect the equipment as close to the main ground connection of that bus, and not further away. |
Agree with @atmasphere and @andy2. Ground-loop is caused by components having different ground potential. This begins with the design of the grounding scheme. Some designs share a signal ground and a safety ground, or some components don't have the earth ground bonded to the chassis. I agree that wiring the duplex with an isolated ground to the circuit panel ground does reduce noise from other devices and appliances in the home. Using a self-grounded receptacle is not the way to go. |
For the. Record ,their seems to be some confusion here,I can’t guarantee every buzz will be eliminated I am no expert. I just know myself and 2 other Audiophile friends can clearly hear the improvements. As the electrician said even if you have a dedicated line ,if the ground is not dedicated totally isolated ,then it potentially can share ground noise off other electrical branches .and if in a condo even much more so . I am just sharing with what worked real well myself and others. |
My Electrician friend did the work and has a Masters license it is connected to both audio outlets, then grounded to the main ground in the box I believe not positive ,for sure it is much quieter and 2 other friends did the same thing with Excellent results they have World class systems over $100k with $3k line conditioners before hand. Please see the link below. https://spyrkaelectric.com/heres-what-you-need-to-know-about-an-isolated-ground-receptacle/ |
I think ground loop is caused by equipment not having the same ground potential. If A and B have different ground potential, then a small current will be created between A and B and it is caused by equipment design defect. Or it could be caused by the "Earth ground" connection impedance is not low enough which could be caused by defect in the earth wiring line. If this is the case then disconnect the earth ground connection could eliminate the problem but this could cause safety issue. |
Eliminating ground loops has more to do with product design than electrical wiring, the latter of which should simply be to code. If messing with already code wiring makes an improvement, that points to problems in the equipment itself. The balanced line system has as one of its goals the elimination of ground loops, since ground is ignored when sending signals in interconnect cables. Most 'high end audio' products ignore this simple fact though- buyer beware. |
Audioman58, is this what you are using... https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/tnpla/54032123?cid=ppc-google-Returning+-+Lighting+%26+Electrical+-... |
