Give it a rest Dave_b!
Please,its getting old...While Dave must be the spokes person for Magnepan,IMO I would venture to say most would agree the offerings from Magico are in a different league!!! |
Hmm,well though I really "do" like the Mini actually,I must admit Maggies are wonderful/well priced designs...but...
having a few friends who has had them over the years,they take up alot of space,and are a difficult product to convince the wife to add to a living room/audio room/"any" room"-:)
So,not to knock anything(since we are all talking about truly fine designs) I personally like a combination plate(just for me,if and when I make a comeback,as in "sell my house"...since my last child is moving out)...
Here's my choice,based on experience and my own intuition...
Ridge Street Audio Sason,with Townshend Ribbon Super Tweters(heard these on a similar silk dome tweeter,and was floored)and "two" supporting JL Audio Fathom 110 subs.Sealed design and bullet fast.
I LOVE the MINI,but this combo can be had for almost half the price,with NO drawbacks....Best thing is a good tube amp can easily drive this.....ONLY my taste!!
Best to all...."almost"! -:) |
I heard all the magico's at my dealer. The V3's are nice but at the price point, ridiculous. Even a piano is tough to squeeze thru box drivers, let alone an orchestra. All you have to do is listen. Remember, I'm not talkin about your fathers Maggies....I'm refering to the 3.6R's(with the re-worked crossovers) and 20.1's. |
Hey Dave b....no disrespect,but I have heard "that" box arguement on "so" many occassions I can't keep up with it!
In today's world,with the type of technology available,it is an "old news" story.A well designed box can be superb!!The Magico stuff is a testament to that...but...
Going further back in time(like the 1990's)the "original" Avalon company(headed by Charles Hanson,now of Ayre)made a speaker called the Ascent MK-II.It was imo,the original Magico(massive sealed cabinet,totally inert,and with amazing external crossovers,not to mention easy load on an amp,and stunning inner detail...."if set up well")and as of last year(when I sold my pair)it was about as good as a speaker got,"based on commensurate room size,and driving it properly",in a givin space.
It was tricky to get just right,but I swear that was "one great speaker".WAY ahead of itself,and those selling it(me included....but I was forced to)had no clue of how much more "it" could get out of a well matched system....."The box thing" was laughably a non issue,as it "is" with Magico and a few other top notch designs around today.
Personally,I like to be open minded,and favor some designs that fly under the radar....until they get a review and Kaboom,the prices go up!
I specifically remember recommending the Mini's to a particular poster(on this thread) about two years ago(just before the BIG reviews)because on paper it seemed superb(which it "is")but the fellow would not show any interest,until the press started to tout it,and it got the rave reviews.Just being a great design was not enough.
"Nothing wrong there,and human nature,I guess".
Yet it's nice to think outside the box(or non box) and consider the fact that there is a load of very fine products out there,if one has good buying instincts.
Boxes can be great!It's up to the mfgr to "do it" properly(but at that level they are expensive).Of course,one can argue for designs like Maggie,Martin Logan or Quad etc,and you'd not get an arguement from me.
I've heard it all,and am very open to anything that works....to my taste -:)
Rather than criticize folks for being a bit contrary,it can also serve as a potential learning experience to "consider" the alternatives.
Then if something seems interesting,take it to another level and check out the website/design objective,and maybe scope out a source for an audition.Makes sense to me,and with today's escalating high end audio prices,the only approach I'll attempt.
Best |
Every speaker has drawbacks and limitations.
Buy/own the design which meets the budget, maintains matrimonial harmony, and maximizes your listening enjoyment.
IMO |
I agree and have owned and enjoyed some very conventional designs. Acoustic instruments just seem to sound a bit more natural and uncompressed through say a planar speaker. It's all relative of course. |
>>11-01-09: Dave_b
Acoustic instruments just seem to sound a bit more natural and uncompressed through say a planar speaker<<
Possibly.
But a bass drum or pipe organ won't.
Every speaker is a trade off of some sort. |
I disagree, Bass drums never sounded so realistic. The lowest frequencies of the pipe organ however, are best handled by dynamic cones. Most of the dynamic capability of my Maggie 3.6R's were unexpected and a complete surprise. Still haven't recieved an answer as to the new crossover's mine have and how much of a difference they are making. Results probably vary greatly relative to the room one is loading with a planar. |
Dave,I had a very talented friend who mega-modded his 3.6's.He did a great job,so I know from where you are coming...still..I've also been quite impressed with a few very well done box designs.
I'm open to anything that works,and while on the subject of boxes,the Magico Mini has superb low freq if correctly loaded in a good/appropriately matched room!
However,like the Maggies they are a tough load,and need horse power.That makes them not the best match for a good mid/low power tube amp,which are the most appealing to me these days.
One reason I am so impressed with the Sasons. |
>>11-01-09: Dave_b
I disagree, Bass drums never sounded so realistic<<
Perhaps you've never heard a live bass drum.
Maggies don't do it well. It's one of their limitations.
Thanks. |
I frequent the orchestra often and I've owned very capable box speakers like Dunlavy SC-V's, Wilson W/P 6's, Dynaudio C4's and B&W 801N's. The 3.6R's with SS amplification delivers a more believable representation of a bass drum for me...impact plus wave propagation and decay. Not overblown, slow or ponderous. Alot of people tweak the life out of their systems and deaden the sound so much it becomes lifeless. Mine are 3.6R's wt new crossovers and not the older 3.6's. |
The title reads " Magico Mini II vs. Magico V2 comparison"...... not what speaker do you think is better than Magico....
I would like to hear more about Magico's line and I am sure others would too. |
Magico speakers are very expensive and completely useless without commensurate electronics, cables and acoustics. You need to hear them and have lot's of money. I have heard them and find them to be good speakers, more French sounding then anything. The older I get the more offensive I find companies that try to overcompensate for inherently flawed designs and then charge the customer a kings ransome for said designs. |
I guess you love a wall of sound with no imaging! MAGICOS ARE WONDERFUL MINI 2, V3, M5 just because you cant afford them dont bad mouth them . Had Maggies years ago now i have a real speaker. What the hell is a French sound DUH!! |
that's nonsense Daveb---i took a BAT integrated to a dealer and it drove the V3s with amplomb. the dealer was even taken back how live the sound was as he had his doubts going in. |
Actually "French Sound" is rather easy to recognize....
EITHER
"anything" by Ravel,Debussy.....preferrably conducted by Andre Cluytens,on a nice early pressing EMI LP......
OR
A hefty serving of Fois Gras,followed by Escargot and heavy Duck in Orange sauce....then....
wait until about 3:00 AM and "VOILA"....
FRENCH SOUND!! -:)
Which ever you prefer is strictly a personal choice! |
If you don't know what a French sound is (ala JM Labs) then you must be new at this game. I didn't say they were bad speakers, just unjustifiable at the price point. By the way, an orchestra is a wall of sound. Close your eyes at a concert and you will understand that instruments project sound in all directions...they don't focus their energy at your head (that is a Hi Fi artifact). So many great speakers are available at a lower price of admission. As I said, it's a bit daft to put so much effort and cost into building a box that you don't want to sound like a box, DUH!! |
"anything" by Ravel,Debussy.....preferrably conducted by Andre Cluytens,on a nice early pressing EMI LP...... ah, Cluytens! Love his Pastoral on EMI - one of the few to rival Boehm. What tube amps besides VAC Phi 300.1 and ARC Ref 210 will drive well the Magico V2 or V3? hybrid Lamm 1.2? |
See, Sirspeedy understands the French:O) |
Dave you argue price. But for many on this site price is no object. Some people have millions of dollars in the bank. Some people race cars, fly planes, or buy houses as hobbies. Thirty grand might be nothing to them but having a GOOD LOOKING and sound speaker might matter.
Also while and orchestra might be a wall of sound (depending on venue), small bands and voice simply are not. Large dipole speakers can make everything have a similar sound stage. Lets not forget that the microphones that record the piece are point source and orchestras only use a few microphones to record at one time. Arguably you need a point source to recreate a point source accurately.
A point source is much easier it integrate into room apposed to a dipole. So while you may be hearing less "box" with magnepan you are hearing more of the larger box (your room), than with a good point source speaker. A good sized room (not too large) with point source near-field listening is almost always the best way to get good sound-stage and imaging because it minimizes room effects. Which bring up back to the advantages of the Magico mini and the SUBJECT OF THE ORIGINAL THREAD.... Magico. |
I understand James63, believe me! I am not a novice and have owned many $100K systems in various homes over the years...most of them box based. For orchestral, planars sound far more natural. Jazz also sounds more continuous and existing in the same space. In addition, my planars have more natural tone across the board..smoother strings, large soundstage, exceptional treble (best in the business), amazing reproduction of overtones and a quikness that adds far more coherency than most any conventional speaker system. Just play a piano piece and anyone who has been around live piano music frequently (that's me) can hear the difference...my 3.6R's give you the whole piano clearly, coherently and with accurate pitch defintion. Even squeezing a Baby Grand through a largish box design can be difficult. But, I will allow you to return to your regularly scheduled insanity with no further interruptions :O) No hard feelings, I remember my first couple pairs of Wilsons and then Dyn's, even my Dunlavy SC-V's etc.. When you want to believe in something bad enough you will...at least for awhile. My biggest pet peeve is that very little work is being done to really advance the state of the art in audio playback...month after month of cover stories featuring another groundbreaking box speaker (not). FYI, the best box speaker I've heard is Avalon with Spectral gear. |
No doubt this has gotten a bit carried away.JM Labs and Magico are only a small sample of "fine sounding" speakers.
French,Smench....Puhleeeze!
I can understand the human element here,but having been in the hobby for 40 years,I've heard it all!!
ALOT of varying great stuff!!If someone pidgeon holes specific designs into "one" category,sadly they have been in this for too short a period...BTW, I am making a generalized statement,without pointing a finger to anyone in particular.
Btw,a GREAT alternative amp for a Magico is the Cary 211 Anniversary Edition....THAT is what a powerful tube amp should look/sound like.No dumb moving parts/fans,and a great circuit!
Best |
>>11-03-09: Sirspeedy
I've heard it all!!<<
No way.
Not a chance.
Nope. |
Hmm,well in this case you are correct Audiofeil,but why be so literal?.....Of course,there could be a hidden agenda...Hmm!
Back to the MINI,and my simple opinion...to get back to topic(partly).
These are truly GREAT speakers!!I'm assuming a buyer is going to put them in a "proper" room.One that is of a size that allows for good "room loading".Mid size and maybe a touch larger,and the "sub" question should not be a factor at all,IMO.
I've heard these speakers do deep/linear bass in a mid size-ish room and with superb impact/dynamics.
When you consider the aesthetic element,and build quality,they rae an amazing design.
I've come to appreciate these new age two way designs.There are a few around(not only the Mini).
When driven well,they simply are NOT there,and are amazingly coherent.This all started(for me)when I first heard the Kharma 3.2's(I think that is the numerical name...but it was the fabulous two way)driven by the Lamm 2.1 amps.
Big designs,though they have their place,just began to look like fossils after exposure to a great two way,like the MINI!!
I did hear the V-2 for a short while,but I guess it's plain Jane look affected my sensibilities.I thought them to be very nice,but also felt the MINI was more coherent....and....
the MINI "does" deep enough and powerful enough bass to not worry me at all.
Still,I am always looking for the "next" Mini type design,at a more affordable price...ya never know-:)
Btw,I'm willing to bet the Clayton M-200's would be an amazing amp on "any" Magico!
In SS amps,it seems that every six months there is some new,rediculously expensive amp that gets a rave review,and suddenly "that" becomes the "it" product for a while.
The Clayton stuff is very well priced,and it's designer is a flat out genius in "circuit" design.
Just my opinions.Nothing more.
|
Why is it that some audiophiles rush to display their ignorance to the entire world so willingly. Dave_b, do you go on Ferrari forums and try to talk the crowd to drive your 1989 Nissan? DO you really think that " squeezing a piano thru box drivers" has anything to do with speaker size? What a moron. But yet, you have an opinion. Go listen to your $400 CD player and be happy. No one here, on this post, is interested in your "homey" set up. You are making a fool of yourself. But that is most likely inevitable. Sorry for the outburst, just a bit annoyed by losers that wants to make a stand for mediocrity. Somehow it always go back to money. If they can't afford it, it must be junk. How pity. Anyone with input on the V2 |
Why does every Magico thread end in a distaster. The brand seems to really polarize people. Dhaan, there are many legit reasons to criticize Dave_B, but putting him down because his system is not expensive enough is hitting 'below-the-belt'.
Magico has really pushed the envelope on speaker pricing, and perhaps that is where the animosity arises. I have pricey equipment, but I can see the value in everything I purchase. I personally do not see the value in Magico, but others may not see the value in what I purchase.
Another silly assertion is that people with some money can just throw their money around indiscriminately. Most people with money work very hard for that money, they spend alot of time researching their purchases, and alot of thought in purchasing things that are worthwhile. I believe alot of people with money are work-aholics, and take little pleasure in things outside of work. If you think there are all of these billionaires who are in their office, smoking cigars and practicing their putts, trying to decide whether to buy another house, boat, plane, or audio system, then you have been reading too much of the New York Times Op-Ed page. |
Maybe you missed my trip down memory lane when I mentioned my ARC referemce setup or the krell Evo rig or any of the other numerous 6 figure setups I've owned. You can call my dealers if you like or maybe my bank account? The older I get the less tolerant I am of overpriced, overhyped audio gear. Perhaps if you were aware of audio's rise and decline over the past 2 decades you would understand a little bit better. Some of the most learned members of the audio community own planars i.e.Maggies and understand fully the squeeze effect I mentioned. People like George Cardas for example, owns maggies. Many of the audio industry people I have dealt with own maggies...they can afford anything, but they choose Magneplanars. Why? Because they sound like music and not like what YOU think music should sound like. Anyway, in the end I sold the million dollar estate, got rid of the Land Rover, cashed in my last foray into mega systems and bought some music making equipment that happened to cost a whole lot less...and it sounds better:O) |
What do Maggies have in common withe the pyrimids there ancient history!!WAKE UP!!! |
Talk about ignorance...there is no hope for the clueless coverstory audiophile. The latest piece of garbage with some new age karma attached to it will sell at least enough overpriced units to keep a company in business for a few years. Ever hear a pair of Bozak B313 speakers circa 1962? If you did you would understand that music reproduction and expense don't always make for a good marriage. Magnepan is not the new kid on the block, so ignorance sets in with the audio of the month club (I know, I was with 'em). The current generation Maggies (like the 3.6R's with the new crossover which none of the fools on this website even talk about) deliver music on such an exhalted level that if it's truly MUSIC you listen to, and not equipment, you would be enthralled. I'm starting to understand J. Gordon Holt's attitude towards the High End in his last few years on this planet...what a bunch of suckers we can be sometimes! My brothers Sansui Model 8 reciever wt Bozak speakers and a Garrard turntable hooked up with "out of the box" wires had more emotional impact than most current generation HiFi kit does today. The theory of relativity will never be "OLD", nor will Darwin's "Theory of Evolution". Magnepan remains viable based on innovation, refinement and passion. I sincerely question whether any of the members on this thread have ever wept during a live performance of Shostakovich's 8th symphony...to do so would indicate an emotional sensibility in harmony with my overall disposition, which is a deep appreciation of music. FYI, pyramids (not pirimids) have stood the test of time. Me thinks Magico will not! |
" but putting him down because his system is not expensive enough is hitting 'below-the-belt'."
And calling us, those who have bought the Magico's, on so called a Magico thread, fools is OK? I am not putting Dave _B down because his system is not expensive, I am putting him down because of his moronic comments on sound reproduction. I also, do not see how Magico is pushing any price envelope on their products. Building really good speakers is expensive. That issue has been beaten to death in these pages. Most here have no real expertise to assess the value of these products, other than how they think it sounds. How "they" think it sound is irrelevant. Case in point Dave _B. The Maggies do nothing for me. I would rather have a $1500 PSB then the Maggies 3.6. Does anyone care? I can also explain objectively why it is. Everyone should care, but some will not bother. Do you think that people like Dave_B, that are trying to " squeeze " a piano via a "box" will get it? |
Maggie 20.1s and Magico Minis were in two of the best dealer systems I have heard in recent years. So were PSB Synchrony and mbl 111. Each sounded different with different primary strengths and I considered each to deliver top notch sound. They also cover a huge price range. Go figure!
Which would I chose assuming budget were no issue? It would probably depend on my mood that particular day. |
It's no wonder concert attendance is at an all time low considering the lack of perspective on these threads. Does everyone have ADD? I listened to the Magico lineup and it sounds just fine. Not worth the price, but fine enough. The sheer fact that you can't even appreciate a Magnepan for what it does speaks volumes. The "fools" comment was directed at the A'Gon members at large, regarding the fact that Magenpan has changed their crossover on the 3.6R and no one even cocks an ear. I am very much aware of many top tier offerings and would at least be provoked enough to ask what the new crossover was about within the context of a comparative discourse, such as has occured here. I am also fully aware of the excessive compulsive build manifest in the Magico speakers. My point was elementary simple..it's still a box and a really expensive one. Talk about not being original, jeez! By the way, your communication skills are less than average, Dhaan. I'm not the one trying to squeeze a piano through a box...you are my friend. |
I am not a fan of box designs in general, but there are certainly many very good ones out there for modest cost (the PSBs I mentioned being one of my recent favs that come to mind). These had my toe tapping for whatever reason perhaps the most of anything I have heard in recent years, so there is something to be said for that.
I suppose I also expect that very expensive designs do something different and innovative to take things to an even higher level somehow in general to justify the cost.
Having said that, the Magico Minis do seem to at least be the nth degree in monitor design to help justify the nth degree of cost, so there is something to be said for that.
I generally tend to like most box-style monitors better than most similar floorstanders, but that's just me. |
Dave- there is no right and wrong. we get it, you like planars. other of us don't. but harping on people that they are wrong is really poor taste.
and the Magicos may be the best speaker i've ever heard--and that includes stats and planars. are they at a lofty price range? sure, but they do deliver the goods.
value is in the eye of the beholder. |
"and the Magicos may be the best speaker i've ever heard--and that includes stats and planars. "
YEs, I believe they are indeed about as good as they come in most every regard save perhaps absolute low end extension and muscle.
Other monitor designs might come darn close but I do not know if any could flat out beat them. |
I didn't wish to harp on anyone per se, but only to shake the percieved paradigm a bit as it relates to speakers in general. Emotion and passion are too often missing from our complacent exchanges. Choir practice can get boring, don't you think? I CAN appreciate Magico and even respect AW for his work...I just feel that the last thing we need is another high priced box! Where is the innovation? Great leaps in technology have occured only so often throughout the course of human existence. Magnepan was one of those leaps and should be appreciated as such. MBL comes to mind as well...anyone recall Plasmatronics? |
"Where is the innovation?"
In the case of the Magico Mini, its in effectively taking a more conventional approach to the nth degree possible and charging accordingly, FBOFW. |
Also, the Magico Mini is probably most popular in areas where living quarters are tight, like NYC.
It is innovative in the sense of delivering top notch sound to the nth degree out of a relatively compact and in-obtrusive package that can fit in tighter quarters easier perhaps than larger designs (including Maggies).
I can't say how the V2s compare to other designs in this regard. |
Thanks guys, for some straight forward discussiion. I didn't really want to start a pissing match. It just get's me fired up when certain principles are ignored and or talked around. one of my favorite small footprint box designs are the Totem Forests and Manni 2 Sig's. Enjoy the joys of audio:O) |
OK,WHEW!!!...Only on Audiogon,I swear!
Back to the Magico Mini,and I "don't" own one(yet I am a HUGE fan of "many" fine designs...the Maggies are one,btw)!!!
The one thing I found simply amazing about the MINI was it's fabulous ability to properly voice the upper midrange.This is not as easy as one thinks,especially when playing full blown orchestral music....loud!!
Here is a simple two way(overbuilt for a good reason)that must allow that fantastic tweeter to go down far enough to beautifully blend with an amazing mid/woofer(which must surely go up a good bit higher in freq than many competitors designs.Here is where the "magic" is found...for me.
I've heard many LP's and Cd's on the system with the Mini,and was always able to easily pick out the subtle inner most details and textures in the upper mid area,which are not all that easy to "do" at "volume",without graining up,or falling apart,or losing the "meat" of a harmonic!It sustains a wonderful sense of air,and space....I admit these are just my own hot buttons!
The drivers are fabulous!!
This is an often over looked area of "hobbyist" discussion,because(as seen here) so many folks get SO stupidly caught up with bass or loudness,or something else is better(and sometimes it's true...so what?).
This thread has plummeted to the rediculous(I've been responsible for those kinds too,so I'm not all that innocent)and on the "Musical instrument" websites where I spend most of my time these days,the thread would have been shut down!
Anyway,from my "call it" limited experience, of 40 years,and loving alot of stuff,I can truly say that there is too much wealth of great components in "any" category these days.
Each person is entitled to his/her personal taste,though some folks may be rather limited in allowance for the difference in what they are used to...No problem from me....these days!
In this case the Mini is the subject of discussion and it is a "great" design,imo.
Yes,it may be best in "somewhat" tight quarters(not as tight as you'd think)but the speaker goes DEEP and POWERFUL!!!!
Not my fault if someone is not driving it well,or has a lousey room.Don't blame the speaker!!
In the hobbyist's room where I heard it,and helped set it up it did "everything"!!
Does not take up much space.Looks beautiful.Fabulous build quality...what more could one want,other than a low price?
I most likely will rationalize my own personal choice when the time comes,now that I've sold my system,due to poor mfgr service of too many components,an upcoming wedding of my daughter and poor economy,and "not" wishing to cut my employees' salaries(yet,my choice will still be a great design....to me)but that will take "nothing" away from the MINI!!
Good luck to those owning a Magico design.You are very fortunate,and for those owning "whatever",as long as you are happy,who cares what some "stranger" on a web-site thinks? |
