Not Thrilled with Vandersteen 2CE Sigs - where is the first place to work on?

Nothing was done in repositioning that can't be done with any other speaker. It's not the long term solution if you are not liking a speaker. Within a week you will adjust to it and you'll be back at the same place again with criticism.

 There are many thin slice ways to affect speakers. That doesn't resolve the larger issues with them. Just because there was a change doesn't mean a particular speaker is anywhere near the potential ideal. This is one of the biggest mistakes that is made continuously. It does set up a sale for the dealer, and if he has put in the time and effort, he deserves that consideration. You would get superior sound moving up the line, so that is another alternative. But, until you get other speakers in there to compare head to head, you have no idea what you're doing. The dealer will push his line, no surprise. 

So, you will be throwing money at it, with an upgrade, new cables, etc. That is an expensive way to learn, but there are not too many other options when one does not have experience. Try to keep it as fun, not frustration. Vandersteen, especially lower end, is a polite speaker that will not offend. Whether it is involving enough over timer you remains to be seen.   :)

@gjinwi

Fantastic to hear. Johnny is a gem of a gentleman, and knows Vandersteen better than most all.

I have the 2CE Sigs, and can tell you, I feel the disparaging descriptions to be misguided. This is all very subjective; what one feels about a particular piece of equipment can always be countered by another who desires, demands, and expects something else. That doesn’t necessarily equate one of being good or bad, just different. And we all may want different things.

For me, at the price point I picked-up my 2CE Sigs at, I doubt most any other can compare. To me, they just sound ‘right’, great tone and timbre, natural, which for me is most important. In addition to great soundstage and dynamics potential. Positioning and placement is the key for any Vandersteen. But once you get that dialed-in, and you like the overall sonics they can provide, (for many many hours of listening at a sitting), they should make you happy and pleased. And, of course, as you improve your front-end, they sound even better. They please me a great deal, and astound me with their capabilities still.

Enjoy

I did a lot of looking around before I bought my Quatros CTs.  One of the key elements is not just the product, but the company behind the product.  With Vandersteen, I found a family company working hard every day to improve their craft.  After reading comments about how Richard may be losing high-frequency hearing, I called Richard to discuss the design process, as this idea that Richard's ears play a big role did not match what I understood as there is a lot of work done in an anechoic chamber.  Most speaker companies don't have an anechoic response measurement and the consistency that it creates.  In this case, 44 years and 8 models of Model 2 speakers.

I learned that Vandersteen speakers have always been Time and Phase Correct and measured flat in frequency response, in contrast to the tipped up highs and booming bass of many other designs.  Over the years, passive components like internal wire, capacitors, resistors, input connectors, and driver technology advancements have revealed more information and transparency. The basic design has not changed, including the newer VLR CT, TREO CT, QUATRO CT, and SEVEN MkII being:  first-order networks, one driver per frequency band above 200Hz, minimum baffle area, pistonic cones and domes, and time alignment. Richard has always referenced his product designs with live vs. recorded evaluations, which is self-correcting for age; besides, Nathan, his son, does all of the anechoic chamber work these days. I found all Vandersteen speakers still measure flat today like they always have, but modern technology does allow them to reveal much more of the recording. The continued effort at Vandersteen is to employ materials as they develop to better the speakers by reducing noise in the products.  The Model 2 may represent the best example. Although aesthetics remain the same, the new model introduced in June represents another improvement in clarity and timbre, while remaining true to music, at least to my ears.  If you have a Vandersteen dealer in the neighborhood, just go in and talk to them.  Most of the dealers, I found, have 30 to 40 years of experience with Vandy.  I see Jonny R posted here.  That is a great place to start.

 Sell them and get the 1Cis -- much better speakers.

I have them both. I’ll take the 2CE’s as my mains all the time, every day. The 1C’s serve as my rears when in HT mode.

Don’t get me wrong, the 1C’s are great speakers as well, (they lead me to the 2’s), but they are not the full range sound you get from the 2C’s. I had to reinstall the 1C’s to my main 2 channel speakers a while back while having one of the 2C’s acoustic couplers repaired, and man-o-man, I missed the 2’s.

I’ll keep the 1C’s just in case I ever have to down-size.

@helomech I’m surprised to hear you say that. I’m not sure the 1ci’s are necessarily better, but I’ve found they work better in my house with small rooms than the 2. 
There is something magical about the 1’s though isn’t there?

I was enchanted by them from my first listen in Johnny R’s back room. He really has them dialed in there.  

The Vandi 2 series tend to dance a lot better when you strip their clothes off, IMO. Just IMO, though. You might feel different. 

One can try it out and see what they get, if they feel it is better, or not. As the speaker was designed with that sock in place. A sock I would not design onto any speaker...... but that (original design time) was back then, and this is now...

Of course speakers sound better when you don't place a barrier in front of the wave launch. This is basic and it is one of the fundamental problems with the Vandersteen line that uses socks. It's also a major problem for the Magnepan line. Paradigm has tried to make sticking a fat perforated plate in front of a driver a positive. Pathetic. 

2’s of that vintage have very precise L pads on the back... but sure you can remove the sock aka grill. The $$$ in the more affordable  Vandy series 1-3 is in a functional non resonant cabinet, awesome components ( including precise matching ) and semi custom drivers with a LOT of trickle down technology. The $ ain’t in veneer. The Treo and up grill is not just a decorative screen but that’s a different thread....
model 1 are a very alluring speaker, work in many smaller rooms w very moderate power , you can see a pair along w many other speakers in my vintage room.
enjoy the music
jim

Teo_audio

If you think a thin layer of double knit polyester fabric one can see through to protect the drivers is a problem then we are in big trouble. Our favorite recordings include protective screens on microphones, pop screens/mic filters for vocals and guitar amps etc. at the source. My experience is that removing the grille assembly does improve the sound of some speakers especially if they are the type where the supporting structure is not integrated with the speaker cabinet but just tacked onto the front. You don’t want to listen to a pair of TREO CT’s with the grille assembly removed.  

JohnnyR 

Enjoy the music !!!! Johnny R is awesome 

@helomech I’m surprised to hear you say that. I’m not sure the 1ci’s are necessarily better, but I’ve found they work better in my house with small rooms than the 2.
There is something magical about the 1’s though isn’t there?

I’ve encountered quite a few who prefer the 1s to the 2s. 

@helomech I am one of them. Just surprised to hear that others agree. 

I owned the 1s and the 2s, and the 1s do not have the flabbiness of the 2s. Why has not the dealer shared that Richard himself used 1s with subs instead of the 2s? At least, that is what my Vandy dealer at the time told me. 

It's pathetic when as significant a shortcoming as the negative impact of a grill cannot be admitted. Instead, irrelevant illustrations, equivocations, etc. are used to downplay it. The fact is, the grill is necessary to allow for a cheaper build, and it is ALWAYS a problem sonically. This is so whether a Magnepan or Vandersteen, both of which I have used/owned, models having permanent grills. Now, I would not own either company's products with permanent grills, as it so degrades sound quality. 

What a ridiculous argument regarding thinness of grills. As though the grills of other competitors are oh, so much worse. Perhaps computer analysis of the fabric thickness in comparison to other brands was done to vest the Vandersteen grills. This is what is called an excuse, diversion. So, the thin, see through grills of the King Sound King III ESL that I reviewed for Dagogo.com and own are of little consequence? If you can see through it, the grill is to be negligible? This is horrid advice, and I counter with; one of the fundamental reasons the 2CE was not great at resolution and definition was the permanent grill. It became obvious when switching to different speakers sans grills that it was a design problem. YMMV, as the say. I suspect some will adamantly disagree. So be it. 

Remember, the goal of some here is to defend the seemingly unimpeachable sound of Vandersteen at all costs. Just like Magnepan. Allowance must be given to dismiss and diminish all claims of serious sound quality issues. No one is allowed to give hard analysis of the shortcomings of the lower end models; they are sacrosanct. Value demands a pass be given to all potential design issues and shortcomings. 

The fact is, you select these lower models and you are assured average HiFi sound. Nice, pleasant, but nowhere near upper end sound. This is to balance some of the ridiculous, fawning enthusiasm completely out of touch with reality as regards the universe of HiFi speaker performance. 

WOW! Why the vitriol?  As a dealer for many years just trying to keep the effect of the grille in perspective. All Vandersteen’s are designed to be listened to with the grills on for what ever reason he chooses. Richard has told seminar attendees that the grills on the lower cost speakers allows him to put more of ones money into the drivers, crossovers and out of sight low diffraction time aligned enclosures. Only he knows if that is a worth while compromise but I can tell you they would not sell without grills because the inside is not finished. Maybe you would make a different choice if you were the designer and outsell him, no one is stopping you.  Many on this forum promote numerous components passionately because that is part of the hobby. Thank goodness not many are as passionately negative and I doubt Richard or Wendel lose any sleep over the fact you won’t own their products. Back to helping audio enthusiast get better sound and enjoyment from their music.
 JohnnyR

JohnnyR, good response, and points well taken. :) Forgive me for coming on too strong. When I argue points in regard to technical aspects of design and system building, I can become intense. I think your reply was on target and well balanced.  

Yes, I am aware of the insides of the speakers and that they are not finished. You make the one defensible argument for the grills; more money put into the internals, and in that Richard is correct, it’s a solid design argument. That can be a defensible decision to select a speaker with a grill. In fact, if I were in a situation where I was forced to use a budget speaker, the lower end Vandys would be high on my list of options for that reason - despite the grill cloth finish. (I hope the community sees that this does not conflict with my previous statement that I would not now use a speaker with a permanent grill).

Thankfully, I do not have to compete in the speaker market! Some of these guys are killing themselves - I know the situation with some smaller speaker makers who do not have the advantage of economy of scale, and it’s might tough. I admire any speaker maker, including Vandersteen and Magnepan, who strive to give a good performance for the dollar. That is never in dispute with me. As someone who was at one time a Mid-Fi hobbyist, I will always be grateful for the option of a HiFi speaker at a good value.

Guys, I have done that comparison of a pair of 2's with covers on and covers removed.  It was in the late 90's at a dealer who had to install new socks for a customer so we started to play.  None of us hear any difference.  Richard knows how to design a top sounding speaker in the price ranges he plays in.  

They aren't everyone's cup to tea though.

I did some bypassing in a 2CE Signature's crossovers. They were using 3 electrolytic capacitors in series to filter out something in the tweeter. I bypassed them with Teflon V-Caps. The caps were .01uf, well, very well within the normal +/- 10% tolerance for capacitors, and the tweeters sounded horrid. I substituted other tweeters, and they sounded fine, so it was definitely a problem with the tweeter they used. When you use 3 electrolytic capacitors in series, you are compensating for quite a problem as normally you just use 1 capacitor. Capacitors of low quality, like most electrolytic capacitors are, are like dound sponges, absorbing detail. Anyway, normally I would suggest upgrading the components in the crossovers, but don't try it in the 2CE Signatures. This may not be true of the original, or any other versions, but the original Signature models had thid issue. 

Here's the thing. Everyone has different preferences where music is concerned. I love to hear differences between cables, I am not at all sure that I could do so with especially older Vandersteens. Some prefer that, Vandersteens are, shall we say, smooth and warm? Lovers of that sound would likely call my system cold and harsh. To me, my system is pretty close to being there. The sound stage is well defined and there are plenty of spatial information, instruments are pin point, I just lack depth of sound stage. Many would dislike that amount of information. Older Vandersteen speakers are a treasure if you like them. If not, keep looking. Don't argue about other people's druthers concerning music. Not all car lovers love old boat Caddys, or old muscle cars, or McClarens. 

I have the 2ci they do sound different from other speakers I had but I would say is is more of a natural, realistic sound with a warm touch. It is all personal preference. Room layout and speakers position are crucial for the these models. I have the 2ci in a small room and I do agree they can open up in a much bigger room but my situation, It is not possible so I have to compensate and fix certain problems. 

 

lous 190 posts 09-11-2023 at 05:15am  I did some bypassing in a 2CE Signature's crossovers. They were using 3 electrolytic capacitors in series to filter out something in the tweeter. I bypassed them with Teflon V-Caps. The caps were .01uf, well, very well within the normal +/- 10% tolerance for capacitors, and the tweeters sounded horrid. I substituted other tweeters, and they sounded fine, so it was definitely a problem with the tweeter they used. When you use 3 electrolytic capacitors in series, you are compensating for quite a problem as normally you just use 1 capacitor. Capacitors of low quality, like most electrolytic capacitors are, are like dound sponges, absorbing detail. Anyway, normally I would suggest upgrading the components in the crossovers, but don't try it in the 2CE Signatures. This may not be true of the original, or any other versions, but the original Signature models had thid issue.   Report this Vandersteen has never in 46 years ever used an electrolytic cap on any tweeter!  Don't know what you bypassed, but they use electrolytics only for resonant peak filters or impedance compensator networks for phase.   The above is directly from Richard.

That Era Vandersteens love Kimber Cable speaker cable. It's a match made in heaven.