Okay, just for the heck of it, I re-loaded my Parasound JC1 with all Furutech fuses. However, I had 4 small 10A Hi-Fi Tuning Silverstar fuses that I put in the post regulator power supply for the input stage. They are severely oversized, but enough for me to get an idea. These Silverstar are extremely fast and bright fuses, so much that they are way too bright in most systems. What I got was an interesting wake up call. It added just enough attack so that it took the JC1 out of the “too warm” area. I got detail and resolution and excitement added to the mix. However, extended listening told me that the sound was just a tiny bit tilted towards the upper mids (making things sound just a bit high) and it gave me somewhat of a “click” sound in the high frequencies. However, it provided the detail and resolution, but still kept the fullness of body and the organic life and texture. Based on this test, I’m going to be ordering a few Hi-Fi Tuning Supreme fuses to add into the mix, so I’ll have a combination of Furutech and Supreme. The Hi-Fi Tuning Supreme are faster than Furutech, but much more natural and less bright sounding than the Silverstars. So, it turns out that I just needed a pinch more attack/resolution to bring the JC1s into perfect balance within my system. With all Furutech/stock fuses, the Parasound was just a bit too warm/slow in my system. System synergy is an important thing and you may have to work on tuning your scenario. I will most likely be putting these 7b3 up for sale, but I won’t be able to do that until this weekend. |
@auxinput - have you heard any of the other Bryston cubed amps or just the 7b3?
Thanks for your write ups. They are very good. |
I own an Esoteric K-01x and loved the sound paired with McIntosh 601 monos but when I switched to McIntosh 2301 tube monos the K-01x sounds much better - as in no digital edge. I wish I had used a tube amp sooner. |
@mr_bill - no, I have not heard any other Bryston cubed amps. Only the 7b3 that I just bought. |
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@auxinpput
Thank you for the detailed look (and listen) at the Brystons - you're comments really have been a great help so far. It's obviously not apples to apples but it's still quite helpful to hear how they sound in your system with the Krell S1200 and the B&W 805s in relation to the Parasound JC1. I'm also quite happy for you that you seemed to have found the right tweaks in the form of fuses for those amps in your system. From your comments on the 7BSST3s it sounds like they fit my list of attributes - at least in theory. But at in any case, there are definitely ways to 'warm it up' a bit if need be. I will say that the Bryston is just about the highest resolution and highest resolving amp I have heard. That being said, it will not add anything (which could be bad if you need something added into the signal).
That last part of your write up sounds like it's just what I am looking for. Albeit unheard at this stage.Since I have to start somewhere, I might as well go with this one :) Thank you again for taking the time to add your thoughts on the Bryston 7BSST3. |
@AUXINPUT,
Your last post about fuse change was extremely well done. I have always wanted to know about this ability of fuse change in a controlled environment with enough time with good equipment to tell the differences of what the fuse is doing.
Bryston amplifiers are the reliable workhorses that usually sound very solid state, and could use some kind of a soft source or tube preamp to give that body to the music that most spend the big dollars for. I had no idea that the fuse change could get a good result that would be so worth it to Bryston owners.
The JC1 monoblocks have been something I would love to hear on my system one day.
Took a long time for me to get the system synergy that I have heard before. The wiring of the interconnects and speaker wire changes things dramatically. It can drive you crazy, changing and listening with break-in time (if you buy new).
When I was younger, I had an Audio business. It was just "high end audio design" and installation. During installations, I had up to a dozen interconnects, and 4 pairs of speaker wire to tune the system. Had so much fun with other people's money, and going into these high end homes. Then things changed to home theater and computer systems design. So I took that route. You go where the money is. Still had a ton of fun (now retired) spending millions of other people's money. I got to build a lot of custom high end computers that were faster than what you could buy, unless they were custom built. It's fun to be back with the High End Stereo systems. Thanks, AUXINPUT for making some interesting reading with your dive into the fuse changes on the amplifiers. Dennis
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Consider Kara Chaffee's new 40Watt mono amps. I have a set and have never been as pleased with others I have owned. Including McIntosh.
Dehaviland Super 40s on the internet. Around 5 grand and worth every penny. |
I totally agree with Elizabeth on leaving the Bryston on all the time. It really maje a difference. When I blew a fuse on my 17b3 preamp, I put my BP25 back in and my system sounded harsh. I was rather embarrassed because some friends came over to listen. It smoothed out 3-6 hours I can't remember, I had a tandberg 3008 preamp and it was the same. Its the same with my Tandberg 3014a. It sounds best after being left on 24 hours but the caveat is I run the risk burning out my capstan motor and they can be only rebuilt once. I only turn it on when I'm going to use it. I'm pleased with my 14b3. Its much smoother and has a tighter bass than my 14bsst. It has taken about a month for it to settle in but I could immediately tell a differnce after the first power up. Keep us posted. |
im lusting after PS Audio BHK |
per a few votes above, i would strongly suggest the PS Audio BHK mono blocks. I have the 250 stereo amp and it is fabulous driving my Thiel 3.7 speakers. I want to put a strong plug in for their new power regenerators as they are incredible. I have the P15 and it transformed my system.
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Interesting system you have. The Marantz receivers are actually pretty good. I use a 7702 Mk 2 pre in my AV system (the one that superseded it was a step down) and as I use two different amplification set ups depending on whether I am doing AV or just pure audio, I sometimes get lazy and leave the AV stuff (all solid state vs. the 'listening system which is tube) in the loop when I want to do a bit of casual listening and it is very decent. BTW, think about going to a separate server with all your music on it - I have around 4,000 CDs and for the first time I can actually find anything I want on my computer when I want to play it!
I haven't heard your power amp but have found several of the Bryston power amps a tad dry (I do run one of their preamps, a BP17, in a second system, and have an old 2B power amp - still a pretty good sounding unit despite the age, in my library system). I don't know that you need monoblock amps and can save some money by going for one stereo amp and as I am also in Canada, I think the Simaudio products are a good way to start looking, but don't discount the early Dave Reich designed Classe amps - they are once again up and running under new ownership and I was able to get one of my old Classe DR3 - VHCs overhauled with no problems.
There are a lot of heritage older amps out there that compare well with current stuff. I run an older Roland in the AV system, for instance and you can buy them for a fraction of what a new amp costs.
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I’ve enjoyed the Krell 575 monoblocks for 6 months. Not a day goes by that I am not thoroughly happy with them. No problems with heat.
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Another vote to consider the bhk 300. Been lusting for them. Luckily they arrive next week, going to be a momumental upgrade |
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Hi eothar, I am Joining this discussion late, but if your still checking in I would concur with those who say that your issues would lay more with your power delivery. Your amps, 600W@8 ohms, have twice the rated power necessary to run your speakers. Your amps are not being maximized to their fullest potential - they are not getting enough power. If you have 20K to spend look towards Cabling. Also your JBLs have a frequency response of 32hz -40khz, you may want to consider adding a pair of subs. I had a pair of speakers with the same frequency response. I adjusted my power cables and added a pair of subs which gave me the desired effect you are looking to achieve. My suggestion for getting the best value added out of $20K Start by adding these cables, which would be better than adding power amp to your system. Stage 3 Concepts - will open up the soundstage and resolution - provide clean detailed bass and spacial separation you are craving - Think Krakens. www.stage3concepts.comHB Power distributor - Power Slave....
www.hb-cable-design.com
Thales - for the price the best speaker cables you will ever own will add the detail you are seeking
www.tonarm.ch
I looked to REL for my sub Issues. JL makes great products as well - look for ones with at least a 15" drivers to pair with your JBLs. What I have realized is that most Speakers that have Frequency responses that run below 21 hz are usually have active subs. The few that are not are astronomically high priced, except Devore's Silverbacks - discontinued. Good Luck |
If you get a chance to listen to a pair of Vandersteen mono's I don't think you would be disappointed.They are , to me, very good looking, too. |
@auxinput
Interesting description of the JC1s interaction with fuses.
Are the amps fully broken in or relatively new ?
This is important as they are totally different beasts after 1500 hrs. break in.
Thanks |
Your amps, 600W@8 ohms, have twice the rated power necessary to run your speakers. Your amps are not being maximized to their fullest potential - they are not getting enough power.
I would like to directly challenge this statement, as I have used several extremely high power amps in my system and have never had problems with having an amp that has "too much power". The fact that the amp has twice the rated power for a speaker should never be considered a negative thing. In actuality, you want a huge reserve of power supply capacitance because any time the output circuits need to pull in voltage from the power supply in response to an input signal, the actual voltage from the power supply takes a dip. Even if you can't measure this on a scope as "power supply ripple", it will still affect your sound quality and impact. I also have 1,000 watt Emotiva XPR-1 monoblocks that include a massively huge 240,000uf power supply with a seriously heavy transformer (2.4kVA if I remember right). With Furutech fuses loaded, these amps are amazingly detailed and nice for the price. Never had a problem with "too much power for speakers", since I'm driving B&W 805, and they are specified at 120 watts. In actuality, these speakers sounded better with a beefier larger amp. NOTE: another disclaimer on Emotiva. While they are very amazing amps for the money (if you load them with Furutech fuses), they are not the best amps out there. There is an electrical resonance in the circuits that I can hear that makes the highs a little jangly and thin, as well as some grain in the general sound. Other amps (JC1, 7b3, etc.) will be much cleaner and more refined sounding, but also significantly more expensive. ---- Finally, if you really read what the OP was doing, you would see that he is in an apartment and doesn't want massive bass. While the REL subs are awesome (I have heard one), the OP will have more than enough bass with good amps on his JBL 1400. |
@rost - I honestly don't know. I bought them used, but they were only manufactured a year ago. I do have about 500 hours on them at this point. I have read that about JC1 amps (requiring 1200-1500 hours) and that was a big concern of mine when I was researching a couple weeks ago. |
I heard the Bryston 7BSST3s with an EAR 912 tube preamp and it sounded excellent on Carver Amazing speakers. Actually, more like superb in the mids and highs. Upgrading the fuses and duplex are low cost upgrades. Do not use Bryston A/C cables. They are inferior sounding. I know as I replaced my BIT20 IT with GroverHuffman 20 amp A/C cables to clean and speed up the sound.
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@ auxinput
¨Stock – JC1 has a very refined sound, midrange is very smooth and refined. Emphasis is tilted slightly towards the upper midrange which causes the audio to sound just a little bit thin in the midbass area. Sound is soft. Overall, sound to me is just a little bit low fidelity. It’s very smooth and refined, but just doesn’t sing or have that effect of sounding real.¨
Your above observations are exactly how my JC1s, purchased sometime ago, sounded to me before total break in.Too closed in and to be blunt, dull. In fact I mailed the late Bob Crump (R.I.P.) stating that although I appreciated their smooth refined sound I felt they were lacking top end extension to which he answered and I´m paraphrasing, ´give them time and they will open up nicely´. Which they did.
So I would encourage you to keep them working with the original fuses for awhile longer and after, if you notice the change in sound I´m speaking about, reevaluate the effects of different fuses. In fact I was ridiculed in a long ago post by another member for recommending that JC1s require the 1500 hours to finally sound their best. I believe this to be the case with most if not all new components and probably the reason for so much turn around of gear that new owners experience for lack of patience.
Regards |
eohtar OP
Others that sound (no pun intended) interesting but will be a lot harder
to get a hold of in Canada:
Parasound Halo JC1 - around 6K USD
Good choice the JC1's if you get a pair, in high bias mode they sounded really good on Wilson Alexia's my friend has, and as I said if too expensive the new JC5 stereo is suppose to have the same sound character but cheaper. Cheers George |
Good Day,
Just to clarify, I did carefully read the OP concerns. I shared my observations because It took me a long time to appreciate the importance of building a strong foundation for a decent sound system. I shared my experiences because I found myself in a similar situation several years ago - at a cross roads on trying to achieve the best sound for the best value for my dollar.
I like most initially looked at investing in the stuff you see, the components. Its not sexy to consider investing substantial money into the hidden unseen parts, like power delivery. But it is those parts that are the foundation of a system. I have seen people waste money buy throwing money at the problem by switching components and speakers in and out of their systems without ever addressing investing in a strong Power delivery foundation.
The point was not to say that too much power is a bad thing, Rather than to point out that the amps design is more than substantial for the speakers he has and is happy with.
He does not necessarily need new amps. However the amps that he has are most likely not performing to their maximum performance. Perhaps - 50% maybe - because they not getting enough power/ electricity to their internal components. If his amps are at not at peak performance neither is his system.
The Power Chords I listed are solely engineered for that purpose. That is all they do. They are specifically designed to insure that maximum power/ electricity is delivery to each component so that the components are operating at their maximum performance. The more Power the greater detail is achieved.
Additionally adding subs does not translate to to blowing out the neighborhood. Easily achieved by volume control. His speakers are rated at 32hz at the low end, to further achieve getting down towards lets say 20Hz with out investing a ton of money he would need to get a sub.
By getting a sub to integrate with the system it would expand the mid to lower mid range increasing the overall sound stage and exposing a level of detail that he is seeking. This is unattainable with just his speakers alone. That sound stage would also have greater spacial separation while simultaneously achieving an overall lower bass response.
This is just another long term cost effective way of looking at achieving or solving the issues the OP is facing. |
It's been a few days since my last post and I had some time to play around with my system. The first thing I did was to change the gain setting on my current amps from 2V to 1V as suggested by @elizabeth
Next I slightly moved the speakers - they are now a bit closer together and more importantly, the left channel is a good bit further away from the side wall.
After that it was time to calibrate all the settings (levels and distances) and finally do some listening.
And I must say, it sounds pretty darn good right now. I am not sure if it was the gain setting of the speaker position (probably a bit of both), but the sound has opened up nicely and everything seems a tad more lively with plenty of detail.
I will still look into (meaning listen to) a couple of amps mentioned here (namely the cubed Bryston, Pass Labs, and Classe but at this stage more to satisfy my own curiosity than an actual upgrade.
Another item where @auxinput beat me to it is the suggestion of upgrading cables to get more out of my current amps. While I am not opposed to playing around with cables and agree that they can make a difference and/or help dial in the exact sound you want, I will politely ignore suggestions of power cords that have a listed price of $8400 (that's US btw). Especially when that suggestion had been posted on another threat almost verbatim by the same author. Not to mention the fact that two of those cables would cost me around $22K in Canadian dollars - three times what I paid for both amps together. No thank you!
To sum it up - really quite happy with how the system sounds right now. Sometimes a few small changes can go a long way.
I'll still look into some upgraded cable (both power and XLR) options but at some more reasonable prices. |
Right there in Canada, check out Audio Sensibility for all your cable needs, at real world prices. |
Agreed on the Audio Sensibility. The Signature Silver interconnects (either XLR or RCA) from Audio Sensibility are probably the best you can do. That is if you want silver. I used to own these interconnects before I moved to OCC/Rhodium. My cousin still has a pair of the Signature Silver XLR and they are hard to beat. Actually, I could build these cables myself if I wanted to, but it would cost just as much to get the wire/connectors, so it's a really awesome value for the money!! However, I would suggest you avoid the lower end Impact and Statement series as they use stranded conductors. You’ll do much better with something like Wire World or Audioquest. Keep in mind that silver has it’s own double-edged sword and can sound too bright/sterile/harsh on a system that has too much resolution. It’s a fine line balancing act. For power cords, I agree that getting $1,000 plus power cords is a total waste of money. Most of them use stranded conductors, which in my testing always results in sound that is not as good (phasing issues and solid-state sounding). I shy away from silver or silver-plated solutions as well. If you are willing to DIY, I usually get a used Audioquest NRG-4 cable and chop the ends, then put on Furutech FI-28(R) rhodium connectors for IEC/Male. At the used prices today, it will come to $450-500 USD for a power cord that will beat the crap out of most other cords in the market. The Audioquest NRG-4 uses all solid-core OCC type solid-core copper conductors (4 x 19awg for hot, 5 x 21awg for neutral/ground). What many people don’t realize is that the connector plug accounts for half of the sound quality of the cable. The stock NRG-4 cable sound nice and it has a very solid sound, but the gold-plated connectors will impart a warm sound with rolled-off/recessed highs. If you are budget constraint, you can even use the cheaper Furutech FI-11-N1(R) series or even go down to the Cardas 3455R connectors. For interconnects, I hand make all mine using braided 20awg solid-core OCC conductors and Furutech rhodium XLRs. Speaker cable is usually a double-run of Rocket 44/88 with Furutech rhodium spades. (two runs of Rocket 44/88 would be a 10awg speaker cable). |
I am with you @twoleftears and @auxinput
Already have the Audio Sensibility Silver Signature to connect the K-01X to the Marantz.
From there it's Nordost Blue Heaven to the Brystons - I just might try some sensible upgrade there. It's a 4m (or about 12ft for those non-metric) run, so it can get expensive - depending on the brand of course :)
As for power cords, it's Wire World (Electra 7 - OCC) for all the front end and Gutwire G Clef 2 for the amps which is OFC.
The wall sockets are Furutech Rhodium.
And last but not least, the speaker cable is the first generation Nordost Valhalla.
I admit that's a pretty mixed bag but like I said, the system seems to gel really well right now.
But of course that never stopped anyone from tweaking things here and there, right?
That being said, let's not turn this into a thread on cables - those conversations seem to get out of hand very quickly... |
I have a pair of JBL 1400 Arrays. I have tried a few different amps on them and have found that the Marantz MA9-S2 mono blocks as sounding superior. I have them matching SC7-S2 pre and SA7-S1 sacdp as well. I have not wanted to replace them. As far as I am concerned, it would be ideal for you. Resolution/detail/soundstage are (to me) fantastic. |
@eohtar - sounds like you have a good set of cables overall, and you know where you're weak links are. Yeah, I would look at upgrading the Blue Heaven interconnects. And maybe upgrade the amp power cords to something like Wire World. But enough said. |
