Manly Steelhead - any downside??

I have paired my Manley Steelhead driving a pair of Pass 160.8s to my Avalons. After (1) week; my impressions are: Great pairing! Well balanced top to bottom, midrange to die for, superb imaging, DEAD QUIET!!!!  Bass control is the best and feel no need for a subwoofer. My room is pressurized at low, med, HIGH volumes. Missing that last bit of palpable imaging and air that tube amps could bring but will keep Dead Quiet and bass control !! Will be ordering some Siemens, Amperex, Tung Sol to do my (1st) tube rolling. I do not miss the Hyper Detail of my Spectral system. All the details are still there; Just more natural. No Fatigue!! Best equipment change that I have made in years. Even 26yr old JVC, CD player sounds great through the (1) line input - Only if I leave it on 24/7. Works for me though. Any Steelhead owners that have rolled tubes ; I am open and would appreciate all advice. Thanks

Lewm, thank you for the reply!  Purely based on reading of reviews and posts, my speculation actually matches your ranking of the 3 units.

 

It is just too bad that Atma-sphere doesn't have any agent in Hong Kong, I would love to have an audition!

The Kong, Before having done any modifications or tube rolling with the Steelhead, I would rank those 3 as follows: MP1>Steelhead>Janus.  This is my Janus with upgraded coupling capacitors (using V Caps and polystyrene film and foil output capacitors on both the line and phono stages).  The stock capacitors in the standard non-Signature Janus really drag down its potential, IMO.  My MP1 is not stock, either.  My only problem with it is that one of the modifications I performed was to replace the bottom tube(s) in the phono input dual-differential cascode with a bipolar transistor, as used by Allen Wright in his RTP3C.  This gives the phono stage so much gain that it is unusable with all except very LOMC cartridges.  Not a bad problem to have, but I cannot run it with MM cartridges.  The Steelhead sounds very good with MMs in my basement system, as is.

Noromance, 6 Moons reviews are among the most unbelievable reviews to be found on-line, IMO, but I will take a look.  There are several other reviews or posts on Audiogon claiming that this or that phono stage is also superior to the Steelhead; I don't let stuff like that faze me. The TEAD is solid state, is it not?  I am still waiting to fall in love with any solid state phono stage.  Many are "very good", to my ears, but all so far fail to reach that juicy musical Nirvana I perpetually seek.  

I happen to have a stash of 6900s, but I use them in my amplifiers, two per chassis, and I am loathe to further diminish my supply.  However, in the past I had come to believe that 5687s (the parent of the 6900) can sound just as good in audio applications.  The 6900s are needed if you're building a guided missile, in 1965.

6 moons review online comparing Steelhead with Tom Evans Audio Design Groove+ makes an interesting read. The jist of it that the TEAD blows the SH away.

Hi Lewm, can you give a brief comparison between the Steelhead and the phono sections of your Atma-sphere MP1 and the Aesthetix Janus?

 

I am using the Aesthetix IO and thinking of getting an additional phonostage / preamp, the Steelhead and MP1 are on my short list.

 

Thanks!

Thanks to Nkonor for reviving this thread.  I bought a Steelhead just a few months ago, and so far I quite like it. My gripes would be as follows:
(1) Input resistance choices for MM.  The MM input offers 47K ohms and then a series of very much lower resistances that are totally irrelevant for MM cartridges.  I do realize that the optional low (under 1000R) input resistances are actually for using MC cartridges through the MM inputs, if one wants to bypass the built-in autoformers that are in the circuit path if you use the MC inputs, but still...  
(2) I was rather surprised to read that nkonor prefers using the Steelhead as a full preamplifier rather than feeding its output to his Spectral preamplifier, since most others have reported that it sounds best as a phono stage.  I too am using mine as a full function preamplifier, and I agree with others that it is not at all lean in sound quality.  In that regard, the topology of the White Cathode Follower output circuit uses a lot of capacitance (30uF) and a low value shunt resistor (10K).  This is to ameliorate problems related to using high capacitance interconnects.  However, I cannot believe it would not sound better with a lower value capacitance (e.g., 3 or 4uF) and a larger shunt resistor (100K ohms).  The latter combo of C and R would result in the exact same bass cut-off, and I am going to try it.  Lower coupling C should sound better. Maybe this is why others report that the Steelhead sounds best as a phono stage, because if you take the output ahead of the "line stage" section, you avoid this possibly suboptimal output circuit.  (I do understand why Manley may have chosen the values for R and C; you never know what folks might use as cables and what downstream equipment they might expect the Steelhead to drive.)  There's more to this stuff than rolling tubes.

Just found this thread. Have had my Steelhead since '07. But just hearing how great it really is! Always had to run it through My Spectral preamp to drive Spectral amps. Am now letting go of Spectral. Using Steelhead to drive a pair of Forte' model 7 monos. WOW! Not enough power to drive my Avalons; Hope to try a pair of Pass 160.8s soon. There is a lot of tube info in this thread that I will try to sort through but I would appreciate if someone would spell out the tubes to really get and phone# to source them? Thanks

Holy thread revival- Batman!

I just got a new Tron Seven phono stage after talking with at least one other Tron owner who had a Steelhead, but then Auditioned the Tron Seven, and sold the STeelhead. He thought the Tron was far superior.

However it doesn't have any adjustability like the STeelhead (nor can it be used as a linestage or direct to amps. You choose the gain 60, or 70db and loading when ordering.

it's $4000 US.

Hi,
any more inputs to Steelhead??
I am using a XV-1s on a Kuzma Stabi Ref. with Mission Mechanic or Stogi Ref. tonearms, and an old but nice Audio Research SP 10, that is bloomy, smooth, liquid, but not with the ultimate resolution, speed and dynamics.
I am very interested in a Steelhead. Alternative way would be just a little DV P75 MkII or Whest PS 20 with a nice line stage, but the steelhead is more my favorite.
Thanks
Balazs

Greetings everyone, have not seen this thread for awhile. Looks like things have mellowed somewhat...

Sirspeedy, your findings mirror mine exactly with the phono tubes. While I still have not tried the Tele CCa's, the E88CC Teles were very detailed but on the clinical side. The white label Amperex 6922 PQ's are a the best value and would make a good reference set of phono tubes. They work equally well in my Supratek Grange. Whomever is buying Siemens CCa's, be careful. More than one set of faked sets have been sold to unsuspecting audiophiles for big money. When in that price league, talk to Andy or Brendan. Speedy...what 7044 style tube did you wind up with?

Shane, sorry to hear that the Steelhead did not pan out for you in your system. Good luck in your search.

Jtimothya - I actually own the Thor linestage with phono MKII version, which is the newest. Through circumstance, I was able to get it at quite a reduced cost compared to retail. I believe retail is 13k. I did not have the opportunity to demo many products so I had to go on homework and faith. My personality is to always seek out the more obscure, and less written about, products. I like and pull for the little guys, as my entire system attests.

Sorry to include so many buzzwords but the Thor has terrific inner detail and a very wide soundstage. It, combined with the rest of my gear, is very non-fatigueing. Warm, with solid-state detail is how I would put it. It is locked in at 70db which gives off a small amount of tube rush but I attribute that to my 100db speakers. There is a lifetime guaranty aside from tubes and I don't plan to ever change it out. It's ROCK solid. Tapping on the top of the unit is like tapping on top of a 100 pound block of granite.

Downunder - As I mentioned above, the Thor is set at 70db with an added 8db of gain from the linestage section. The owner, Paul Marks, who is a great guy, says the stand-alone phonostage tops the linestage I own. Wow!

Richardmr, jikes the thor is expensive! n$US8490. that is a lot of aussie $.
Looks beautiful thou.
Gain information is conmflicting. specs say 55db MC which would not be enuf to drive my .3 xv-1s, but the printer friendly page has 78db. Big difference!

thanks Nrchy, my choice of lack of does not invalidate the choice and joy the steelhead is bringing to many other music lovers.
Yes, the trials and tribulations of the hi fi hobby. In the last 12 mnths gone from worn out xv-1 to dyna xv-1s and biggest change of all is going from big cj tube mono's to cj SS prem350.
All those changes have changed the systems tonal qualities slightly,tighter better controlled bass, however the SS amp does not have quite the treble delicacy that the old prem8a's had.( no such thing as a free lunch) It is still SOTA SS sound, but does not sound like tube treble. If I still had the prem8's I would have like the steelhead more.

Interestly I just borrowed an ARC SP-8 from a mate and using his phono section, and it sounds great. makes me wonder how much hi fi has improved in the last 20 years. Even the P-75 I am using sounds close enuf to the Pass Xono and steelhead, that unless you have the money it does seem hard to justify the expense.

I am going to listen to a sutherland and ARC PH-5 in the next couple of weeks - both are supposed to be very musical - so we will see what happens. I can if needed go back to the XONO, but I think I am looking for a little more sofistication.

Tim, I did have the ACT 2 in the system for about a month. Sounds fantastic. compared to the VTL 7.5 it just sounds different. the cj is a little more forward and direct, the bass is a little more obvious, however the VTL just sounds a bit more luxurious. the cj maybe sounds a little coarser in the upper mids, however on the other hand the VTL could be seen as a little less direct. the VTL has better ergonomics no doubt.
BTW, I am thinking about cj phono with SUT like the inbuilt jensen's or Bent audio Mu as well, but the controversy of SUT or no SUT is amazing.

At the time I was looking at changing due to a noise/gain issue between the high gain VTL and high gain cj. Now I have found fantastic attenuators from Endler, that has solved any issues I had with the 7.5.
Tim, I could quite easily live with both - both sound fantastic but different.

cheers Shane

Richard - I agree, Thor makes good stuff. I haven't heard the phonostage. Would you mind offering your experience with it? TIA

Downunder, there is no piece of gear that is right for everyone. I applaud you for giving the Steelhead a good audition and reaching a well reasoned conclussion. Too bad more people don't function the same way.

Lamm LP2, if you don't have a really low-output cartridge (it only has 57db of gain), might be more along those lines, or sell the phono and line stage and get a Jadis JP80MC, put some nice NOS Amperex BBs or Telefunken Ccas in the phono section and prepare to be seduced by the sound. Quite frankly, though, the Pass is a good unit, it is not easy to beat.

I have owned an Art Audio Vinyl 1 phonostage and currently have a Thor. Both tube. The Vinyl 1 is terrific for any price and it goes for about 2.3k. It is quite warm and welcoming without losing detail. The soundstage is particularly deep. It is amazingly quiet. Really quiet. I would look into it.

The Thor is an improvement in all respects but quite a bit more $. More than the Steelhead. I'm a big fan of Thor.

Yikes - I was hoping that fishy would work for you. Warmer... hmmm ... there's the Lamm LP2, and, if you can do balanced, the Bat vk10SE. I'd really like to give the Lamm a try myself.

I keep hoping CJ will do a new phono stage w/ their teflon caps, but not sure they see the market for such. Btw, didja ever get an ACT2 in house?

Hey guys, after living with the steelhead for a week I decided not to pull the trigger. For me and my tastes it was SOTA in bass, upper bass/lower mid texture, quieter than the Pass Xono, but ultimately I did not get into its slightly forward matter of fact upper mids and treble. It was crystal clean, but did not have enough meat on the bone for me and was ultimately fatiguing.
I did change the sovtec 6922's to JJ/tesla and that was better, but overall I didn;t want to listen to it enough to justify the steep price of admission.

guess this is why there are sooo many hi fi brands out there - everyone has different tastes and bias's.

Looks like I need a slightly warmer phono stage -

any idea's guys?

thanks Tim, I have seen that web site, but $325 is a lot to pay for a set of tubes!.

Vetterone indicated he bought his amperex 6922 tubes for $40 bucks.

that is where I would like to shop if he will give up his source:)

Vetterone,I owe it to you to keep this brief,yet,hopefully interesting.
My friend and myself have spent a good part of winter 2004/5 trying out the vast majority of phono tubes.This actually ended in June 2006.We tried the Amperex 6922 White labels PQ- which were fabulous.We tried Ediswan 6922 and 7308,also fabulous.All tubes were tested as ULTRA low noise.

We did try Teles,mega bucks,BTW--and were not real happy with these.A bit too lean for our taste.Also tried was Amperex 7308,very nice.A bit soft.In all honesty,and in similarity to your own findings,we got our hands on some KILLER low noise Siemens CCa's,which cost dearly,and these were definitely the best we've had in our phono sections.These tubes,to us,were so good that we may end our quest here,though I may still spring for a set of "Pinched Waisted Amperex".I don't think I can hold out, without at least trying these.ALL tubes had really distinctively different sounding signatures,as you must know.This is really a great way to voice a system to a specific taste,though many manufacturers won't let on to how effective NOS tubes can really be.

BTW-the guy "SAM" who sells on Audiogon,is very reliable,and seemingly honest.

Best regards!

PQ 6922 white labels?
www.tubeworld.com

A little pricey, but always top quality, Brendan's tubes are exactly as he describes them.

Steve, Where would one get a set of Amperex white label PQ 6922's??.

R there any current production tubes that are better than the stk tubes?.

cheers Shane

Downunder...I am so glad you like what you are hearing. It will smooth out somewhat with more hours. A bigger change will happen when you change the 6922 tubes. I have tried many tubes but not the Tele CCa's yet. I will take Brian's advice and try these too. I have, however, tried Tele EC88's and E88CC's as well as half a dozen other in the 6922 family. My experence with the Siemens CCa has not been anything but great. They are my favorite as of now. For a lot less money, a set of Amperex white lable PQ 6922's will sound smooth, not hamper the details and let the sound flow in a very musical way.

Another thing I have tried is placing a small amount of Stillpoints ERS material around the caps. Too much tends to kil the life of the music but a little bit ( a square inch on each side) attached to the case in the area of the caps adds to the clarity and articulation that I get when I listen.

Please keep us posted on what you experience...

Steve

I just received the brand spanking new steelhead from the distributor and finished playing three LP's. New Order's latest LP "waiting for the sirens call", New Order "Brotherhood" and 1st Dire Straits album.

WOW! It sounds great straight from the box (well 30 minutes after switch on:). Sometimes when you plug something in it just sounds right - well the steelhead is one of those piece's of equipment.

The steelhead has great bass weight and drive, that unmistakeable tube bloom/meat on the bones(or whatever one wants to call it) in the upper bass,lower mid's and it actaually does PRAT, like the best naim equipment.
If it continues to get better over the next few days - it ain't going back!.
After many years and quite a few phono stages either owned or at home for demo's - namely Naim prefix, fm acoustics 122, cj prem 15, CAT internal phono, Aesthetix IO & rhea, ayre P5x,herron phono and finally the very nice Pass Xono. the steelhead just on 3 records has quite easily bested these nice phono stages buy making the records like good music. I guess sometimes money does buy a better sounding product.

thanks to all you goner's that gave me your insights to how it sounded in your systems from this thread.

back to listening to the steelhead and music!

Downunder, check with Vetterone when he gets home. He has been using the Steelhead for a while, and with some tube upgrades he is quite taken with it. Even more so than some well regarded and more expensive units.

FWIW I'm planning to sell my Klyne and Pass Labs in spring to get the Steelhead. Don't buy the one I want!

Mikey. It is yourself and other reviewers that enable guys like me outside the US to know what is available and what might take our fancy. I am looking forward to hearing the steelhead and if I like it to power up my old Linn.

Downunder - I'd recommend Telefunken CCa's if you can find some. They have a certain sonic purity which is great for phono applications. Before the Telefunken's I had the early Siemens CCa's which are "highly regarded" and found them screechy. Side by side, the Telefunken CCa's rule.

Now.. the trick is to find a good replacement for the harsh sounding 7044's.

Not really. It's my reference, and has been for a few years now. There are a few other great ones worth auditioning like the BATVK 10SE, but the Manley's flexibility can't be beat. I use the stock tubes.

Gents. Are there any current production 6922's that improve the sound compared to the Steelhead stk 6922's??

Dear Nrchy: I don't have any audio store.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Only the very best and that's because they say so. Don't argue or you'll be asked to leave.

Raul - what gear do you sell in your store?

Dear Downunder: I think that the best for you is to enjoy it. Best wishes.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

I run the Steelhead through the transformers and prefer the MC transformer input sound quality over the MM. I find with my cartridge that the transformer coupled sound is silky and very enchanting. However, I think that Michael Fremer in his review also preferred the Steelhead through the MM inputs. So this may be a matter of taste/ cartridge/ synergy. However, how many phono stages even give you the option of going transformer/tube or all tube (or all tube/jfet if you prefer)?

Please don't ask him questions. It only results in a scolding and/or lecture. Just tell him he's right and say thanks.

Raul. I don't own a steelhead, hence all my questions. I think it is instructive and a bit of fun getting the thoughts of fellow music lovers both positive and negative. Including your own :)
Ultimately when I get the opportunity to listen to the steelhead I will make up my own mind, at this price it should sound better than any other phono stage I have owned or listened to.

Can't comment about the RIAA curve deviation - do all tube phono stages deviate that much or perhaps manley are just being honest :) Does not seem to make the unit sound any worse.
They do state they have accurate "4-corner" riaa equalisation which covers all the 4 time constants of 3180, 318, 75 microseconds and 3.2us, which the say most phono stages ignore which gives flat response to about 50khz. Not sure exactly what this means, pewrhaps someone else could expand.

Dear Vetterone: I never say nothing against you: ever.

Like Frank you are not ( fortunatelly ) a " member's club ".

About the SUT, Cyncy Bob already post an answer. So it is not only my opinion, it is an owner opinion and it will be very educative is you can post what you think about using the autoformers in the Steelhead against the MM stage: do you agree with Cyncy Bob ?

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Shane, I bought my Steelhead new, and I found that it settled in very quickly. It bested my Lamm LP2 right out of the box. The changes in the sound with additional run-in were subtle.

I am also using XV-1s to pair with the Steelhead and loading at 50 ohms. However, I am running it direct to the amplifiers. I find the sound very pure and transparent. I do also find that loading at 47k slightly reduces the bass. It is hard to go wrong with this phono stage given you can dial in your cartridge the way you want it. It is also as quiet as the Whest Audio Ps.20 phono stage I used before. I don't know the downside except the cost.

Bob, I have never found loading at 47k to reduce bass, but you are correct you do get more air in the high frequencies. As I said it has depended on the phono stage. Prior to that I used to have tube monoblock's coupled with hard to drive mahler speakers a little too close to the wall giving it a slightly boomy character - got that licked now with my ss cj amp a little tighter in the bass and able to drive the mahlers better and have moved out from the back wall a little more.
Looks as thou MM input might be best for the XV-1s and MC for my fun TT.

Vetterone, thanks for the update. Sounds like it is a lot quieter than the rhea which just frustrated me. Also given the large Floyd back drop you must like loud rock music! rock on.
I'll listen to the steelhead with standard tubes - it should give me most of what it does, NOS should just be icing on the cake.

How many hours does it take before the unit is sounding sweet?

Sounds like Raul may not heard the steelhead after all, just summarising a set of audio urban legends and applying them as fact :>)

Now I can't wait for the unit to come in for listen!

cheers Shane

Downunder, the Steelhead is MUCH quieter, slightly more dynamic,has more body to the notes and grabs the bass notes by the shorthairs and does not let go, compared to the Rhea anyway. And, except for the noise, I liked the Rhea a lot. The Steelhead is just in another league.

I run my XV-1s at 100 ohms. Tried 50 ohms, and on the records I listened to, it was a little too subdued on the top, but as Bob said, it was a subtle difference. Even a 500 ohm setting was not bad, 100 just seems best to me. I also run through the MM section w/ a 60 db gain setting. Again Bob's description of the differences between MM & MC were spot on with my experience.

As far as tubes, I spent about $100 bucks for all six tubes and that compliment of tubes was only slightly bested by a pair of $300 NOS Siemens CCa's. If I had to do it over, I would not have bought the CCa's and stuck with the $40 Amperex 6922's.

Oops...sorry guys, I forgot, you better ignore my thoughts on bass. Raul told me today on another thread that I don't know what real bass is because I like the ZYX UNIverse cart. In fact, did he tell me here that the Steelhead will sound severe and colored (is that PC?), the step ups will degrade the sound and since it has tubes it will be too noisey? I think he did say that! You better ignore everything I said about the Steelhead since I must not know what the hell I am talking about. I think all of us Audiogoners should get down on our knees and thank the Lord that we have such an omniscient member such as Raul that can lead us mere mortals through this maze of stereo gear. Thank you so much Raul!

.
So Raul, Have you ever had a Manley Steelhead in your system or are you giving advice based on the specs you read and your disdain for anything with tubes ?
.
Here you go again, out on your mission to mis-inform the public.
.

Dear Wc65mustang: +++++ " I give up " +++++, remember your post?

I was right with my answer to you that time. I knew your bad intention against me and your today post confirm it.

Keep laughing I think is the best and the only thing you can do.

+++++ " I for one take no stock in anything he says and read them for the entertainment content. " +++++

Tks for read me, I know for sure that you are learning.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Shane: Tks for your answer. Now I understand what you mean about.
Btw, what you are asking: " makes your "non audiophile" records sound like shit. " " but it is the way a phono stage treats the not so good recordings and makes them enjoyable and removes the equipment from the equation (as much as possible) is what turms me on, " ,
is and ideal way to go: a phonopreamp where any thing go through it sound well, this is fine but not realistic.

I respect your opinion but I prefer a phonopreamp that tell me what the cartridge " take " from the LP: nothing more nothing less, an unfortunatelly the bad recording/mastered LP's will be sound bad and this " bad sound " is the true sound: this is what I'm looking for always.

About the autoformers: Cincy Bob already post about.

+++++ " I am aware of tube noise, " +++++

All te tubes are noisy by nature. As a fact the Steelhead is less noisy because in reality it is not a 100% tube unit: it use a j-fet at the critical first gain stage, so it is a hybrid design.

Unfortunatelly I never had the opportunity to heard the Steelhead in my system. I heard it at least in six different times: four with audio dealers and two times in audio systems that I know very well.

Now, the RIAA eq. deviation issue is a real problem on the Steelhead and at that price ( in my opinion ) is a high concern for every one.

I know that you and other Steelhead owners are satisfied with its performance and that kind of attitude don't help you and don't help the music, why? : because if the manufacturer always read that the Steelhead is a top performer he don't do nothing for an improvement in the faulty RIAA eq deviation. I think that every of us " music lovers " deserve more than what many manufacturers choose to give us through their audio devices.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Shane, the specifications of the XV-1s cartridge would indicate that the upper end of the range for optimal impedance loading would likely not exceed 200 ohms. Loading the cartridge at 47k ohms should tend to emphasize the treble frequencies and attenuate the bass frequencies. Is it possible that you gravitated to the higher loading value in order to compensate for something else in your system that is leaning the sound of your system toward a dark or bass-heavy character?

Interesting Bob. I'll start off at 100 ohm's and work from there.

Strange thou that with my previous two phono stages the cj prem 15 and Pass Xono, both sounded better in my system loaded at 47k. I have been using the XV-1 and now s for the last 5 years or so - luv the sound of it.

The rhea I have just tried liked 125 ohms better and the ayre P5x back at 47k.
I hope the steelhead works out as I would like to get my old Linn lp12 up and running again with a more reasonably priced cartridge like the Denon 103 for some fun listening.

cheers Shane

Shane, I am running the Manley Steelhead with a Dynavector XV-1s cartridge. The XV-1s pairs very well with this phono stage. (Given the flexibility of this phono stage, I am hard-pressed to name a cartridge that does not pair well.) You will find that you have the flexibility of running your cartridge into either the MM section or the MC section of the Steelhead.

I am running the XV-1s into the MM section of the Steelhead with 55dB of gain. I find that the sound is a bit more immediate and transparent through the MM section than it is when run through the step-up transformer, but the difference is subtle.

As for impedance loading, I have found that the 100 ohm setting is optimal with most LPs in my system. However, if a recording tends to be bright, I find that the 50 ohm setting sometimes results in better tonal balance. Perhaps the ideal impedance setting is somewhere in between these two values. FYI, the U.S. Dynavector importer tells me that most XV-1s owners are loading the cartridge somewhere between 30 ohms and 100 ohms.

Nrchy, If the steelhead is quieter than the Xonon that would be great!. I have just sold the Xono( great phono stage!), hence looking for an other phono stage.
I am listening to the Ayre-P5x at the moment at it sounds very very good, especially at the price and has a more pure sound than the Xono, better bass control but is a little softer on top.