Interconnects, some have directional indicators, why?
I'm curious as to why some interconnects are directional? Is there a physical internal difference and do they generally sound better and cost more than non-directional cables? Thanks for your interest.
Thanks for your response. I missed the line voltage for the amp is 240V. I went back and reread the post and sure enough the OP said it was 240V for the new amp as well.
Thanks for the response. I had already read about the
Poynting vector
after you posted about it on another thread last week. I supplied the link for others reading your previous post. Jim
Kijanki, thanks for the good comments about the Poynting Vector etc.
Jim, wow, the Boulder 3060 is certainly quite a monster -- 441 pounds including its 86 pound granite base, a price well north of $100K, and 6000 watts max power draw. Given the latter, it is of course designed for use with 240VAC, not 120.
Regarding your question, I doubt that anyone could provide more than a wild guess. Partly because the effects on the AC waveform of the 8 foot run you described wouldn’t seem to have a great deal of predictability, partly because those effects would seem likely to be less significant than variations in AC waveform characteristics and voltages among different locations, and partly because we don’t have detailed knowledge of the internal design of the amp. And even if we did have detailed knowledge of the amp’s design it seems quite conceivable to me that extensive tests and measurements would have to be run to pin down the specific sonic character of whatever effects might result, if any.
Jim, electromagnetic field would be contained in conduit or even braid. Very often explanation of Poynting Field brings example of coaxial cable, showing that whole energy flows thru dielectric between the wire and the shield. As for Boulder 3060 amp - I don't know. Perhaps somebody else? Al?
jetter "Geoff, above and in many discussions you have stated that the wire drawing process impacts the wire crystal structure making it inherently directional.
Assuming it does, I think the question is does this impacted crystal structure in some way make an audible sound difference when the wire is inserted into a system in one direction or the other?"
imo the answer is yes. whether the wire is the wire in a cable, in a transformer, wire in a fuse or capacitor or in the internal wiring in electronics or speaker. Thus when you reverse unshielded interconnects that are in all outward appearances symmetrical you should notice the sound change for the better or worse, depending on whetyer they were connected in the correct direction to begin with or not.
jetter also wrote,
"One might think that in order for it to make a difference, the signal, power, whatever, would need to flow differently depending on the direction of the crystal structure. This would imply that if the wire was inserted incorrectly from a directionality viewpoint, the crystals are impeding, or in my obviously non scientific terms ,snagging and impeding the signal or power compared to the correct direction and this somehow impacts the sound."
That’s right, imo. The wire is phyically asymmetrical, like the quills on the back of a porcupine. i would say this asymmetry causes distortion of the audio signal, even if the wire (fuse) is located where the power cord comes into the amplifier, even if the wire is located in an AC circuit. it is audible and measurable.
Current in the wire is a flow of electric charge. Wire creates magnetic field but transports charges and not the energy. Energy is transferred thru magnetic field from the source to the load. The load has some voltage drop in it, hence electric field. Together with magnetic field, this brings the energy in. Same way, the source generates voltage and, together with magnetic field, this brings the energy out. Direction of electromagnetic energy flow is determined by the Poynting vector, E × H, and depends on both voltage polarity (through E) and current direction (through H). As I understand it, even in DC circuit energy flows from source to load thru the space in direction of Poynting Vector.
I have a question, off subject of this thread. I would appreciate hearing your thoughts.
What would the AC waveform of a 120V Branch circuit look like where the hot, neutral, and equipment grounding, conductors are all braided together and then installed inside a steel conduit? The branch circuit is less than 8ft long. The Conductors are #12, I believe stranded wire.
What impact would the 3 braided wires inside the conduit have on the electromagnetic wave traveling down the braided wires from the source to the load?
Could it have an impact on the power supply of a big power amp? (Boulder 3060 amp) Could it cause a comment like this, " but still has a layer of syrup over the presentation that shouldn’t be there and loose bass". Thanks, Jim
atmasphere "we’re talking about metals that are 99.999999% (sic) pure in the case of copper. This is a common myth! No copper produced for audiophile or other uses is better than 99.99%. Anyone telling you anything else is lying. The fact is that while copper can be made pretty pure (in which case its state looks more silvery than copper colored) but the simple process of extrusion with an insulation insures that 99.99% is the best you get. If you want proof just look at the color of the wire.
Further, oxygen-free copper was not developed for audiophiles. It was developed for alternators and generators for their brushes, because oxygen-free copper is more flexible. Once oxygen-free copper has been in the field for a few weeks, its purity is about the same as regular copper.
IOW the ’6 nines’ copper thing is a marketing myth. Anyone tells you they have that turn the other way and run as hard as you can."
I’m not referring to oxygen free copper, which is 3 or 4 nines copper. I’m referring to 6N copper, 99.9999% - not to mention the Japanese who have had 7N copper wire for many years. Hel-looo! Besides, why should I believe someone who doesn’t know the difference between a magnetic field and an electromagnetic wave?
even if you’re right (which i doubt) the purity of say 2 or 3 nines copper does not leave much room for impurities, at least not enough to produce directionality, which is what kraftsound was pushing in his previous post. Even if there were 5% impurities in audio wire which there’s obviously not, there’s no reason to think that the impurities would favor one direction over the other. If it doesn’t make sense it’s not true.
kraftsound 8 posts 12-06-2016 10:00am +geoffkait Sure, extrusion does stretch the metal and as I wrote that may indeed be a factor that can explain inherent directionality. I can’t find any other…
I’m not talking about stretching. I'm talking about deformation of the crystal lattice structures as the wire goes through the die. Don’t put words in my mouth. Besides, stretching alone is a symmetrcial phenonemon and would not explain directionality.
then kraftsound wrote,
"But you are wrong in the statement that all metals are crystalline. They are NOT!"
Copper, silver and gold are comprised of crystal lattice structures. YOU are wrong!
Metals are in in their basic state polycrystalline, that is they consist of many small crystals "grains" with amorphous atoms in between them. There is a significant difference but that is besides the main point of our discussion.
You playing word games. pure metals and nearly pure metals comprise symmetrical lattice structures, as I already said. They are not amorphous. That is exactly the point of this discussion. Hel-looo!
then kraftsound wrote,
"What kind of test would be more accurate than a double blind test? If such a test can’t detect any directionality with some kind of consistency it simply does not exist but is only a figment of illusion. If it does exist then we have encountered a manufacturing problem with regards to the quality of the cable in question!"
as I already said whatever test you come up with is subject to the vagaries of the system used for the test and the hearing of the subject. i assume you would make a lousy test subject given your attitude. if a test is negative it actally means nothing. It’s only a data point. If many tests are positive you can throw out the negative ones, the outliers.
then kraftsound wrote,
"If extrusion does cause significant irregularities in the metal structure I would humbly like to suggest to any serious manufacturer who detects such effects to simply make up their cables with half of the strands in one direction and the other half in the other in order to eliminate this problem all together as directionality only can be classified as a manufacturing defect. All it takes is respooling half of the bobins containing the individual strands and that is easily done...
Uh, the irregularities cannot be avoided. How else would you suggest fabricating wire? a mold? Apparently only audiophiles are concerned about this issue. It’s not really a defect since performance of the wire, e.g. resistance, is almost identical in both directions. by the way I'm referring to solid core copper or silver, although the directionality would also be true for stranded as long as all of the strands are in the "same direction."
then kraftsound wrote,
"Maybe it’s only because I have used well made cables in this respect when testing reversing them that I have not detected any audible differences with regards to their orientation. That may, of course, be the case! No doubt about that..."
maybe your hearing is not what you think it is. or they may be a mistake on your system. Who knows? A great many audiophiles have heard directionality. you would be in the minority.
then kraftsound wrote,
"I’m, as I stated, not saying that inherent directionality in cables does not exist. I’m just trying to resolve the problem that many obviously have experienced when using poorly designed cables. In a well made cable any sort of directionality should NOT be detectable!"
Sorry to report all wires and all cables are directional.
"And, yes, I am a physicist as well as a professional sound engineer and techie so I’m only concerned with scientifically relevant issues…
And, yes, your comment make sense to me! :-) I’m just trying to lift the discussion to a scientific level… :-) I have just not simply yet encountered any such crappy cables..."
I don’t know why you keep implyng ths discussion is not at a scientific level. some of what you yourself have stated here is either misstatements or simply untrue.
we’re talking about metals that are 99.999999% pure in the case of copper.
This is a common myth! No copper produced for audiophile or other uses is better than 99.99%. Anyone telling you anything else is lying. The fact is that while copper can be made pretty pure (in which case its state looks more silvery than copper colored) but the simple process of extrusion with an insulation insures that 99.99% is the best you get. If you want proof just look at the color of the wire.
Further, oxygen-free copper was not developed for audiophiles. It was developed for alternators and generators for their brushes, because oxygen-free copper is more flexible. Once oxygen-free copper has been in the field for a few weeks, its purity is about the same as regular copper.
IOW the '6 nines' copper thing is a marketing myth. Anyone tells you they have that turn the other way and run as hard as you can.
+geoffkait Sure, extrusion does stretch the metal and as I wrote that may indeed be a factor that can explain inherent directionality. I can’t find any other… But you are wrong in the statement that all metals are crystalline. They are NOT! Metals are in in their basic state polycrystalline, that is they consist of many small crystals "grains" with amorphous atoms in between them. There is a significant difference but that is besides the main point of our discussion.
What kind of test would be more accurate than a double blind test? If such a test can’t detect any directionality with some kind of consistency it simply does not exist but is only a figment of illusion. If it does exist then we have encountered a manufacturing problem with regards to the quality of the cable in question!
If extrusion does cause significant irregularities in the metal structure I would humbly like to suggest to any serious manufacturer who detects such effects to simply make up their cables with half of the strands in one direction and the other half in the other in order to eliminate this problem all together as directionality only can be classified as a manufacturing defect. All it takes is respooling half of the bobins containing the individual strands and that is easily done...
Maybe it’s only because I have used well made cables in this respect when testing reversing them that I have not detected any audible differences with regards to their orientation. That may, of course, be the case! No doubt about that...
I’m, as I stated, not saying that inherent directionality in cables does not exist. I’m just trying to resolve the problem that many obviously have experienced when using poorly designed cables. In a well made cable any sort of directionality should NOT be detectable!
And, yes, I am a physicist as well as a professional sound engineer and techie so I’m only concerned with scientifically relevant issues…
And, yes, your comment make sense to me! :-) I’m just trying to lift the discussion to a scientific level… :-) I have just not simply yet encountered any such crappy cables...
Geoff, above and in many discussions you have stated that the wire drawing process impacts the wire crystal structure making it inherently directional.
Assuming it does, I think the question is does this impacted crystal structure in some way make an audible sound difference when the wire is inserted into a system in one direction or the other?
One might think that in order for it to make a difference, the signal, power, whatever, would need to flow differently depending on the direction of the crystal structure. This would imply that if the wire was inserted incorrectly from a directionality viewpoint, the crystals are impeding, or in my obviously non scientific terms ,snagging and impeding the signal or power compared to the correct direction and this somehow impacts the sound.
"I’m not saying that inherent directionality does not exist but until someone presents a double blind test along the lines of the test suggested above I’m very sceptical about it’s existence since it does not make any sense at all theoretically. Even if you turn the cable around the strands are still twisted the same way and every other factor also remains the same."
A double blind test is just one data point. so if the results are negative one cannot make generalities regarding directionality, i.e. wires or fuses are not directional. there are many reasons why a double blind test might fail, just like any test: e.g., operator error, system has at least one error preventling full resolution.
"Could it be that the extrusion process would impart an inherit direction? Not very likely since atoms are 100% symmetrical and identical and all impurities in the material are distributed completely at random. The whole concept of inherent directionality in cables just does not make any sense to me as a scientist and if it really does exist it must be possible to scientifically explain the reasons for it.
Can someone please do THAT? Not just present a lot of hocus-pocus statements that have no scientific relevance at all..."
The metal conductors are crystal structures, they are not amorphous. Atoms are arranged in crystal lattices, which are unique for each metal. All metals are crystals. directionality is produced by distortion of the original symmetrical crystal structure that exists after the molten metal is poured. hammering, rolling, drawing, bending - they all distort/deform the crystal structure. Drawing the wire through a die deforms the crystal structure such that the wire is made unsymmetrical and non-homogeneous, like the quills on a porcupine’s back. So, wire is INHERENTLY directional.
You can ignore impurities in the wire since we’re talking about metals that are 99.999999% pure in the case of copper.
Can anyone please show the result of a scientifically performed double blind test using, let's say, 10 different manufacturers brand new 4' cables connected in the two different directions but otherwise identical and a panel of 10 listeners?
Then the cables should be "burnt-in" for a period of one month. the test repeated and then reversed and "burnt-in" again for the same period and a third test performed using the same identical set-up.
If the result is 2/3-1/3 or more in favor of one direction it would be a statistically significantly proven fact that inherent cable directionality is indeed relevant…
Personally I have never noticed any difference when turning a symmetrically terminated interconnect cable around but that is of course no proof that directionality do not indeed exist in some cases.
The current flow in unbalanced IC's is negligible. Input impedances are in the order of 5-100Kohms so it's basically only voltage changes that are relevant. Speaker cables are a different thing. When powering speakers current is the major factor (except for electrostatic loudspeakers).
Maxwells equations are of course still relevant in IC's but I must say that some people do make some very uneducated scientific remarks in this discussion.
There are basically the following factors: 1. Voltage 2. Current 3. Resistance 4. Capacitance 5. Inductance 6. Impurities in the material 7. Self induction
Factors that are all statistically the same for the whole length of a cable so where does inherent directionality fit in?
I'm not saying that inherent directionality does not exist but until someone presents a double blind test along the lines of the test suggested above I'm very sceptical about it's existence since it does not make any sense at all theoretically. Even if you turn the cable around the strands are still twisted the same way and every other factor also remains the same.
Could it be that the extrusion process would impart an inherit direction? Not very likely since atoms are 100% symmetrical and identical and all impurities in the material are distributed completely at random. The whole concept of inherent directionality in cables just does not make any sense to me as a scientist and if it really does exist it must be possible to scientifically explain the reasons for it.
Can someone please do THAT? Not just present a lot of hocus-pocus statements that have no scientific relevance at all...
Current in the wire is a flow of electric charge. Wire creates magnetic field but transports charges and not the energy. Energy is transferred thru magnetic field from the source to the load. The load has some voltage drop in it, hence electric field. Together with magnetic field, this brings the energy in. Same way, the source generates voltage and, together with magnetic field, this brings the energy out. Direction of electromagnetic energy flow is determined by the Poynting vector, E × H, and depends on both voltage polarity (through E) and current direction (through H). As I understand it, even in DC circuit energy flows from source to load thru the space in direction of Poynting Vector.
sorry to say, Al, but I disagree with just about everything you just posted. oh, well...c'est la vie. specifically, as i just got through saying, the induced magnetic field is stationary whereas the electromagnetic field, you know, the thing comprised of photons, is light speed. atmasphere is mixed up and if you wish to defend him it's no skin off my nose.
Geoffkait 12-5-2016 Current traveling down the wire generates a *magnetic field" - that’s
the *induced magnetic field* and has absolutely nothing to do with
either an em field or the *electromagnetic wave* that is the audio
signal. The induced magnetic field is stationary, obeys the right hand
rule, whereas the electromagnetic wave (audio signal) travels at near
light speed, as I’ve described.
Geoff, I believe this is not correct. It would be more correct for DC, but as you'll realize AC (including audio signals) is continuously changing in both amplitude and polarity. And the magnetic field described by the right hand rule will therefore be continuously changing in both magnitude and direction.
Also, in the context of a signal propagating along a cable I believe it is incorrect to distinguish between an "induced magnetic field" (stationary or otherwise) and the "electromagnetic wave that is the audio signal." There is simply a magnetic field and an electric field. These two fields are what propagate at near light speed.
That said, much of the discussion of these matters, while perhaps of academic interest to a few, IMO has little if any practical relevance.
Regards, -- Al
P.S: My thanks are extended to Marqmike for his gracious if perhaps somewhat premature comment :-)
mihorn said: I wrote that here to show it can be tested and see the truth while you are guessing negatively.
Please show me one post of mine where I said fuses could not be directional. I do not have any opinion on fuse directionality, one way or the other. I have never personally experimented with fuses. Until proven otherwise I take others at their word they hear differences. As for bypassing the safety fuse in audio equipment I personally would never do that. Even if the piece of equipment sounded better. I have seen the power of electricity several times in my life time. Never fear it, but you best respect it!
As for wire directionality, I have experimented and have found solid core wire is directional. Especially solid core silver wire. Why is it directional? Who really cares! Lots of theory out there. I just get bent out of shape when someone says the signal is AC and flows back and forth so how could wire possibly be directional.
“There it was, right in front of me in black and white! The current does not flow around a loop setting up a magnetic field as I had, along with countless other engineers, been taught in high school and university. It is the other way round. The electric current is but an artifact of a more fundamental entity.”
to which atmasphere replied,
"You can work that either way you want to- put the em field somehow in place and the current will flow in the wire, or put the current through the wire and the em field will be generated. Either way its a red herring and has nothing to do with directionality nor suggests a means for directionality."
Sorry to report you’re still confused. Current traveling down the wire generates a *magnetic field" - that’s the *induced magnetic field* and has absolutely nothing to do with either an em field or the *electromagnetic wave* that is the audio signal. The induced magnetic field is stationary, obeys the right hand rule, whereas the electromagnetic wave (audio signal) travels at near light speed, as I’ve described.
I have copper rods instead of fuses in my few components. Copper rods in the correct direction always sound better. I am an audiophile, not an electrical engineer.
What protection do you have in the event of an overload or ground fault event if the equipment is not fused?
Either way its a red herring and has nothing to do with directionality nor suggests a means for directionality.
I never said it did. I said AC current does not flow in a circuit. AC does not flow back and forth in a circuit.
“The usually accepted view that the conductor current produces the magnetic field surrounding it must be displaced by the more appropriate one that the electromagnetic field surrounding the conductor produces, through a small drain on the energy supply, the current in the conductor. Although the value of the latter may be used in computing the transmitted energy, one should clearly recognize that physically this current produces only a loss and in no way has a direct part in the phenomenon of power transmission.”
“There it was, right in front of me in black and white! The current
does not flow around a loop setting up a magnetic field as I had, along
with countless other engineers, been taught in high school and
university. It is the other way round. The electric current is but an
artifact of a more fundamental entity.”
You can work that either way you want to- put the em field somehow in place and the current will flow in the wire, or put the current through the wire and the em field will be generated. Either way its a red herring and has nothing to do with directionality nor suggests a means for directionality.
geoffkait:My post relates to the proposition that the electromagnetic wave that is the audio signal **in** copper wire or any conductor is comprised of photons, as are all electromagnetic waves.
"For a given value of ’in’ I suppose increases or decreases the number of words in your mouth, apparently.
That energy cannot exist without the current flow. You are correct in that electromagnetism is always there but it can’t exist without current! This link might help sort things out for you:
Quote from Link below:
"Those of you who feel that many of the ideas are not mainstream should find a copy of “Standard Handbook for Electrical Engineers” by Donald G. Fink and H. Wayne Beaty.…there is a section entitled, “Electromagnetic Wave Propagation Phenomena.”
“The usually accepted view that the conductor current produces the magnetic field surrounding it must be displaced by the more appropriate one that the electromagnetic field surrounding the conductor produces, through a small drain on the energy supply, the current in the conductor. Although the value of the latter may be used in computing the transmitted energy, one should clearly recognize that physically this current produces only a loss and in no way has a direct part in the phenomenon of power transmission.”
“There it was, right in front of me in black and white! The current does not flow around a loop setting up a magnetic field as I had, along with countless other engineers, been taught in high school and university. It is the other way round. The electric current is but an artifact of a more fundamental entity.” http://www.prosoundtraining.com/site/synaudcon-library/understanding-electricity-means-understanding...
My post relates to the proposition that the electromagnetic wave that is
the audio signal **in** copper wire or any conductor is comprised of
photons, as are all electromagnetic waves.
For a given value of 'in' I suppose increases or decreases the number of words in your mouth, apparently.
12-05-2016 4:01pm Photons. Hmm. Maybe that was the mail order NASA school...
Actually, photons conducting in a wire is about as likely as you working at NASA which is to say neither happened.
No offense to you personally but you’re confused. I’m not saying that photons conduct at all. So don't put words in my mouth. If you can’t keep up with the conversation maybe you should consider sitting this one out.
geoffkait: Since the satellite delay is known to be 240 ms that means the velocity of the audio signal (voice) through free space is 186,000 miles per second. The speed of light. Now what is the only thing that can travel at the speed of light in free space?
to which atmasphere replied, "Electrons flow back and forth in a wire. Its useful to examine the way this occurs by using the model of ball bearings in a hose. When you push one ball bearing into one end, instantaneously one leaves the hose at the other end. Electrons work the same way as they are easily exchanged in their respective orbits of adjacent atoms (in a material we call a ’conductor’).
Obviously you didn’t learn this when going to the two week NASA school."
Huh?! I hate to judge before all the facts are in but it appears my post went over your head. My post relates to the proposition that the electromagnetic wave that is the audio signal in copper wire or any conductor is comprised of photons, as are all electromagnetic waves. Besides, Electromagnetic waves in free space do not require electrons. How could they? it’s a vacuum. Hel-loo! BTW I was senior mathematician at NASA when you were still wearing bell bottoms.
AC current is not flowing through the fuse. Energy is, in the form of an electromagnetic wave.
That energy cannot exist without the current flow. You are correct in that electromagnetism is always there but it can’t exist without current! This link might help sort things out for you:
Since the satellite delay is known to be 240 ms that means the velocity of the audio signal (voice) through free space is 186,000 miles per second. The speed of light. Now what is the only thing that can travel at the speed of light in free space?
Electrons flow back and forth in a wire. Its useful to examine the way this occurs by using the model of ball bearings in a hose. When you push one ball bearing into one end, instantaneously one leaves the hose at the other end. Electrons work the same way as they are easily exchanged in their respective orbits of adjacent atoms (in a material we call a ’conductor’).
Obviously you didn’t learn this when going to the two week NASA school.
Ralph doesn’t believe in the wire diretionality[sic]. All wire directions in his set up are mixed up. A fuse direction is not significant in an improper set up. Also, the reason he doesn’t believe wire directionality is because he has never heard the difference. I can’t say why he hasn’t heard the difference in his long career in an audio industry.
You are conflating two different issues. First, I don’t go by belief but actual knowledge and there is a difference between the two. Try believing that a bullet fired from a gun pointed at you can’t hurt you and see where that gets you. More to the point: copper crystals in a wire have an alignment. But this alignment cannot affect whether the wire actually conducts differently in one direction as opposed to another on a practical basis. You might be able to measure the diode effect over a very long stretch of wire but in the shorter wires used in actual audio applications its moot and does not affect even the tiny signals emerging from a low output moving coil cartridge (which BTW are relatively high current while being low voltage) with the distances involved in audio applications.
If we approach this from an electro-magnetism point of view we find the that the conclusion is the same.
The funny thing here is that a lot of this stuff are the things that they teach you first when you go to engineering classes, not the last!
But I don’t doubt that when people turn cable around they hear a difference!! There can be a number of things influencing that and until you’ve ruled them out you can’t point at atomic structure as the cause. The method of shielding is going to be a bigger effect, and perhaps as much effect might come from how happy the connectors are themselves as they are seated in each other! We’ve found plenty of machining differences in connectors that came from the same batch- differences not only in the dimensions but also in the quality and thickness of the plating! So just like the fuses, if you put enough current through a cable you can measure the voltage drop at the connectors, and by rotating the RCA connections you can determine the best connection and when you get that, it sounds better.
Connectors play a pretty big role. I’ve heard bad connectors make or break the sound of a component, for example when an adapter connector is used to go from balanced to single-ended. Usually its sounds better to have the proper connectors on the cable to start with.
The problem is there really isn’t a good way to test this in most audiophile’s systems. We did it because we got tired of hearing cables sound different when they were exactly the same cable that we had just been using with the same equipment- why did they sometimes sound better when reseated and other times sound worse??
I found it **really** irritating that we could easily hear differences in power cables, especially when the power cable manufactures often came up with explanations for this that were obviously bogus! So I took a Digital Voltmeter and simply measured the voltage drop from one end of the cable to the other and Voila! - the difference was revealed and stupidly easy to measure.
So instead of making up bizarre stories about quantum, crystals, smoking mirrors and the like, instead maybe its a good idea to ***AT LEAST TRY*** to see if you can sort out a method of correlating a measurement against what you can also hear. Usually you can if you sit down and think about it.
FWIW, for all the obvious BS proposed on this thread, I don’t find it nearly as upsetting and disappointing as when you find an obvious "objectivist’ that proclaims something like there ’can’t be any effect from a power cord’ and then can’t be bothered to at least back up his statements with some sort of measurements!
So in closing just to be clear, here at Atma-Sphere:
We do hear differences in interconnect cable directions. We can measure why this is so easily enough. With RCAs one of the biggest effects are rotation of the connectors so they seat properly and the way the cable is shielded.
We do hear differences in fuse direction and can measure why this is so (and have shown that simply rotating the fuse in the holder can have the same effect). Fuses aren’t directional.
We hear differences in power cables and can measure why this is so, just by measuring the AC voltage drop across the cable.
In the above cases we can do this with a standard 3 1/2 digit DVM. Its not hard. ***You just have to do it!!***
None of this is rocket science and none of it has anything to do with quantum. It just takes a bit of thinking about how to figure out how to do the measurement. I’m not saying that we know how to do all measurements of things that we are able to hear that don’t seem to be in the specs, but the things I just listed we can.
The fuse is a weakest link. In a garden hose, only narrowest part of hose counts to pass the max water. A weakest link is very sensitive. What has happened in the weakest link is amplified huge later. A sound system is only as good as its weakest link.
You are still thinking current flows through the fuse. It does not. You cannot use the garden hose analogy when describing what goes on with the workings of a fuse. Weakest link? Yes, only because if more energy passes through the fuse than it is designed to handle it will melt the link and open the circuit. Does the fuse restrict/limit the amount of energy needed for the piece of equipment to operate as designed? Good question..... My guess is no.
Thanks posters. For the most part this is a very nice civil, well mannered discussion that everyone can share some sincere views without attacking. It makes it informative and pleasant at the same time. For me anyway. Thanks to you good posters. If this whole site could just stay that way.
The issues of fuse directionality and cable directionality involve numerous factors that are different, and discussions of the two issues should not be commingled IMO. Some of those differences are:
1)A fuse has just one conductor, while an audio cable has two or more.
2)The lengths that are involved are vastly different. Most cable parameters, and arguably most cable effects, are proportional to length.
3)An audio cable conducts an audio signal. In the majority of applications a fuse does not.
4)The nature of the contact surfaces that are involved in the two cases is very different.
5)If all wires are directional to a degree that is potentially audible it would seem expectable that the directional effects of a fuse wire would be swamped by the directional effects of the vastly longer associated wiring. In the case of a mains fuse that would include the wiring in the power transformer, the AC wiring within the component, the power cord, and arguably even the AC wiring inside and outside of the house.
6)Regarding empirical evidence that has been asked for in some of the posts above, in recent fuse-related threads Ralph (Atmasphere) has cited experiments he has performed which have determined that the same effects resulting from changing the direction of a fuse can be accomplished by rotating the fuse in its holder. And probably even more effectively. In both cases dimensional imperfections in the fuse and its holder result in differences in contact resistance, and consequently voltage drop is measurably and audibly affected.
FWIW my comments on fuse directionality have been provided in various recent fuse-related threads. See for example the first of my posts dated 10-28-2016 near the middle of this page.
My post was in response to this part of your post;
That includes fuses in > 30~40 years old vintage gears. Switching the direction of the fuse, the electrical current takes longer time (and subtle) to hear the effect because many active parts have to react to the change of new current (unlike audio signal). In my experience, it usually took 1~10 minutes to hear.
AC current is not flowing through the fuse. Energy is, in the form of an electromagnetic wave.
I think if you guys that have experimented with fuse direction, and can hear a difference, it is hard to justify if one believes AC current flows back and forth though the fuse. If that was the case then the fuse would have to act as a diode in one direction to hear a difference. What other reasoning can you use?
If you use the theory, energy travels through the fuse in the form of an electromagnetic wave from the source to the load, then the next question is how could reversing the fuse make a difference?
Here is what herman posted again:
If you say the AC fuse blew because there was too much current flowing
through it everybody nods in agreement even though that isn’t true. If you
say the wire in the fuse melted because it got too hot after absorbing
energy from the electromagnetic wave people look at you like you are
insane and want to argue that vibrating electrons constitute current flow.
Very interesting question. As a full service authorized STEALTH Audio Cables dealer, I would like to refer you to the tech notes on the STEALTH Audio Cables web site named "cable directionality". You will learn that many cables show arrows of direction even though 99% of cables out there are not truly directional making a cable direction ambiguous, if you will. More here, scroll down to the second of the bottom topic:
George I don’t know why you’re getting your panties all bunched up. Machina Dynamica's been numero uno here for like forever. Better take two placebos and see me in the morning.
Your post, Just look at his website, then you’ll understand, why he can’t "see the forest through the trees." http://www.machinadynamica.com/index.html And he wants money for some of these bizzare things has corrupted the Agon page 2 of this thread making the page difficult to read.
Please delete the post and re post the post without the last website link, or find another to post in its’ place.
Thank you.
Done, removed, look at that, now the page has returned to a normal view.
Wow!!! he has other ways of doing voodoo as well, it’s like his "buyers cart" link laid a virus into the page.
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