Klipsch Cornwall IV

My room is reasonably large and not evenly shaped. The largest part of the room is 20' wide x 30' long. I sit about 9' from the speakers. 

I do use a sub, it's a Hsu Research VTF-3--which has a 12" woofer.

I think what makes this work is that my DAC has a 2 volt output. 

Thanks. That's a pretty big space, roughly similar to mine. I found my Moth S2A3 to sound wonderful at low volume--the best of any of my amps--but it started to soften on the bottom and strain on top before I felt the room pressurize. Didn't clip, exactly, just lost a little composure and suppleness.

Is your Triode Labs the 2A3 EVO integrated? If so, perhaps the Hashimoto trannies make the difference. Looks top shelf throughout.

I must say, your report is pushing me to put my 2A3 back in for another session!

My 2A3 is an early EVO integrated model, which has James and Triode Lab P10 transformers. I have a photo in my virtual system here on Agon.

I’m also running 12AU7 in place of the 12AX7. They sound much better, even though the gain is considerably lower.

Also: I can take care of the Moth 2A3 if you're not using it ;).

Oh, it's always in use in one of my other systems, continually since 1999! :) Like yours, it is absolute dead quiet, too, even with headphones. Great little amp.

Look at the variety of amps people are using on these!  And everyone is pretty happy.  How unusual is that!
For me I love that you can drive them with virtually any amp, 2-500 Wpc.  I have a decware amp on order, 2.3 wpc.  Last night I was watching the meters on my LM210IA 300b amp, and the most I saw was a bit under 2 watts, so the decware should be ok, even with headroom considerations.
Right now they are driven from 150 wpc Luxman power and they sound fantastic.  
Pinpoint imaging, and as with everything I have tried, the speakers completely disappear.

@dbarger That's a good point about the variety of amps that can drive these things with ease. My LM 518 shouldn't have a problem at all.

So far, it's down to these or Triangle Cellos. Maybe a Rethm model?

@wrm57 Is Moth out of business?

Another happy CWIV owner here.  The dynamic swings this speaker is capable of reproducing are otherworldly.  I’m running mine with a PrimaLuna EVO 400 integrated and Manley Chinook SE phono stage and couldn’t be happier.

@simao

Moth Audio has been closed for over 15 years. Craig Uthus moved on and started Eddie Current, which makes some very nice headphone amps. I believe certain models can drive speakers as well. 

That's a good point about the variety of amps that can drive these things with ease. My LM 518 shouldn't have a problem at all.

@simao  I had a 518i a while back and it is indeed a great amp, it wasn't the best pairing with horns. I used it with Forte IIIs and a pair of Khorns. I loved many things about the sound, but it could be a little "strident" at times. Then again, the cornwall IV has a much smoother sounding horn than either of those, so you might be ok. Good luck, interested to know how this combination works out.

As for power, you will be fine. I am driving mine with 16 watts of Aric power and it is plenty.

Oz

Color me as another very happy CW IV user. Got mine about 2 months ago from Cory @ paducah home theater, referred to by @ozzy62. Got an incredible price, shipped free to my home in FL in 3 days. Delivery driver brought them right into my garage. I’m running them with my fully restored Marantz 2385. I have a brand new Technics 1200g w/ Ortofon 2M black. I also run a TEAC X-2000r R2R and the sound is just incredible. The sound seems to improve every time I turn my stereo system on. Clear, clean, powerful with a huge soundstage. Very smooth, no fatigue at all. Midrange is beautifully smooth, plenty of bottom end punch and highs are very nice and widely dispersed.

Congrats @jehowlind.

@simao , yes, as jayrossi said, Moth Audio has been closed for many years. It was a quixotic partnership (literally, out of Hollywood), ultimately unsustainable, that produced great sounding amp-art that looked retro-futuristic and fantastic, like something out of Flash Gordon. Craig has stayed available to service my amp from time to time, and modded it with an outboard power supply that really took it to another level a few years ago.

@dbarger Look at the variety of amps people are using on these!

I just ordered a Kingko KA101Pro, 12 bargain watts of EL84 push-pull goodness out of Hong Kong. Should be fun! I guess this means the Cornwalls are staying :).

I’ve always been curious about the Kingko amp!  That could be a great combo!

So when my wife turns off the small singer songwriter stuff and goes in the treadmill I sometimes cue up the electronica or Floyd. One track that comes to mind is Welcome to the Machine. Do these pressurize the room on that track? Are you guys using subs with them?

I’ll likely be in a position to demo the CW’s this coming week. 

The bass is not super deep, but I am satisfied and feel no desire to put my svs sb2000 pro into the system.  I would say it is impactful bass, but not super deep.

I have multiple sets of older modified Klipsch Heritage so unable to comment on current Cornwall but I am a fan of older CWs. In my experience, horns are initially kind of shocking, but grow on you. After a bit, other speakers tend to sound flat. I have sold many sets of speakers but my Quartets have always been in use. I assume newer Klipsch models have been improved. I run them with a Vincent hybrid integrated and between the dampening material and preamp tubes they impress anyone who visits. 

I had an opportunity to listen to the CW4’s today. The initial amp was the Luxman SQ150 el84 amplifier. I found them to be very dynamic with a great presence. I really like the way they let the music flow. There was no box sound to identify and the coherence was very nice. I noticed the music seemed a bit tightly wrapped at first- not strained but I realized that from experience I liked el84’s most for vocals and strings and simple music, not for a speaker demo. So I asked for another amp and they had a Primaluna el34 handy. I’ve never heard PL do have much opinion but the el34 opened up the reach of the music much more for me. The “tightness” disappeared and presentation warmed up and relaxed more. The flow was better.My impression of the bass great but a little lacking BUT they were inside of a pair of the monster horns and right up against the wall. The room was packed with speakers and boxes. What bass I heard was great but I’m concerned about them not reaching 30hz. Any thoughts about the placement?All in all found them excellent. I listened to Paradigms right after and it was hard not to hear the individual drivers in the boxes. If I want more dimension and tonal warmth than the PL what tubes and amp would you guys recommend? The little 15 watt Luxman seemed to have enough power just didn’t care for the 84’s. 

See my system profile for how I have them placed. I’d say they are pretty solid into the mid 30s but roll off pretty quickly after that.

I am using an Aric Audio Super KT88/120 SE and the 14 watts with KT88s seem to be the perfect match. But it sounds like you get the gist of what these speakers are about.

interesting thread...
I have both Spatial X5 and a new pair of Cornwall IV that I have been playing with the past few weeks. Both are the best speakers I have had the pleasure of living with in all these years of audiophilia. I would be hard pressed to part with either of them. The X5 are the most tonally accurate speaker I have heard. For example, pianos sound more convincing than any other speakers. The integrated sub is perfect and very easy to adjust, at least in my large room.

The Cornwalls only have about 100 hours on them. They are slowly coming into their own. I had a pair of original Cornies years ago that I bought used for cheap. I hated the honk of the horn so I put in Dave Harris’ fastrac horn and completely rebuilt the crossovers with much better parts. They were fun and had the horn jump, but ultimately, the so so imaging and slightly boomy bass just didn’t do it for me. I have several customers who raved about the new Cornwall IV and I had a little discretionary funding in the business (I build tube amps, preamps, phonos and integrated amps). So I bought a pair. I could hear the promise after 10-20 hours so I damped the horns and woofer frames with something similar to dynamat, and I am ordering VCap ODAM caps for the key crossover ones that are in series with the mid and high drivers. At 100 hours they are wonderful speakers (crossovers are untouched). Bass is slowly coming around and they are now pretty 3D. They always threw a wide and tall sound stage, but the depth is coming along nicely. I put some small rubberized cork pads under each corner of the footer. They are 2 inch thick, but I sliced them with the band saw down to 1 inch so as not to disturb the listening height. That immediately tightened up the bass response. That cheap experiment has me thinking about threaded inserts so I can use my soundcare super spikes, which are an enclosed floating spike and pad that are perfect for hard wood floors and isolate the speakers wonderfully. Plus you can adjust the height of each foot to level the speaker and slide them easily on the floor. Have had them for years and they are on the X5.

To sum up... The Spatial X5 is a tremendous speaker with incredible tonal accuracy. It completely vanishes in my room. The Cornwall IV is VASTLY improved over any previous version. They maintained the horn jump factor that everyone loved, but fixed the boomy bass and the new mid horn and driver are light years ahead of the previous versions. The tweeter is better as well. They are inanely dynamic in a way that only horn speakers are. You can play them as loud as you want and they are never strained, and they sound great at low levels. That is true with my 32 watt/ch KT66 integrated or the separate preamp and kt88 amp. They have more of a personality than the X5, which simply vanishes. I would never say the Cornwalls are bright, but they do have a bit of a sound. That is not a bad thing. Most of us love the sound. The Spatials really don’t have a sound in my room. They literally just aren’t there. I would not call them polite sounding at all, but everything else sounds a bit polite when you compare it to a good horn speaker. I remember old Altecs years ago with huge horns and 15 inch woofers in refrigerator cabinets. The Cornwall IV is finally a really good horn speaker. It gives you that big horn sound in a smaller box with MUCH more of the hifi attributes of imaging and tonality than previous versions. Plus in my room I can put them 6 inches from the rear wall and they are fine. So they really don’t take a lot of space and they look cool. 10 ft apart and I sit about 10-11 ft away and they are pointed at my shoulders. The scale is immense. They portray everything accurately, but I would have to give the Spatials a wee edge there right now. I will not seriously evaluate the cornwalls until they hit 300+ hours though. I know better. The bass is coming along. It is not boomy, but it also cannot quite match that of the X5 with the integrated subs. As everyone says, the Cornwall bass is tuneful though. If positioned correctly with seriously good tube equipment ahead of them, the Cornwalls image pretty much as well as the X5 and that is steadily improving. They have a way of putting you in the bar or club with the performers. Put on a live recording of a small jazz combo like Bill Evans or the classic Old and in the Way recordings and you can be present in the venue in a way that even the Spatials cannot quite protray. Honestly, I don’t think you can go wrong with either speaker and a good tube setup. All will depend on your tastes, your hearing curve, your gear, and your room. If you demo Cornwalls somewhere they have to be in a good room with a good setup driving them. Some receiver or cheapo integrated amp will never let you hear what they can do. Also, they have to have at least 100 hours or so of run in or you cannot hear what they offer. Love both speakers......The Spatials are eerily accurate at portraying voices and pianos and really everything. They vanish. The Cornies do most of that, but will let you walk around in the club with a drink and stand in front of the band....... and of course if you really want to crank them.....you can be at the live Dead show:) It really depends on what you are after as to which you would prefer.  

I would add that the Cornwalls are an addiction... either you are prey to that or not, but they are most definitely an addiction and whatever they don't quite have you are willing to ignore because they have that "wall of sound" and it fits into a pretty small package given what it is.

My 2 cents... happy listening.

Don Sachs

Awesome post Don. Thanks for sharing your experience with those 2. Now you need to check out the VOLTI RAZZ.  Better parts all the way around than the Cornwall's...especially the cabinet itself.

Thanks Don. That certainly carries weight. I don’t know them personally but Don and Bob are top cats in the craft:

http://www.dsachsconsulting.com

http://www.tubes4hifi.com

Thanks for sharing Don. That is similar to my take on comparing the X3 with the CW IV. Both great speakers for sure, but the Cornwall just connects me to the music more than the Spatial did.

Oz

Okay, an update. I had the chance to listen to the Cornwalls today at The Sound Room here in st. Louis. It was a Klipsch Heritage event complete with artisan whiskey tastings. 



Impressions: the room was nicely treated acoustically. And Much Too Small for these speakers. The bass boom squelched the imaging I knew these speakers ard capable of. So e recordings I could sense their magic, but most others everything blendef into a haze of projection. 


And I could tellsomething was up when the sound rep kept pushing live Floyd and Eagles recordings as test tracks. Eff that. I had to insist on well-produced Tears for Fears and Dominique Fils-aime in there. 


I'll be demo-ing the Triangle Cellos next week. 

Cornwall's do just fine in small rooms. ZERO FIDELITY reviewed them on his youtube channel....his room is 9x12.  Mine is 13x15.  They work very well in all size rooms.  Triangle's have Jacked Up Tweeters so be prepared.

I've owned Triangles before. These Cornwalls in this room just seemed too muddy and smeary. YMMV

I own 3 pairs of Triangle's...which is why I gave the warning. Much like Monitor Audio and Kef speakers they have attributes many dont like. Good that you already know their presentation and what to expect.

Hi
I would say that Cornwalls are anything but muddy or smeary which makes me question the room and most importantly the gear ahead of them.  I have mine maybe a foot from the rear wall, but they are each about 6 ft from the side walls.  Bass is very tight and fast.  As Oz noted, it probably goes down into the mid 30's with authority.  It is not a perfect speaker by any means, but if it sounded muddy, then the system in front of it had issues, the room had issues, or quite possibly, the speakers were relatively new and didn't have at least 100 hours on them and the woofer surrounds were not loosened up yet.  Not to say you wouldn't prefer some other speaker as we all have our taste, but Cornwall bass is quite fast and tight when all is working.. 

In this room, the Cornwalls were tightly cornered with little to no space between front and side walls. A McIntosh MA352 was the amplification and some streaming/iPad platform was the source. I have the feeling these speakers weren't presented as well as they could have been. 

Well, the amp isn't bad, but not great, and not a good DAC or vinyl ahead of them....  you didn't really hear them.  Too bad

@donsachs Your input, experience, and perspective here is very appreciated. As I'm considering Cornwalls, I see you mention that they're "not a perfect speaker." For the sake of comparison, what would you consider to be closer to "perfect?" I understand that most all speakers have a color of some sort. But by "perfect" do you mean those that measure well? BBC type monitors?

Thanks!

I found that putting them on Herbie’s Giant Gliders really evens out the frequency response and cleans up any muddiness in the upper bass and lower mids. Tiny changes in positioning--like a centimeter or less--in any direction also change the sound to a remarkable degree.

@simao , I think the upshot is that you need to audition in your space, with enough leeway to determine whether you can get them where you want them. The CW4 is an extremely resolving and well-balanced speaker that requires painstaking set up to reveal its capabilities. Dealer auditions will never do.

@wrm57 my space could easily accommodate the CW4s. It's just a matter of finding the circumstances to audition them at my place. 

Just order them from a place with a 60-day return, and figure to cost of return freight into your long-term investment in the sound you want. This way you’ll really know. That’s what I did. The trial is up next week but I’ll be keeping them, which I couldn’t say for sure until I spent a lot of time dialing them in. Just one happy CW4 owner’s opinion.

In reference to above.. there is no perfect speaker.  What I consider perfect, or at least near perfect, you probably would not, even given the same room and system because our hearing curves and tastes are different.   I would consider the X5 to be as perfect a speaker as I have ever heard.  Ozzy had the X3 and bought Cornwalls...   It depends on what you are after.  Some people love horns and simply couldn't live with any other type of speaker long-term.   Others cannot stand horns.

My preference is to always start with a tube friendly speaker design.  I cannot listen to SS amps.  I find them very two dimensional compared to a GOOD tube system.  A mediocre tube system is flabby in the bass, etc...   Given a tube friendly speaker you can put together all sorts of systems, roll tubes, etc....  You can tune it.   As I said above, the Cornwall IV is a completely different animal than previous versions.   I have them dialed in so I hear micro detail and a very 3D sound stage that is literally 10 -12 ft high and several feet wider than the speakers.  They will do that in a good room with a very good system driving them.  To me they image as well as any other top quality speaker I have had in here.

What you are seeing in the later part of this thread is that a dealer demo of the cornwall IV or any other speaker can turn you off them.  Most dealers don't have the speakers well placed.   I would never demo a tube friendly speaker with even that mac hybrid integrated.  You are listening to a solid state power amp driving a very efficient horn speaker that cries out for tubes.  If I were to demo the Klipsch heritage line I would certainly have a top notch all tube system in front and a really good source, not some iPad.  A top notch DAC.

Others will disagree with me and prefer solid state amps.  That's cool, that is what the hobby is about.   I can build anything, but I only build tube amps because that is all I can listen to.  Heck, I have serious preferences in capacitors, power supply topology, output transformer type, etc...  But those are mine.  Others have different tastes.  Same with speakers... there is no perfect speaker.   Given a budget you should try to hear a number of different designs and then hopefully demo something in your room with your system.  Not always possible I know....

I was surprised when the store employees started dialing in song selections from their iPads. There was a McIntosh turntable in the room and I had brought some vinyl, but at no time did the store emps ask about it or offer to play. They said they had a four song playlist that Klipsch recommended for a sound test. 


They also insisted on playing each track at huge volumes. Nothing wrong with that, per se, but there were no jazz or classical offerings. They seemed really excited to play The Eagles and, considering the demographic most likely to buy these, I'm not surprised. But it turned me off completely. 


Another listener suggested a Nils lufgren track and the 3D imaging was quite good, but every other iPad track was bombastic and one dimensional. 

I think the IPad was most likely controlling a music server, but yes they should ask what you would like to listen to and leave you to listen without any interruptions. You are the customer, the priority, the one paying the bills. My experience is that for years many shops were focused mostly on installations to get by. It seems the more recent surge in people getting out to listen to 2 channel has them a little rusty. Hopefully we all get into our groove again.

Don offers good advice. I would never consider pairing klipsch heritage speakers with SS amps, although some do. I am listening to Deep Purple "Made in Japan" right now with 14 tube watts much louder than I probably should and it sounds awesome. Seek out another audition or try to get a pair in your home. 

Oz

Yes, I am sure the iPad was controlling some sort of server, but again, it was probably a Mac or some other decent grade thing, but maybe not top shelf.   My experience with the Cornwall IV and the X5 is that they are up there in rarified air.  They are that level of speaker.  Of course there are probably better speakers, but both of these are very good.  Every time I change a tube I can easily hear it in either speaker.  Any subtle change upstream can be heard.  So if I am demoing these speakers I am setting up a KILLER system in front of them.   They are capable of micro detail and very 3D imaging.  My opinion is that if you put a SS amp in front of them you will not hear that.  Of course you want the customer to be able to play whatever music they love to evaluate them as well.   I listen to a lot of poor recordings I love anyway, but I listen to my set of 50-100 tracks of all genres to evaluate the gear I build.  I would never use certain tracks to evaluate a pair of speakers.  Your list of tracks would be different than mine:)

3-5 days. Looking for a few recs on dimensional, gold tone compared to silver tube amps. Single ended and up to maybe 60 wpc. Thanks!

Avoid single ended if you want tight bass.  A really good push pull amp has every bit of the magic of a single ended one

7 days. They must be pulling them up the Delaware by mule like they did when they first came out. Will update once I get them going.

One initial impression that comes to mind with these is maturity. These speakers having a way of playing with stature and solidity regardless of the genre. Haven’t had a chance to sit and listen but will make time over the next few days. 

Ah, so they arrived.  Good.  They change a lot in the first 100 hours and the worst is the first 20-30 so it is good you are playing them and not really listening much.   They are fun:)

Also, look at the various threads about isolation.  Nothing fancy.  Those cheap rubberized cork pads all over Amazon work great.  I was only able to find 2 inch thick ones, but I sliced them down to 1 inch on a band saw.  You can use Herbies dots, whatever, but I certainly found that isolating them from the floor tightened up the bass and really everything.  You can do it really inexpensively.  the cork pads cost me about $20 for both speakers.

Congrats @bjesien They are indeed fine speakers that do so many things right. I'm sure you will be even more impressed when you can spend some quality time with them.

Oz

Yes, congrats. Labor well the placement. As with many good speakers, tiny changes make big differences in tonal balance and imaging.

I have around 100 hours on the Cornwalls. I never thought I would be sitting across from a pair of Klipsh speakers but I’m really impressed with them. They are engaging and dynamic with great subtly and articulation.
I have them aimed so if I’m sitting in front of them I can barely see the inside plane of the speakers. I’d say this is almost directly firing. I like them better with the grills off. The grills are unfortunately some sort of cheap rubber that feels like outdoor furniture. That’s probably the only negative thing I can say about them at this point.
So far I don’t find them bright at all. No falling asleep from boredom, no twitching or beaming or ears ringing. Very impressed at how they are so lively without taking it too far like so many speakers.
Using a Coda CSIB and it’s doing a wonderful job driving them. Will likely switch over to tubes at some point but I’m in no hurry. Thanks for the recommendations, I would have never tried these if it weren’t for some of you sharing your speaker journeys.

Congrats BJ....Good to know the Coda works welll with them.  Recently picked up the #8 amp and the 7 Pre combo so look forward to trying them out on them down the road. Enjoy your new toy!!