Curious as to the demise and downfall of the seemingly short lived linear tracking TT. Just from a geometry point of view I would have thought a linear arm should be superior to one with a fixed pivot that sweeps through an arc. Obviously there is much more to it than that, sort of the reason for this thread. I am genuinely interested in trying one out for myself as well.
Went to a neighboring town record store Sat. There sat this Rabco
SL-8E/Panasonic SP-10 MK I combo. Tried to walk away from it. Not fast
enough. Had some issues. Got it home last night. Pull the 10 out cleaned
and adjusted it. Works fine. played with the arm today. I actually got
it moving. But still have issue with the cueing down. Tonight Wed. Played with the arm some more. Actually got the arm lift to work so I
don’t have to hold the lift switch. played several albums all the way
thru and the arm lifted at the end as it should.
Just found this thread and have to say, the ONLY turntable I've owned since 1984 is a ReVox B791. My cartridge then, and still, is an Ortofon VMS20E and I've found new styli for it in the last few years.
I used to cut master lacquers for vinyl in the late 70s to early 80s and wanted to play vinyl exactly as they were cut. I've had my 791 serviced a couple of times by a great ReVox tech in Nashville. The servo drive of the cartridge is absolutely brilliant and, since there isn't any groove distortion, everything I play on it sounds great.
The Ortofon cartridge feeds a Graham Slee preamp into my RME AD/DA interface. I've used this combo many times to create digital masters for old clients who lost their master tapes, but still have 'test-pressings' that were never played. With a minimal amount of de-click processing, the files are good enough to make CD masters, yet still have that great sound of vinyl.
Well I ponied up and bought a Nagaoka c502mp cart for my SL-10. Mighty spendy at $60 shipped😁😁. It's a decent improvement for sure and now has a very dynamic and forward sound, something I do not mind too much. I can see it getting a bit more usage now it's in my main system and a half decent Cart installed.
Chris I have to say it is sounding rather good. Certainly no inner groove distortion, not that I ever really noticed that on the 401 unless my cart setup was way off. This old AT cart is producing an admirable amount of bass and mid. Some of the top end sparkle is missing compared to the Koetsu in the 401 ( as it should bearing in mind the price difference!). Certainly very listenable.
If you want to know why linear trackers are a bad idea just watch the cantilever closely while playing a record. The cantilever will deflect towards the spindle and eventually the tonearm follows, overshoots a little deflecting the cantilever away from the spindle than the whole process starts over again. What you have is an oscillating skating force. The sad fact of the matter is that the horizontal effective mass is way too high. The cartridge no longer has any leverage over the horizontal bearing. Even the Clearaudio arms do this. The right way to do this would be to read the groove lateral movement maybe optically right in front of the stylus and drive the tonearm across the record with a servo mechanism. We can get lasers to read tiny pits in plastic why not groove lateral velocity?
Kevin look for some records that sound good to you and are pressed closest to the spindle. Curious if you hear a difference on the inner grooves compared to what u r used to. Cheers Chris .
Dragged my old Technics SL-10 out today to take a good look at it. I stopped using it as it had started to sound very sibilant. Plus I had a number of other tables so. After removing the Azden cart I can see the cause of sibilance. The cantilever was bent to one side, have to put that down to me being clumsy I guess. Rummaged around in my cart drawer and found an old Shure M-92 variant in a p mount, nice find. Fitted and sat down and suitably impressed with the SQ in my main rig.
As it takes up so little space I will keep it there for a while and put some miles on it.
@uberwaltz that air prodigy is definitely a partial copy of the Trans Fi Terminator now being produced in Russia since Vic retired -
https://www.musicfromvinyl.shop/
@twoleftears
I caved and I just bought a Clearaudio TT5 to try out
This is wierd, I just stumbled on this thread after just picking up a Pioneer PL1000 from a work friend who bought it when he was stationed in Germany in 1982. He shipped it home and never played it much if at all. Well, after giving him $50.00 for it, I got it home, opened the box and Wow this TT is brand new. The dust cover is absolutely pristeen. Pluged it in and every thing works perfectly. Now to research a little more n this TT.
Just fired up my old sl10 after seeing this thread brought back . With the Adzen p mount cart in it now, I was pleasantly impressed again . It resides in my PC room system right now but might have to try it again in my main rig now it has a totally different phono and SUT from the last less than satisfying trial.
Bergmann is NOT german. It is Danish......plug and play ttt’s (manual) there is also to mention: HOLBO, Pre- Audio and Zorin. The Zorin is about to be available in the US and EU late 2019/early 2020 - heard through the grapewines. .The concept and development of full automatic and good sounding ttt’s died with the compact discs entry. Models from B&O, Technics, Studer/Revox and ex. Pioneer are sought after and priced pretty high. IMO they are way better players than many mid priced overhypped manual decks offered today. Sorry guys not to offend anyone just sharing my experience. With the available technology today it is for sure possible to manufacture a killer full automatic tangential turntable. They will not show up yet because they are still milking the cow producing horrible high priced manuals. If I polish my crystalball I think that Technics or Pioneer would be the first who offer such. A revised Technics SL-10 / Pioneer P-1000 with or without riaa, revised tonearm, headshell etc. Sign me up :-)
UW So the previous post dealt with the mechanical. We also have the electrical, and IMO, the Technics SL10's internal preamp quality and condition is suspect, and its artifacts heard in the more resolving system/room.
I can see the DIY Audiophile bypassing it, eliminating that "baggage", with a loom direct from the Cartridge to your reference preamp.
But a warning, as this Audiophile rabbit hole is akin to running naked through the woods.
You could well be right and the older sl10 with a used azden cart may well be suffering from many of the symptoms described under your main causes of sibilance.
Absolutely as the second system total cost is less that the cartridge on my main system it will be much less resolving and likely just does not show up these deficiencies.
In the past I have found that the more resolving a system becomes, the more it can highlight set up errors with vinyl. So many moving separate pieces. If it is happening with all the records, and not just a few, and the other room was fine; then I suspect that your system/room 1, is more resolving, and the SL10 deck will therefore require fine tuning for that room.
Better adjustment of SRA, VTF, Azimiuth. Too much VTF can affect SRA.
Also, audiophiles that like to use the type of Speakers, that are normally found in Recording Studios; these speakers will reveal more of the good, and the bad.
But hey, since it seems to have found a home in your other room ......
1. Worn stylus/damaged stylus 2. Fouled stylus 3. Low end styli (conical) 4. Improper antiskating (PLEASE FOLLOW OUR INSTRUCTIONS - DO NOT USE A TEST RECORD) 5. Improper azimuth (far more critical as styli become more esoteric in shape) 6. Improper VTF 7. Bad tone arm bearings
Finally got round to placing the sl10 into my main system and what disappointment.
Not because of the sq per se but what must be some mismatch in equipment although it is most odd.
With the sl10 hooked up to my main rig through the GoldNote PH10 there is just very excessive sibilance that cannot be tamed, even dropping loading from 47k to 22k did not rid it even though there was a lot of drop of treble and detail.
Very strange as back in my second system it is perfect, listening to it now.
Chalk it up to system synergy, or lack thereof in this case!
Just been having fun with the sl10. Have 3 carts for it and been checking out what I prefer. Still the Adzen is tops followed by the Ortofon MC p mount cart and lastly a Sonus p mount mm ( which I think really needs a new stylus) This thing has made me lazy though!. Just pop the top, drop an album in, close the top and push start. Enjoy music.
Not got around to placing into the main system yet,so much to do, so little time!
Not had chance to insert into main rig and in sunny Illinois all next week for work so may be a while but it will be interesting. Already have a couple of test albums selected that I know well and build towards the tighter grooves.
Clever expression of the rule, but only in writing: gibberish when spoken. I still rely on my 6th grade teacher: If it means "it is", use "it’s" — everything else is "its".
If you are happy that it [SL-10] is set up properly and works well. (won’t wreck your lps)
The next step is to put it in your first system, and play a record that has history there; an LP that you are intimately familiar with. One that you know every pop on it - and expect it. 8^0
Some would not dream of putting a $50 bought turntable up against their expensive one.
I think you will be surprised at what you hear.
I tried it. It wasn’t the SL-10, but the Mitsubishi LT-22 linear tracker. Same small tracking error (0.1°) but it takes 1/2"-mount cartridges. I put it in my main system; used LOMCs (Dynavector, Van den Hul, Fidelity Research, et al); and chose a "torture" LP: Mahler 3, whose finale taxes all arms/carts.
I never heard it so clean and dynamic: it just grew and grew until I had to turn it down before the cops arrived. Overall, for less tortuous music, it wasn’t ’quite’ as good as my better rigs, but only by a bit and that ’bit’ was small. And I think it can be ameliorated, maybe eliminated, as the internal wiring has five (5) solder breaks (not counting solder at the h’shell leads and RCA plugs). Eliminate those breaks, replace with a single run of good wire, and it will be better. Make it a fixed’headhsell, and better still. Might even turn that ’bit’ into a zero (the arms I compared it to were all fixed h’shell, giving them an advantage in the results).
But I now like the convenience of changeable headshells — not to mention the convenience of push-button auto-play/auto-life, which add no noise whatsoever. Shame it’s not a sexy as the SL-10 (I had one and loved it until...)
I've always noticed your upgrade path and how fast it moves. If I may, I'd slow down a little. For me, I found that the more time I spend with one "upgrade" before making a move like, buying another piece of gear, the better. I do love, your love for this hobby my friend.
I won't provide any hints of what I and others hear. Will just say - look for an LP that provides you with huge Gestalt, especially toward the end of the side. Crescendo movement.
Physically, a record that has grooves running closer to the spindle. The inside grooves on an LP are the smallest, tightest, and hardest to track.
Chris I may just do that.... However cw the Azden cart it cost a little bit more than $50 ...lol It was the Sansui that was just $55 and that was vastly inferior SQ to the SL-10 and has already been relegated. Maybe tomorrow I will try it.
Well, you know what needs to happen now uberwaltz ?
I mean this is the biggest and baddest (in a good way) .....Audiophile site.
If you are happy that it is set up properly and works well.
(won't wreck your lps)
The next step is to put it in your first system, and play a
record that has history there; an LP
that you are intimately familiar with. One that you know every pop on it - and expect it. 8^0
Some would not dream of putting a $50 bought turntable up
against their expensive one.
I think you will be surprised at what you hear. kudos for walking the walk ..so far ....8^0
Chris Yes absolute sense especially as my patient searching just found similar information on an old thread on StereoNet Australia of all places! Apparently the aussies love these things, likely because they will play upside down.... (jk before any angry Ausmen get all wound up!)
Unfortunately as the original excellent mc cart is near unobtanium and I could not find any aftermarket p mount mc carts it will be wearing an Azden YM-P20E for now. So I will just select MM and feed it into my regular mm phono stage.
This was the quote I found, and then a few more posts after it expounding on it a little more
"By the way, the Technics SL-10 doesn't have a built-in MC phono stage or preamp. It's a head amp/pre-preamp; gain stage only, no R.I.A.A. re-equalisation."
I have just acquired a Technics sl10 linear tracker which looks to be fully functional and in good shape.
My question is concerning the RCA out. It looks like it has a built in phono amp as the little button next to the RCA outs says mm/mc. Does this mean it cannot be used through a phono amp as there does not appear to be a bypass to this , just choice of mm or mc. Thank you
Clamps - the TransiFi manifold beam rides about 35 mm above the platter and 47 mm from the centre of the spindle. In my setup. Therefore, any weight < 88mm (3.5") of any height would fit.
Cartridges - I use very low compliance cartridges (Mayajima Zero and Koetsu) with the TransFI, but prefer the sound with a 2.9g brass weight on the nose of the wand, and a ’German silver’ (i.e. nickel brass alloy) 0.625" disk, with two holes drilled and tapped to accept the #3-56 brass cartridge bolts. This increases the mass of the tonearm and the rigidity of the cartridge mount. Also, I use MoonGel on every flat surface (wand and saddle) to reduce vibration.
I’ll host a thread on mods and setup after my construction project is finished (summer?).
Great information. I have always used and been a fan of the Mitchell clamp rather than a weight per se. Works on any spindle just about and I would have thought would not intrude in the path of any linear arm. I would think some of the taller weights would not physically fit with the design of some linear arms.
Just as a FYI - The ET2 tonearm thread contains Yellow Sticky's of the more important information like what types of carts and compliance to use. Anyone interested can go to any Audiogon search field and type in
ET2 Yellow Sticky
A list of subjects comes up to choose from.
The cartridge compliance information you are asking about has been covered on the the thread but it is long thread, and the Audiogon format can be hard to navigate. I just posted a new Yellow Sticky there on Cartridge Guidelines.
For the ET2 tonearm there is no limit on cartridge compliance, as long as long as it is supported by the proper Armwand and I beam Leaf Spring Combo. Per the attached link.
*******************************
Hi uberwaltz - just a followup on your weights and clamps question. IMO what one is using depends first on the turntable design, and then if the tonearm supports it. Per Frogmans VPI clamp example.
Re; Center Weights
i.e. La Platine's magnetic bearing can support 8 kilograms if someone desired. But I would not think of adding this much weight to my Jean Nantais Lenco or Technics SP10 mechanical bearings.
I am also in the camp of making sure the LP is not "slippy" but allowing it to breathe. Also the only LPs I own that I can recall that are not visually flat when spinning ......are newer bought ones.
After all these years and multiple center weights, I do still use an HRS analog disk. I like it. I also have some Michell/England clamps around as well. Working like the VPI ones without the need for a threaded spindle. Cheers
Question for you Trans-Fi and ET 2 users- what kind of cartridges have you found best in terms of compliance? I have been using fairly high compliance cartridges since i got the Kuzma Airline years ago (Lyra, then Airtight) and using this stopgap Monster Genesis, which is medium compliance, its behavior seems better suited to the horizontal play of my arm. Thoughts? BTW, uberwaltz- i use a center clamp/weight- the Kuzma table came with a pretty hefty screw down clamp, and i've been using the Stillpoints weight pretty much since it was introduced. Obviously, different set up than the Trans-Fi.
The VPI ring clamp is not usable with the ET2 on my TNT6.
I would a take a chance on this if looking for a sub-$100 p mount. Part of the Azden cartridge line. The Azden YM-P50VL that I own is an excellent cartridge. In some ways I prefer it to my favorite P-mount the Acutex 420STR. This one is the same as the Azden YM-20E (elliptical stylus). New after market styli are available. For $50 and seemingly in good shape, seems like a no-brainer to me. Good luck.
Well to cut a long story short I acquired a Technics Sl10 this morning in fully functional order at a price I don’t think anybody could have walked away from. Well I could not at any rate. However it has no cartridge.
So any suggestions for a good p mount cart that is not going to break my bank. Ones costing twice as much as the TT are out! Let’s just say sub $100. A quick look on eBay reveals many options but I have not much idea on good or so so.
I did read that the Shure m92e was supposed to be a decent performer? So any real world suggestions welcomed!
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