If I could afford, I’d purchase 100% Oswald Mills Audio gear

 

Someone here scheduled a vacation for himself and wife near them, and pre-arranged a visit/tour/listening session with the owner.

Then, dream on or ........

People buy things for their looks rather than their sound? What would such people be doing on this site (beyond annoying us)?

You can get solid construction for much less, maybe not lumber/timber but Baltic ply, which has performance advantages over plain timber. The wood on Fleetwood's speakers is stabilized by torrefaction, which is an improvement, but at a cost. They are worth more than cheaper-made, including those with Baltic ply, but does that mean $22K a pair? I don't happen to think so, but the marketing at Fleetwood aims at low-volume at a high price with fewer buyers at a tier that isn't shopping for the lowest-priced OMA speaker, which is probably better but of course at a cost of $15-20K over the Fleetwoods.(Monitor and Mini.)

I am happy to see someone making what OMA makes. It is a marker for what is possible if money is not limited, and different from so many other halo product producers at the highest cost tier. I am also happy to see what others with a similar respect for vintage design are doing, Tim Gurney and Vu Hoang with their reinterpretations of Western Electric theater horns. Theirs aren't attainable for most either, but the craft isn't dead because of them and the few like them, and that is reassuring.

Thanks for your candor and responding, Mike.

@lewm 

i have changed my mind on my perspective about the K3 since my comments above, in October 2021, eighteen months ago. a month after i made those comments, i spent 2 days at a small local audio show where Michael Fremer was present, and was able to talk to him quite a bit and about the K3 particularly.

i don't now consider that the K3 is lacking in musical sustain and my expectation would be that along with it's other attributes that i would be more than satisfied in that regard. which is in contrast to how i had read Michael's review comments.

so right now i would view the K3 "as" my cup of tea. unfortunately i'm not in a position to be in that price range for a turntable. and if i was not sure it would be my top choice, but it would for sure be high on the list.

Interesting perhaps for Mike Lavigne, I just read M Fremer’s review of the Lino C phono stage, which was done using the Krebs K3 and the Schroeder K3 tonearm as source components.He makes a specific point that “sustain” was for him a remarkable virtue of that combination regardless of cartridge. So we have one opinion that may be in conflict with Mike’s privately offered sample.

@dover.  You keep track of my qualifications and my alleged transgressions on A'Gon. Really?

For the record. I hold a New Zealand Certificate in Engineering (electrical). Back then it was a 5-year part time or 3-year full time qualification from Auckland University of Technology. Pretty sure that this is a tertiary Engineering qualification. 

I let my work speak for itself and would be more than happy to engage in respectful, meaningful peer to peer discussion on my design choices and theirs. There are many ways to build a TT and I admire other designers who have pushed the envelope with their innovative creations. Their designs are a genuine effort to advance the medium. Hopefully we are collectively holding the analogue flag high.

Cheers. 

 

Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder. I on the other hand, would avoid OMA gear - tons of better stuff out there at a lesser price. Way overpriced.

 

I totally agree, lots of snake oil.

 

Perhaps, but why over years have you been so persistently antagonistic toward Richard? 

Thats not true.

In actual fact if you read the thread on the Eminent Technology air bearing arm I simply disputed his suggestion of adding 30 grams of mass to the arm and removing the patented decoupled counterweight and replacing it with a rigid bolt.

He argued for almost 12 months on why adding 30g of mass was a good thing ( along with much junk logic ), and then some time later claimed he hadn't in fact added 30 grams of mass.

Ditto on the thread on direct drive vs idler vs belt he claimed the Goldmund DD motor had a sampling rate of 34000 which he conceded later was not correct.

You falsely assume because someone disagrees there must be antagonism, which is simply not correct.

 

 

 

Perhaps, but why over years have you been so persistently antagonistic toward Richard? In any case, it’s my fault, not Richard’s that I erroneously credited him with a degree. 

Richard Krebs designed and probably built at least the first prototypes of K3. Richard is an honorable gentleman and a qualified engineer. 

Richard is not a qualified engineer. I have known him for 30 plus years - he has an electrical certificate from Air New Zealand when he was an apprentice in their service department, but he has no tertiary education in engineering.

Richard Krebs designed and probably built at least the first prototypes of K3. Richard is an honorable gentleman and a qualified engineer. The K3 evidently went where Richard’s brain took it. None of us know what we don’t know about it, so perhaps silence is golden when it comes to a critique. Even Mike has only third person knowledge. I am no big fan of the OMA proprietor either, but that’s no reason to denigrate the K3.

I thought so too at first. The reality is that Jonathan Weiss is a nasty, vile, human being. He ends up burning his relationships. Ask around and you’ll see…

Character of the founder is important when you are buying at this level. It’s a hobby and a pastime that is meant to bring the owner pleasure. Dealing with nasty people negates the benefits.

He also doesn’t know that much about audio. If you question his statements, you’ll find out that he builds on kernels of truth that he then distorts erroneously. I can cite many examples, one of which is how he used a cutting lathe as a model for the K3. Cutting lathes do NOT make good models for turntables. They serve opposite roles. His use of cast iron and belief that it’s a unique high-end material is laughable… he thinks that the more powerful the motor, the greater the sonic benefits… that’s just wrong. 

I would not have OMA in my system even if it were free.

@chakster 
A friend pointed me to this thread. I don’t know how I missed it
re your comment about me posting details on K3’s design and development here… I don’t think that it would be appropriate, as it would effectively be a marketing exercise. Not what A’gon is for.
That said, if anyone wants to pm me with questions, I would be be happy to reply privately. Cheers 

The question in my mind is where on the scale of importance is exact speed control vs. other issues that a turntable has to address. For example, does the ability to deal with spurious sonic energy matter more, or less? Certainly all parameters matter, particularly when you are taking such small signals and the ability to reproduce same, but what is the order of significance?
This seems to be something that turntable designers have yet to come to full agreement on.
OTOH, the cost to address some of these issues seems to be greater with ultra precise speed control than some of the other variables. Do we agree on that, and more importantly, do we agree that this is where the money should be spent firstly?

Lew; of course, this is exactly why we own multiple turntables, or move from one to another. it’s to find the exact musical equation that brings us the most listening pleasure. or maybe some just like collecting?

plinth shape in and of itself a dominant indication of presentation? never considered it before. OTOH a plinth plays a huge role in performance i agree.

certainly the Rockport, NVS and CS Port all have a big sound, the NVS and Rockport being more ultra dynamic in degrees, plus big and bold. unlimited really. but my room now is more supportive of that than when i had the Rockport......so hard to know exactly between those 2.

the Rockport has a 200 pound air suspended plinth made of a lead/steel carbon fibre encased sandwich. the NVS a cast aluminum skeleton. the CS Port and small square hunk of granite.

none large and square. but all very ’engineered’.

the Saskia idler is more focused and less expansive than these others, but that plays wonderfully to the forward lean to the bass, and tonal density that works for my favorite jazz pressings. is this related to the plinth shape? i tend to see the 180 pound slate Saskia plinth as adding heft and solidity, and the Pabst motor idler mechanical’s more scale related than the plinth.

best-groove, For what it's worth, I referenced MF's review in my response to Mijostyn only with respect to MF's description of the construction and how dampening (or damping, if you prefer) was achieved.  I made no mention of MF's opinions about anything.
Mike, Thanks for your candid response.  I am totally unfamiliar with the CS Port turntable, except to know it is very expensive.  I will do some research on it, only to satisfy my curiosity; I am not a candidate to buy one.  Each of us, or at least many of us, have in mind a particular quality that catches our attention immediately, with any new turntable as with any of several other choices we make in life.  If the thing lacks that triggering emotional quality, what comes next in terms of a general impression is usually not enough.  For me, with turntables, I want to hear a "big", room-filling sound.  I have the general impression that turntables with conventional plinth designs that afford a broad rectangular flat deck surrounding the platter are less likely to sound big than are turntables where the plinth is circular with borders that extend not very far from the circumference of the platter.  I think that may mean that the conventional rectangular plinths reflect spurious sonic energy generated as the stylus traces the groove, and that this may have a deleterious effect on the apparent expansiveness of the sound stage.  On the other hand, the word "sustain" means very little to me; I ascribe that quality to the cartridge/tonearm and the LP, I guess.  Never thought much about it in detail.

@lewm

Mike, have you heard the K3 or are you extrapolating from your vast prior experience as to its sonic character? Also, would you care to mention which of your turntables wins the sustain trophy? I’m guessing it’s a belt drive type.

my take is based on feedback; (1) mostly Fremer’s review, but also.....(2) feedback from ears i trust who has heard it in Fremer’s room, and (3) feedback that people who have heard digital transfers from it compared to other similar transfers from other tt’s under review.

all those sources are saying the same thing. they respect it, but hear what it’s doing.....and not doing.

my take is also based on looking at the design and how it approaches each design aspect. having owned a number of direct drive turntables; the Rockport Sirius III, which had an air suspension, air bearing, and linear tracking air bearing arm. the Technics SP-10 Mk2 and Mk3, EMT 948 and Wave Kinetics NVS with active isolation.......the presentation feedback for the K3 approach, connects the dots completely. it’s exactly what i would expect.

the K3 ultra focus on speed accuracy maybe does not yield the musical benefits that were intended. a little too ’left brain’ maybe. matters of taste and preference i suppose. the K3 miight be the perfect answer for some.

i’m sure it’s a dynamite turntable and does it’s thing superlatively. the question being whether you like ’it’s thing’ $360k or not. at a more reasonable price point it would be fun to have this formula one car of turntables sitting here to do hot laps. but music is more than hot laps to me.

as far as my turntable that absolutely does sustain most beautifully; that is the CS Port LFT1; which uses a non feedback motor, driving a aramid thread ’belt’, with a 100 pound granite plinth, a 60 pound stainless platter, with low flow, low pressure air bearing, air float platter and air bearing arm. it’s magical with delicacy and nuance, yet boggies and does scale and beautiful bass impact and textures. very micro-dynamically ’alive’....but always human sounding. the Saskia model two idler also is no slouch at sustain, and once i added the active isolation to the NVS it’s sustain improved.

i like all my turntables plenty, and sustain is not everything. but my choice of listening does seem to be drawn to it.

an aspect of music that is essential to me is a liquid, grainless, continuousness. a humanity if you will. sustain is a part of that idea.

If you read MF’s review........

Sorry Lewn but here let me disagree.
MF is just a voice among millions of fans, certainly he is not the spokes person for all the audiophiles in the world who says it is true are shared 100% by all.

I gave up believing the personal opinions of journalists or reviewers also because apart from the experience, the ears have become old and the drop at high frequencies is inevitable, so what can reviews that are only personal opinions serve?

The turntable does not convince me, however, also because there are no explanations on the technical reasons and the measurements in the field that dictated the choices for its construction so .... IHMO thumbs down.

Mike, have you heard the K3 or are you extrapolating from your vast prior experience as to its sonic character? Also, would you care to mention which of your turntables wins the sustain trophy? I’m guessing it’s a belt drive type.

Agree. The fact that there are still folks willing to try and push the SOTA in high end vinyl is definitely something to be applauded. With the stand that goes along with the OMA, most designers will have an easier job integrating the package into the summer house. 

i will add that i enthusiastically applaud OMA’s efforts to build their vision of a SOTA turntable. and even admire their road less traveled. i’m glad to be a vinyl lover at a time when these type products exist and that we have the marketplace to sustain them.

i’m betting that the hedge fund whales will have their interior designers spec’ing this new "bauble to have" enough times to keep the OMA fires burning. hard core vinyl lovers? the jury is out. unlikely that 'we' are the target audience.

@mikelavigne You fall into the category of discriminating buyer who dismisses this table based on the ability of the competition. I question as to how many of these manufacturer’s really know who or what the competition is?...and more importantly how it performs. For example, I would acquire the Basis Transcendence in a heart beat before I would consider the new OMA K3....and at a fraction of the price! The Basis holds on to the notes (the recreation of sustain, which BTW has to be on the LP in the first place, and in many cases simply is not) in a far superior manner to any table I have ever heard...including my previous reference for this..the Clearaudio Statement.
I agree with you 100%, performance is the only arbiter to judge these tables by, not aesthetics....although it doesn’t hurt to have both.

as a consumer of expensive turntables, i’m a candidate for the K3. what does that mean? if sufficiently motivated, i could re-task some of my hifi system assets into the K3. (not suggesting that there are not others here that could also buy a K3, but i’m also committed enough to vinyl to actually pull the trigger).

but the K3 is not my cup of tea sonically. it does not sufficiently hold onto the the note sustain. it cuts it off. is that musical truth? what does truth mean?

i own 4 turntables which all deal with note sustain differently, and i tend to prefer the one that does it longest, then play the one least that does it least.

the lack of vacuum hold-down is not a deal killer for me, but the musical implications of the fluid suspension as opposed to other approaches only make the note sustain issue worse. and raise the noise floor which is also a factor.

i’m fine with the aesthetics, even the arm (i’m a fan of Mr. Schroder’s arms) and while Jonathan has not always played nice, i could move past that long enough to buy one if it sounded like it would have to, to justify my commitment to it.

for me it starts and ends with performance.

@lewm You make a very good point about the OMA being dismissed because it costs $360K! If the table was priced at say $20K or less, i would also question how many folks would still dismiss it? OTOH, the price asked is more than likely going to be unjustifiable to all but those with very deep pockets, and maybe even those folk will still dismiss it based on the competition. The question I have with a lot of this gear, and one that fails to ever really get answered, is why price something like the OMA K3 at only $360K, why not price it at $3.6M or more?? After all, the same buyer is going to be interested......and the rest will still have the same opinion.

Mijo, You wrote, in reference to the K3: "It's three failings are it's lack of isolation, a dust cover and vacuum clamping."
I think your orthodoxy is getting in the way of your logic.  If you read MF's review, you will see that instead of "isolation", which to you means springs, air, or the Minus K, the K3 uses high mass plus internal fluid dampening, in the plinth, motor, and in the platter.  So it is inaccurate to say the K3 does not give a thought to the dissipation of spurious energy, which after all is the purpose of a "suspension".  Further, how do we know it does not have a dust cover?  I have never known MF to display photos of TTs with their dust covers in place.  The only dust cover I find handy is one that protects the platter from dust when the TT is not in use.  They're easy to fabricate, but of course that would be beneath the dignity of anyone who can own the K3.  Further, further, vacuum clamping does not come without its sonic costs. (It certainly added an audible coloration with my SOTA Star Sapphire III, albeit that was 25 years ago, so I will assume SOTA does better with vacuum clamping these days.)  Note also that not every megabuck turntable is wedded to vacuum clamping.  So it is an arguable benefit or detriment, depending upon implementation.  There's a couple of vacuum mat accessories on the market these days, so anyone can have that feature if it is wanted. (I think OMA would go into shock if any buyer added a $1000 or so vacuum mat to that mammoth damped platter.)  My major point is that neither you nor I nor anyone else who has dripped vitriole on the K3 has ever heard it.  Surely you would not dismiss such a product out of hand just because it does not fulfill your 3 favorite fetishes. We dismiss it because it costs $360,000.

@lewm , I'm not inclined to think that form has any function but what do I know about it. Can't tell from the picture how the arm works but Mr Schroder comes up with very novel approaches and I can now tell you from first hand experience that he knows what he is doing. I also know for a fact that you are not buying one either. It's three failings are it's lack of isolation, a dust cover and vacuum clamping. Three strikes and...

@chakster , nice to hear.

Clearthinker, tell that to Malcolm Sayer:-) In the words of Enzo?

@cleeds , So nice to hear from you again.

The K3 has essentially the same form factor as any of Krebs’ developmental prototypes. I’ve seen photos along the way. Richard worked on this project for years before he joined forces with OMA. In designing and adapting the cast iron plinth that dominates the exterior appearance, it seems that physics and cosmetics came together to give the K3 an Art Deco look. It’s not bling; it’s form following function. I like it.

Hard pass for me on aesthetics and price. But I’m glad there are folks he like it. 

" The tonearm is made from an erector set ; 0 "
From the OMA website:" The K3 tonearm is the creation of world renowned tonearm designer/maker Frank Schroder of Berlin. Frank created the K3 arm to be consistent with the project's innovative and technically revolutionary spirit as much as with its bold appearance. The arm is the first to be made using the 3D metal printing process known as SLM (Selective Laser Melting), whereby an aerospace aluminum alloy powder is fused by a laser into a form impossible to fabricate any other way. The ratio of bending/torsional stiffness to weight is extremely high, the tonearm's low mass counterweight is decoupled by its own thread suspension/bearing assembly system which effectively decouples it from the main arm wand and prevents any energy storage in the counterweight section, an often overlooked detriment to sonic purity . The integrated Azimuth- and VTF-finetuning contributes to the ease of set up and use, same for the neutral balance mass distribution of the arm, which accounts for near zero change in tracking force for any change in VTA or record thickness. The Schroder K3 arm is only available as part of the K3 turntable package. "
It is still ugly.

@bestgroove

ohh no no no ..... the follies FOR the wealthy!

Very succinct.
Indeed - perhaps the OMA represents the Folies Bergere of the audio world. Perhaps they deliver it with silk knickers for cleaning and a special costume to cope with stylus drag.

Oh the follies of the wealthy!

ohh no no no ..... the follies FOR the wealthy!

Oh the follies of the wealthy! 

It is an interesting design exercise. I do not care for it's looks either. It is not a turntable I would buy even if I had the money to throw away. I would be more inclined to get an Air Force Zero. Now, that is one sharp looking piece of metal.

Jonathan, the owner, is a very interesting guy with interesting ideas.  He knows a lot about the history of audio and has an impressive collection of audio antiques to match.  He is an iconoclast. I will not be purchasing any of his unusual products but I am indeed now more knowledgeable having watched his videos which are available on the internet.

No thanks, however beautiful and well built, I'll keep my sorry ass sugden and tannoys...maybe someday I'll buy a Linn Sondek turntable and call it a day.

Yawn….”it costs so much, it must suck”….. “anyone who spends that much on xyz must be dumb”….. “no way its 100,000 times better than my Crosley”.

If someone hasnt heard it, they are just speculating with absolutely no data.

Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder. I on the other hand, would avoid OMA gear - tons of better stuff out there at a lesser price. Way overpriced.

very wise opinion!

That table is hideous, You would have to not let anyone in your audio room.

it has baffled several esoteric audiophile clubs around the world; that if you speak badly you just need to talk!

Most of the cost of that TT is in the fuse they use.

Haha. Brilliant:)

Most of the cost of that TT is in the fuse they use. 

Huh?

lewm

Megabuck turntables are only a byproduct of societal problems ...

Huh? Do you think expensive turntables are designed by homeless people, or what?

Gratitude and a give back / pay it forward attitude will take you far, no matter the station in life.

My foot doctor share a building with a small church. And i mean small, yet they run a food bank.

Grace and peace.

Communism was a failure, and now capitalism has run amok. If this makes you angry, then spend some time and energy in the political arena to promote a more level playing field. Megabuck turntables are only a byproduct of societal problems and not worth the angst.

@arcticdeth 



How can you assume that "the 1%" don't appreciate from whence they came? Your assumptions may make you feel more justified that you wouldn't even if you could...the human mind does that....assumes that one's lot in life and how they got there as the right path....but there are many right paths and achieving financial success and wealth isn't an automatic ticket to making dumb purchases.

One thing you categorically get wrong in your post: There is zero chance, absolutely zero, that the person you described in your post is going to be driving their 7 figure gear home in their own car, not in this price range. Beside, it won't all fit. LOL.

Hahahahaha. Wow, those prices! :)

the %1 will buy, because, to them high dollars means the absolute best. And dropping 1.2M on an audio system would feel good once you are driving the gear home.
If, ...IF, we had this money, which we never ever will, would NOT spend that much on audio gear, coming from nothing, sweat, blood, hard work is respected by our family, those born into money, or who make to much young, won’t k ow the work it takes to just being able to “get by” and have an extra hundred bucks after, gas, water, garbage, electric, the stupid as fu*k tv,internet prices.

I did stay at a holiday inn last night.....😀

seriously, would not spend that kind of money if I had 20X that.
there is a lot of amazing stuff out there. If we had the cash, I would definitely get the new Carver silver seven mono’s, a pair of the new Iridium monos’ as the base of my second system.
Build 4 bitchen complete systems for the price of only that fugly TT. 
The Iridium monoblocs need a much larger power supply, only 600W at 4Ohm, 400W in 8

SOME PEOPLE DONT appreciate what they have.
when you become stable, and,come from almost nothing, you appreciate what you have.

Hi mijostyn

Cars are not to look at, they are for driving.

"A fisherman always spots another fisherman from afar"

"If you are on an audio forum debating the merit of a $400k turntable, I can promise, you are not their target audience."

EXACTLY !!!