New streamer or dac?

#1 with a bullet.

@bikeboy52 Aurender make fantastic products and from a convenience standpoint they are super easy to operate and even internet radio sounds great.

Where they do excel is playing back ripped music SQ is superb and streaming is state of the art.

They'll sound good with less expensive DACs so put most of your budget into the Aurender. The N100, N20 and N30 are their latest models. N20 is the best value and AES/EBU sounds better than USB.

Whatever you decide audition everything first with your own music.

Enjoying my Aurender

Considering something as simple as a Raspberry Pi or Intel NUC can be used as a streamer, I believe the quality of the DAC is more important. A two box solution also allows for more versatility and upgradability.

I would upgrade your DAC first, then the USB cable from the streamer to the DAC, after that the ethernet cable to the streamer and, finally, the streamer. The past couple years I've been messing around with my digital front-end and, in hindsight, that's the order I should have taken.  Basically, build it around the DAC. 

Definitely a Dac upgrade is the way to go for an immediate upgrade in SQ.

Thanks Sonic 79 snd sbayne ,Im going to take your advice,looking at dacs right now,lots to choose from.

That's what I said.

Find a few that you can free audition.

Sorry Fuzztone , much appreciated.

@bikeboy52 What’s your budget?  I built an analog system then tried digital and enjoy the convenience.  I started with the Node 2i

And when I upgraded I looked at streamer/dac versus separates and I’ve seen significant improvement from the Node 2i to a Moon 280D with is $3k.

Folks argue they must be separate for upgrading and many audio manufacturers take pride in loyal customers and design product to be upgraded.

Depending on your analog set you will notice differences in the sound stage and dynamics in analog from digital.  Both can be enjoyable - enjoy the journey.

Hi @bikeboy52 : what is your DAC right now?

I would not  strap myself with Tidal that MQA is no improvement in fact it’s part compressed and many dac companies refuse to be extorted with $$ big licensing fees, QObuz   IMO better for that reason alone ,plus it sounds good.

 Myself have both  dedicated computer and streamer, using uptone audio Ether regen hub cleans the incoming digital signal from router  then the output , bought a Denafrips reclocker which totally cleans, and cleans signal to dac. The dac which I have the New Terminator2 is Excellent ,with reclocker even better and it has dual frequency 45,49 MHz that can sync with reclocker BNC cables  to I2S from reclocker to T2 for purest  signal , a much bigger improvement then even a very good server streamer.

Moon 280d is the perfect solution.  It's both a high end DAC and a high end streamer.  I was running a Blusound Node 2i as a transport feeding into my McIntosh DAC, and the Moon was a major upgrade.  Well worth the money spent, and you actually save when comparing to running a $2k streamer into a $2k DAC.  

Consider the digital end just like the analog end. Each component is critical and must be of equal sound quality… and upstream matters most. If you have a high quality turntable, phono stage in front of your preamp… digital is the same thing (streamer and DAC).

Today’s streamer can perform on the same level as analog… so nearly infinite music for nearly no cost (after initial purchases). Typically it can cost a little bit more to get a digital end to sound as good… although highly variable say 10 - 15% (not by randomly choosing by cost… carefully chosen compatible devices). If you are slowly working towards a better system, get separate DAC and Streamer… skip the CD player… they are on the way out.

So with that in mind. I highly recommend Aurender. I still own two… a budget N100 and their flagship W20SE.. Truly remarkable devices. Your strategy could be to get an integrated streamer, Streamer and DAC… then after a while, get a much better DAC… then in a few years upgrade to a real high end Streamer. Or pick out a high end DAC and streamer at once… more than twice as hard. But like most high end systems…. Research… Research… Research. Happy to help further… but need to know what you got now and what kind of budget you have. But in general, A $25K streamer sounds significantly better than a $10K… which sounds better than a $5K, and a$2.5K, and a $1.25K streamer… same for DACs.

Streamer dac preamp would be my recommendation.  And one that can receive tidal connect. The best way to get the most bits. A streamer dac eliminates the need to convert outdated transmission protocol (spdif,usb,coax) to a bit perfect signal. My understanding is I2S is currently the best protocol for this transmission. I think most Streamer DACs have this built in....  I use PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC MKII with Bridge II, but Cambridge CX always seemed interesting when I was shopping on a more limited budget.

Thanks everyone for your interest. My system is as follows. Prima Luna evo 400 power amp, Prima Luna evo 200 pre amp ,Kanta number two’s.Anolog playback is Rega p6 with Aptheta moving coil run through Gold Note phono pre with its matching linear power supply all that thru Torus power conditioner ,intercnects and cables a mixture of Acustic Zen,Kimber and AQ . No Dac currently just the Denon streamer/ dac combo which doesn’t quite cut it . Budget for the dac would be in the two thousand range. Thanks again for your input.

@pwayland If you are using a PSA DS DAC with built in streaming card you have already done away with the I2s unless you want to connect a CDT by I2s.

There is an advantage to having a streaming card in a DAC, Mola Mola and DCS do this also but I seriously don't believe this setup could compare to a full blown streamer with or without separate DAC.

The jury is out on eliminating "old tech" such as AES/EBU which GENERALLY gives better sound even over I2s and mostly over USB depending on your setup.

The PSA DS upsamples everything to DSD, it's not a bad idea but you can't select individual frequency settings.

@bikeboy52  looks like your cooking up the goods analog source. Sweet man! I'm a pure digital source guy who digs deep into analog Class A amplification and exact phase and time coherent speakers. The goods are DAC streamer to you preamp, unless your streamer can send I2S protocol to your DAC. Any other interface to the DAC will struggle to provide bit perfect input.

Thanks Pwayland ,so I’ll pick up a decent affordable Dac first then phase two the streamer.This would seem to be in your wheelhouse,whatta see as my unit staying in line with my existing system? 

Does seem like theres a distinct advantage to buying a single box unit though if it eliminates the interface problem. Is that not so?

@pwayland Any other interface to the DAC will struggle to provide bit perfect input.

I think I know what you mean but the normal way to use "bit perfect" just means that all bits are transferred and all digital interfaces manages that. I2S might be better with timing issues.

I think the worst thing with a single box is that streaming services are still changed and updated and some hifi companies may not be the best at updating software going forward. What if Qubuz and Tidal goes out of business and a new service takes their place?

This is my main reason to prefer a 2-box solution, especially using a computer or RaspberryPi. It might also work with Roon support but that costs extra forever.

Nice system, seems well chosen and synergistic. Given your system, an Aurrender A100 I would think appropriate. I am not familiar with what Aurender DACs sound like… my exposure is entirely to just streamers. I would recommend finding a place you can listen to one. If I were doing it I would follow the two box strategy below.

‘Alternatively a Schiit Yggdrasil DAC is outstanding for the money. I have experience with the Yggdrasil and the Schiit Gungnir multibit. For streamer an Aurender N100 (to reduce cost, buy used).

As I think you have already found… going cheap is a great way to be dissatisfied with the sound. I would save up if required. Get the DAC first and you could use your Denton as streamer only until you can afford the streamer. 

Going through a couple of interactions I decided to commit to Roon as my meta data manager and interface to my personal library, Qobuz and a couple of background Sonos systems.  Going that route I found my internet connection was intermittent at best when running the Roon core on my MacBook Air.  So If that is your end game I would also consider getting a dedicated music server.  I ended up with a SGC sonicTransporter i5 with a 4 tb ssd.  I migrated my music collection to the drive and did not look back.  As far as DAC and / or streamer I decided on a combined unit to eliminate interconnects, power cables and self space needs.  In my case I went with a Bricasti M3 with the network card option.  There are a lot of great solutions and as always listening is the only way to find what works for you.  After going through a few DAC streamer combinations I decided to go with a vendor who really knows networking.  I find the professional recording studio hardware vendors to be the best.  Again there are a number of great options.  Do your research and going the "slightly" used route is a pretty good option.  Sorry for running on.

@bikeboy52, All I can offer with regards to a recommendation is sharing my process. I did recently buy my PS Audio Perfect Wave with Bridge II network card and in doing so I spent a lot of time educating myself on the technology and feel I made a good choice where I arrived. I am biased toward PS Audio partly because they are local for me. I purchased it from The Music Room for under $2k. I also really like iFi Zen stream and V2 DAC which I use in my studio. The Zen Stream is also compatible with Tidal connect which I believe to be key. Tidal has a list of compatible devices if you check the tidal connect button. I believe the bridge II card could be rebranded and possibly tweaked Conversdigital because it uses mconnect, but not sure.

@lordmelton , Yes you would be correct if I had a PSA DS with bridge II. I actually have the Perfect Wave MkII with bridge II, which does not process DSD, so my card is using the I2S communication protocol. For $3k, I can upgrade my PW with a kit including new boards to fully convert it to a DS. I would postulate that feeding DSD directly from the streamer card has got to be the best solution. It is interesting to hear your experience with AES/EBU. I have read I2S is not great over any length of cable, so that could explain. I my mind, the card is just a more eloquent solution but as you say, it all depends on your setup... 

Ok here my suggestion to you and someone mention already about Denafrips Dac. Here's my setup for streaming.

Aurender N100h (Streamer) USB out to Denafrips Iris DDC get a better USB

Denafrips Iris DDC to Pontus ii using i2s cable also get a better i2s don't be  cheap in cable if you want hear good details,  soundstage, good base etc. And I also I change all my Power cable.

Good luck and I hope you can get a good advice or help here.

Thanks again everyone ,really interesting thread lotta info for me to dig into.I would love to be able to go relax in a comfy chair and A/B compare the Schiit the Denifrips and maybe something thats double or even triple in price to those two units. There’s just no place to do that in my area especially with brands like those ,Im sure you all have the same problem. I do however feel that info given to me in this forum is extremely valuable  ,nobody’s trying to sell anything right?  Btw I was a little surprised that it took that long to see Denafrips come up ,anybody?? Just sayin, brand gets   great reviews but i dont see many or any on Agon. Thx everyone again!

@pwayland Regarding I2s I really believe it'll be the USB of the future but it hasn't received mainstream support yet. It's mainly PS Audio and the Chi-Fi companies that are in full support.

AES/EBU, provided you have a quality setup it will USUALLY outperform USB. However it'll only support up to 24 bit 192 kHz PCM and single DSD. This covers 99% of what a regular user will encounter but higher sampling rates need to go through USB or I2s.

I've seen many reviews that preferred USB over I2s but that's basically because USB is highly developed whereas I2s is just starting out and it's higher specced too, so I2s brings much promise.

@bikeboy52 One box solutions have been discussed but what is often overlooked is the cost savings in cables. Decent cables are going to cost around $1000+

DAC Power, IC and Digital $3000

Server Power $1000

Pre Amp Power, IC $2000

Power or Integrated amp not included.