I am 6' 4" and 215 with a shaved bald head that makes me look a little reptilian. That may cause very few to back down!
The Lightspeed is indeed one of the very best buys in all of audio. In my current set up I can find very little fault and love the unit. In fact I liked it so much I decided to try and make it work even better in my rig.
I removed the LSA from its chassis and inserted the board directly into my Yamamoto dac. Yes, the output of the dac feeds the LSA board directly using very high quality silver/gold wire. I bypassed two sets of RCAs and an IC this way. I then mounted the volume control to the front of the dac.
The sound is nothing short of outstanding and pure. The dac is solid state and stays at room temp at all times so the LSA components are always happy.
So I now have a wonderful Yamamoto dac with built in LS Attenuator. |
Your right Swampwalker.
My aim was originally trying to get the OP of this thread to do, was to go direct with his PS Audio DSD into his amps, with no any mention from me of my own product.
Others seem to like to bring it up as a target. Being 6'2" 240lb I don't usually back down from much, but to save the OP's thread I will cease any further retaliation.
Cheers George
|
George- It's call hyperbole:
hy·per·bo·le
hīˈpərbəlē/
noun
noun: hyperbole; plural noun: hyperboles
exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally. |
Great detective work George! You must have much free time on your hands down under. I'm too busy to comb through your replies, though I'm sure they are all business related.
Obviously, either my moniker was highjacked, or I was high at the time. The time frame is what throws me, I would have guessed that all of my passive experiences were well before 2005. Too many toys, not enough time nor money.
So now you have Bill backed into a corner. He either has to come out and say your LSA is awesome, or you can come out and say "I told you so".
It's a win-win for you. Well played George. |
Bill (Grannyring)
Your credibility and honesty are well recognized on audiogon. Common sense dictacts that some will prefer passive and others active line stages, it just depends. I don't understand the put down comments for those who don't find the Lightspeed(or passive/direct source) right for them after an audition in their system. It comes across as petty.
Charles, |
My comments are well thought out, honest, and my experience. It does not line up exactly with yours so I am somehow flawed as a poster according to you. I don't know why I take your bait? Perhaps I am hopeful of a nicer, more reasoned side of you.
For those interested, the LSA is very, very good with my DHT 845 amp. I am liking it more than ever with this amp and my current speakers. My past experience with the LSA has always been positive and my detailed posts reflect that fact on the LSA thread. But, currently it is exceeding my expectations and the second best "preamp" I have had in my system. More to come with further listening and time. |
12-21-05: Jmcgrogan2
I've moved on to the newest fad, passive amplification. It's great!! There's no amplifier like no amplifier!!
All you that thought passive line stages were the end of the road are wrong, just wait until you add passive amplification to the loop. No more power cords needed....period!
Wahoo!!! And as for your little dig. BTW: Wahoo!!!! Passive amplification??? Now that's an oxymoron, so was your above post. Cheers George |
Facts are there to see, members just need to look at Bills (Grannyring) statements here and over at the Lightspeed forum, it's not hard see what going on.
I'll leave it at that.
Cheers George
|
04-03-15: Georgelofi
No negativity or accusations of conspiracy.
Just presenting a portion of written facts/quotes.
It certainly doesn't appear that way George. It seems as if there is a LOT of negativity and accusations. That is your second post trying to proactively smear Bill's (Grannyring) testimony. What's the matter George, not much confidence in your product? Maybe you are not totally sold on passives yourself??? LOL!! Maybe folks should dig through your post history, and see how much love you give to active preamps, just to see if your opinion is fair and impartial. ;^) |
I really appreciate your input on this Grannyring because you give it a better chance than most reviewers would and are sincere about your findings. We all benefit from it no matter how it has come about. It will be interesting to see if it kicks it up a notch or two by some mods. I would definitlky do that. Enjoy the journey. Thanks for sharing Grannyring. |
No negativity or accusations of conspiracy.
Just presenting a portion of written facts/quotes.
Cheers George
|
Here is that comment from five years ago in the full context.
George, you totally tried to mislead others and seem to want to smear me in some way. The total context is both reasoned an open minded to your design. Quite the opposite of what you are trying to portray. Someday you will hopefully see I am an honest and curious Aphile with no conspiracy plan against your or any passive.
06-14-10: Grannyring
Like your input George. I would love to try your preamp in my system and compare to my tube preamp. I can't believe I even said this as I am usually 100% against passives based on my experience with these in the past. It's just that several highly respected Agoners seem to think your $450 unit is the real deal giant killer. I have a giant in my opinion : |
Yes indeed, that comment was based on experience to that date. That is reasonable? Right? Experience changes opinions. We are all in a state of change if we are open to new experiences. Going back in time for a quote is a waste of time George. I really do not understand your negative ways.
Anyway, thus far your design is making me rethink what is possible with a passive. I will post my honest opinion regardless of how petty you are behaving. |
I'll just show this from another thread.
Quote Grannyring:
"I am usually 100% against passives "
Cheers George
|
John, I owned Merlin VSM speakers three times! All used. They had a certain sound that was appealing and so darn close to my dream speaker. In the end they just lacked the weight/body of music I hear live and on other great systems. The LSA has left me with the exact same past experience, so close to audio bliss but........the weight.......the body.....? Will this time be different with higher efficiency speakers, DHT amp and the Yamamoto Dac? We will see. I have it in my home to sell so why not try! |
George,
Grannyring has given logical explanations for the 4th attempt using your Lightspeed. He feels it's a very good product(and has say so numerous times0.
He feels it's a very good value.
He likes the simpler is better concept in theory.
His system make up and current components are different and perhaps more favorable this time.
He's opened minded.
I wouldn't say this sounds like someone "obsessed" with the TRL Dude. Rather with direct comparison in his system the Dude provided superior sound quality. Seems like he's been quite fair with your Lightspeed. He has more patience than me.
Charles, |
Yeah, I did not buy the unit three of the times. This one is a friends that wants me to sell it for him. I sell gear for friends often as witnessed by my prolific feedback:) Anytime I read about dozens of folks saying a $500 passive toasted their $5,000-$20,000 active it gets my attention. Again, I have different gear that seems best matched to achieve the magic so many write about.
I may build a battery supply for it, upgrade the RCA's, dampen the chassis and use better hook up wire. Again, it is behaving nicely thus far and may indeed be worthy of a few simple upgrades. |
I've bought the same speaker cables and integrated amp 3 times now. I haven't reached 4 yet, but maybe one day. ;^)
Of course I bought them all used. |
I just can't fathom why some one would buy at different time 4 x Lightspeed Attenuators.
A second one I can understand, thinking, "maybe I made a mistake by selling the first one", but now a 4th one??
It's beyond me, but hey keep buying them as it keeps me in beer money.
Cheers George
|
George, I want your device to do well and that is why I try it yet one more time on a different assortment of gear. My open minded ways is always curious and willing to experiment. I love great values in audio and have learned a great deal over the past few years on building and modifying gear |
I have a bad back so thus far LSA is up by one! |
I will report back on what is. I am an open minded Aphile who is NOT tied to any one piece of gear. Goodness, Agon folks should know this by now.
The LSA is playing now and works well in my current set up. |
So let us assume that I purchase this preamplifier. What happens to the power amplifier, sources and speaker cables? What about power cords? They also seem to have some degree of effect due to cable changes. At least in my system, the speaker cables made a huge positive difference. Or is my system completely wrong in revealing changes because of cable switching? Your system is fine- being able to hear the effects of cables is what comes with resolution. The only thing is, interconnects are the one type of cable that should never be able to impose an artifact- because we figured out how to stop that a good 60 years ago! However, speaker cables and power cords are a different matter entirely. They impose (measurable) artifacts too and the physics about why are pretty straightforward although I am not sure if they are germane to this thread. |
|
03-31-15: Georgelofi
Doubt it will be a favourable outcome, "once again". this will be the 4th time, why keep trying???
Knowing Grannyring's obsession with the TRL Dude. Just as I doubt you would ever have a favorable outcome when comparing a active to a passive George. Many times folks hear what they want to hear, on both sides of the fence. |
03-31-15: Marqmike
Thanks Grannyring for the comments. I am looking forward to hear how the LSA works for you this time Doubt it will be a favourable outcome, "once again". this will be the 4th time, why keep trying??? Knowing Grannyring's obsession with the TRL Dude. Cheers George |
Thanks Grannyring for the comments. I am looking forward to hear how the LSA works for you this time. |
Atmasphere,
I did look up that your firm manufacture tube preamps that do not require expensive cables or do not react to cable changes. Unfortunately I am not a tube guy. But lets not go there.
So let us assume that I purchase this preamplifier. What happens to the power amplifier, sources and speaker cables? What about power cords? They also seem to have some degree of effect due to cable changes. At least in my system, the speaker cables made a huge positive difference. Or is my system completely wrong in revealing changes because of cable switching? |
Its good advice to take the cables out of the "how things sound " equation as Atmasphere recommends. Its one less thing to have to worry about in getting everything to play optimally together. |
I agree that I have not auditioned all the cables that are available. Will the manufacturer make a better cable next year - chances are most likely yes. Isn't advancement in technology supposed to do that? Nordost, Siltech, Shunyata, etc, all come up with new improved cables over a period of some years. Folks have done A-B comparison with the new-old and preferred one of the other. Does it mean that these cables are wrong?
There are tons of users on this forum who use very highly regarded active preamps (probably 3X-10X the cost of my entire system), and have experienced a better sound when their cables were upgraded. Does it mean that all these highly regarded active preamps also have not been designed properly? So which one would you say is wrong: cables or active preamp? I understand your consternation! It took me a while to get my head around this issue, but to your first question- does this mean that these cables are wrong the simple answer is 'yes'. What if you had a setup where the cable made no difference in your system and an inexpensive cable sounded just as good a really expensive cable- which is to say that they both played so well it was as if they were simply a direct line to the music? Would that be of interest? This is what I am talking about when I talk about eliminating interconnect cable artifact. Now if you prefer to throw as much money as you can afford at the cables to get better sound- by all means be my guest. That is one approach and it is the one most commonly used by the 'tons of users on this forum' to which you refer. But if you want to get off of the interconnect cable merry go round and not have to worry about cables ever again in your whole life then go back and re-read my posts on this thread. That system to allow that has been around for about 60 years and it works really well. |
An active pre-amp plays a big part in how a system sounds. It serves as an analog signal processor in a sense in that how all sources used actually sound are affected.
So if you like the sound you gotta give the pre-amp some credit for that.
The option is to take it out and see how each source sounds and perhaps then tweak with that to get the sound you like again.
Either way can work well. If you like teh sound out of teh active pre-amp you have, then be grateful to it for that. It's far from "useless". Unless you try something different that works out even better. Then you might consider putting it out to pasture but still give it its due accolades for a job well done. |
I'm using my PS Audio Direct Steam with a BSG QOL unit (awesome) into a Pass Labs X350.5 Amp.
The BSG QOL unit provides added gain and so much more texture than when I used my former Pass Labs Preamp.
I use the PS Audio Direct Stream volume, and it usually runs between 60 and 65. With the PS Audio High filter engaged, the volume on the PS can run in the high 90's.
However, I prefer to run it without the filter with the volume in the 60's.
The BSG QOL also provides added analog inputs and outputs.
One of the inputs is used for my Denon Home theater pass through in which the Denon controls the volume while playing Blu Rays from my Oppo.
The BSG QOL also has dual analog outputs in which I run my dual JL F113 Subs. |
Here is the graph of a 10kohm passive output impedance. On the left (vertical axis) is it's output impedance, for the given volume resistance (horizontal axis). As you can see at half volume rotation it is at the worst 2.5kohm output impedance, either side it's output impedance is lower. http://i.stack.imgur.com/cVUCc.png Cheers George |
Just to give an example,
A 10kohm passive preamp which all solid state sources can drive, has a worst case 2.5kohm output impedance.
In the worst case of 2.5kohm, this passive preamp driving reasonable quality interconnects of 100pf per foot at 2mts long will give a high frequency roll off at -3db @ 106khz!!!
And with just one meter interconnects it is -3db @ 212khz!!!
And this is interconnects of 100pf, if you get good quality ones that are 50pf per foot, the HF roll off point off doubles again
To -3db @ 212khz for 2mts!!
And -3db @ 424khz for 1mt!!
As you can see only dogs and bats can hear this kind of HF filtering.
Cheers George
|
"Does it mean that all these highly regarded active preamps also have not been designed properly? So which one would you say is wrong: cables or active preamp?
Milpai (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
Neither is wrong. Audio components are usually designed with the understanding that they will be used in a wide variety of systems. Its impossible for any designer to make products that will be optimal in all systems. It just can't happen. That's why there's nothing wrong with the cables or the preamp. They just can't work for everyone in every situation. |
Just to add to the above, when these high capacitance interconnects (>200pf per foot) are used, they can cause a high frequency filter, not only with passives but also with the many tube preamps.
This is another reason they have no place in hi-end audio. Thank god there are not too many of them around.
Cheers George
|
Scare tactics of the capacitance of interconnects with passive preamps are off the mark. As most good interconnect cables are less than <100pf (picofarad) per foot. And at 1-2mts are fine.
Only when you get into cheap nasty cables do these scare tactics come into play, when they have >200pf per foot or higher, and those types of cables have no right in hi-end audio.
Cheers George
|
I agree that I have not auditioned all the cables that are available. Will the manufacturer make a better cable next year - chances are most likely yes. Isn't advancement in technology supposed to do that? Nordost, Siltech, Shunyata, etc, all come up with new improved cables over a period of some years. Folks have done A-B comparison with the new-old and preferred one of the other. Does it mean that these cables are wrong?
There are tons of users on this forum who use very highly regarded active preamps (probably 3X-10X the cost of my entire system), and have experienced a better sound when their cables were upgraded. Does it mean that all these highly regarded active preamps also have not been designed properly? So which one would you say is wrong: cables or active preamp? |
I think you were generalizing that Actives were better than passives. I do not think I attacked your statement in any way. I was suggesting that we cannot make generalized statements. Isn't TVC a passive component? No worries- but apparently what you were thinking is not exactly what I was saying since I was careful to not generalize. If you review my posts you will see that I make a point of also saying that not all active line sections are created equal. The phrase I like to use goes like this: 'It is a statement of how poor many line stages are that passive volume controls can beat them'. So I am always careful to use the phrase 'properly designed'. So far this thread has really been about active preamps vs PVCs (Passive Volume Controls). TVCs (Transformer Volume Controls) should not be considered in the same realm as PVCs. The math regarding how they function is quite different. TVCs involve a transformer or autoformer with taps. They have a different set of issues- for example if improperly loaded the device will not express the turns ratio correctly and so bandwidth will not be flat (inter-winding capacitance can start playing a role). This means that the designer has to provide the proper loading for each step in the setup, taking into account that the amplifier (which might have an input impedance anywhere from 10K to 100K or more) is part of that load. A lot of TVC designers don't take all that into account. So some of them are easily beaten by active line stages because the active unit is more tonally neutral). OTOH, there are TVCs that have all the design parameters sorted out and they can have impressive performance if used correctly. If a TVC provides gain (and sometimes even if it does not) and depending on the type of amplifier used, the interconnect cable may well play a serious role in the results! Cables have capacitance and TVCs are all about inductance- the two together can result in a high frequency resonance that varies with the control setting. If you can hear big differences between interconnect cables, what you can safely conclude is that the 'good' cable you have now and the one that didn't make it are both wrong. The why of it is simple- did you audition all the cables out there? Will the manufacturer of the cable you settled for make a better one next year? A properly designed active preamp eliminates this issue- the cable plays a far less of a role in the tonality and resolution of the system. A good active will force the cable to do its job- to pass the signal without editorial. I don't see PVCs or TVCs really doing that. |
"03-27-15: Milpai
Zd542, don't feel offended just because you have not listed your system here.
But I found this statement funny :-)
Most of the stuff I recommend, I don't even own. "
No one likes a good laugh better than me. No offence at all. Just the opposite actually.
"Are you telling me that you are recommending stuff on a whim? We were not talking of putting together a system for the OP."
No. Not everyone has the same taste as I do. Sometimes what an OP will ask for is clearly not to my personal taste. It would be selfish of me to recommend only things I like, knowing full well that its not the best advice. For example, I don't like Magnepan and B&W speakers, but I would never think of talking someone out of them if that's what will make them happy. |
Hi Bill,
Just off the UPS truck, yes it will open up substantially, just give it time. It is a well balanced blend of transparency and very organic character . Keep me posted. It became even better with the Duelund CAST capacitors. |
My system has new passive friendly components that are different then before, thus I will try the LSA again!
Charles, I just hooked up the Yamamoto for the first time today and I will wait to give my full impressions. The first hour it was pretty dark and closed in and muddy in the bass. I think it needed to settle into my system. My CEC transport is known to be dark sounding.
After being on 4 hours things are getting better. The highs are coming in and the sound is opening up. Please understand both the Yami and CEC were fresh off the UPS truck!
The Yamamoto is easy on my ears and pleasing to listen to. Not at all harsh or bright with not a hint of glare. All very good stuff! |
Zd542, don't feel offended just because you have not listed your system here. But I found this statement funny :-) Most of the stuff I recommend, I don't even own. Are you telling me that you are recommending stuff on a whim? We were not talking of putting together a system for the OP. It is the OP's responsibility. We can only recommend or only advise based on our listening or personal experiences. Like you said, it is only up to the person to validate and then make a purchase - especially when it is recommended by folks who don't even own the components :-)) But listing your components at least gives the recommend-ee an idea of what the recommend-er really likes and then think if his/her own listening habits match with the recommend-er. I would never recommend a component which I do not have experience with. And things that I have auditioned, I would "only suggest" and mention that I have just auditioned. |
Zd542,
While I agree that seeing a listing of others' megabuck systems doesn't necessarily make them better qualified to make recommendations, I do think seeing system setups can be very helpful in evaluating poster's comments.
Seeing systems, the way they are set up and the rooms they are in can definitely help us all when reading various comments. I've seen systems set up in obviously bright non treated rooms on non carpeted ceramic or wooden floors with rear ported speakers backed up against a wall or sliding glass door and thought "note to self, take anything this guy says with a grain of salt" because I'll know withy a doubt that what he's hearing in a setup like that will have zero correlation to what I'll get in my room.
Wouldn't you agree that what sounds great in a room like that might not sound good in a treated deader room with more open speaker placement? |
"I feel folks who come here for sincere audio discussions should post their system so that the other party can understand why the poster is so exited about his/her system. I think we all have gone through a certain phase of changes/upgrades, to arrive at what we like. So why not post your equipment here for others to see and then decide why the poster is exited about what he/she is recommending.
Milpai (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
Listing ones system, in no way, better qualifies the advice they give. How could it? How do you know the system someone lists is a completed project. They could be currently going through the mistake phase. Or any other phase, for that matter. Most of the stuff I recommend, I don't even own.
I firmly believe that to be successful in putting a system together, you need to take responsibility for your own actions. If you're fool enough to take a review or recommendation without personal verification before the purchase, you've got no one but yourself to blame. Even though we sit and listen to music, audio is a very hands on hobby. If you want good sound, you have to go out and get it for yourself. You can't just let someone tell you what to buy and expect to be happy. Its like asking a life guard to tell you how to swim, and then go jump in a lake. |
Hi Bill, well, you have had the Light speed on three separate occasions and each time you felt your active provided better sound. I honestly don't see how you expect the difference the fourth time around to change but we will see. You will do the comparisons again but in my opinion the Yamamoto DAC
will sound better with your active line stage,it will be more musically complete and realistic sounding. As you know Bill, I have used this DAC for the past four years and it is marvelous. It is really terrific in connection with my active line stage. Tonality and harmonically sorted out with excellent dynamics and musical flow and pace. It should mate beautifully with your custom Dude preamp. I look forward to your listening impressions.
Charles |
Atmasphere,
I think you were generalizing that Actives were better than passives. I do not think I attacked your statement in any way. I was suggesting that we cannot make generalized statements. Isn't TVC a passive component?
Grannyring,
It is not worthwhile to eat even a small coating. We are not trying to win anything here. I want to stress the importance of system matching. You may try LSA for the 4th time in your system. But if that did not work for the previous 3 times, what makes you think it will work the 4th time? Also, I suggest you try a very high quality TVC like Music First or Bespoke. You seem to have some expensive gear, so I am suggesting you these expensive TVCs. I would have suggested Promitheus Signature TVC - but I have my reservations against delivery times and customer service. The TVC I have is excellent component. I have compared it with a Line stage that costs $4500 and had to return that $4.5K component back.
Hope you have a great shootout and an enjoyable one at that! |
Marqmike, I own your speakers in a second system for my wife. Very musical speakers. Love the amp you put on them also. Good match. Your system is well matched and looks to be very musical. Well done.
Interesting comments on your experience with the LSA. It certainly sounds good in the right system. I agree with all you said, but wonder how prudent it is to build a system around a passive preamp. I know you did not suggest we do that, but I guess I don't think a passive is that hard to use or work into a system. Most digital front ends have plenty of output and many amps are of sufficient input sensitivity and impedance. Can it be the LSA is pure Magic in 1% of all system combinations:). No. I do t think that is the case. I think it works in many more systems than that. |
Grannyring that is an interesting thing to do. To keep trying the LSA. I appreciate your enthusiasm and earnest work to get good sound. That has been documented on Agon for all to see. And that has benefitted me and I am sure others. Thanks. And by looking, your system is quite a bit more expensive than mine. So it maybe more refined. You and I like Van the Man and I get him in all his glory through my system I feel.
Now I think the LSA needs to have a system built around it and not just dropped in to an optimized sytem for another pre amp if all the small things matter. I think that the LSA without that sounds ok. Doesn't seem to do anything real error prone. But doesn't have the more real feel of what I associate with real instuments in real space. I have no real good idea but I think that feel is in the lower mid range to the upper bass part of the spectrum and when that is excentuated I think that contributes to the feel of the the music along with the hearing it. And when that happens in a good balance it becomes more appealing to listen to. But just my thought. It doesn't matter because we know when we get it to sound like each one likes it to sound. |
I do have the LS attenuator coming for a 4th time and I will try it yet again!
I have a Yamamoto DAC with an output of 3.1volts, three different amps ranging from PP tube, DHT SET tube, and SS monoblocks. Input impedances range from 80kohms to 200K ohms. Amp input sensitivity range from 350mv to 1 volt .My speakers are 92 db effecient and an easy 8 ohms to drive never going below 6 ohms. Simple two way speaker with very few crossover parts.
I will bring a host of ears over for a listen. I am prepared to eat a part of the active pre if not better to all. Perhaps a small part like a resistor!
I do like the LSA as I have owned it twice and tried it three times in various passive friendly systems. Very clean sounding and does everything right. It would be my choice if I could only spend $1,000 or less on a preamp. Quite good indeed.
For all my family listeners and close by Aphiles it was not up to the the musical standard of my active. Why am I trying it a 4th time? Because I am completly astounded and confounded by all the positive press the LSA garners. It beats out $20,000 preamps and the like according to the long thread here on the Gon. I cannot wrap my mind around this as my experiences were quite conclusive three different times with different gear. Yes... all passive friendly.
I am open minded and would love to own a $500 passive that moved me like a $20,000 active. Who could possibly want to spend more just to spend more? Well, ok some would. Not me.
My music room is stocked with gear that will make this comparison fun and interesting yet one more time. |
