That Era Vandersteens love Kimber Cable speaker cable. It's a match made in heaven.
Not Thrilled with Vandersteen 2CE Sigs - where is the first place to work on?
Trying to build up the system this year, bought some Vandy 2CE Sigs. Have the anchors, following instructions for placement, built bass traps and a couple of acoustic panels in my medium-sized but odd-shaped basement listening area - still not thrilled. Using laptop with Tidal and Dragonfly Red - and some stuff sounds GREAT (Steely Dan, SRV, Beck, Dire Straits, Wilco) - but disappointed in a lot of other stuff. Some objective opinions on where my issues might lie? Expectations too high? Hearing the truth of production variations? Running an NAD C272 at 150WPC and an original 1979 APT Holman Pre Amp. Not MAC, Bryston, etc - but was expecting more. Thoughts? Rebuild/recap the APT? Amp upgrade? Where might the low-hanging fruit be?
72 responses Add your response
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I have the 2ci they do sound different from other speakers I had but I would say is is more of a natural, realistic sound with a warm touch. It is all personal preference. Room layout and speakers position are crucial for the these models. I have the 2ci in a small room and I do agree they can open up in a much bigger room but my situation, It is not possible so I have to compensate and fix certain problems. | |
Here's the thing. Everyone has different preferences where music is concerned. I love to hear differences between cables, I am not at all sure that I could do so with especially older Vandersteens. Some prefer that, Vandersteens are, shall we say, smooth and warm? Lovers of that sound would likely call my system cold and harsh. To me, my system is pretty close to being there. The sound stage is well defined and there are plenty of spatial information, instruments are pin point, I just lack depth of sound stage. Many would dislike that amount of information. Older Vandersteen speakers are a treasure if you like them. If not, keep looking. Don't argue about other people's druthers concerning music. Not all car lovers love old boat Caddys, or old muscle cars, or McClarens. | |
I did some bypassing in a 2CE Signature's crossovers. They were using 3 electrolytic capacitors in series to filter out something in the tweeter. I bypassed them with Teflon V-Caps. The caps were .01uf, well, very well within the normal +/- 10% tolerance for capacitors, and the tweeters sounded horrid. I substituted other tweeters, and they sounded fine, so it was definitely a problem with the tweeter they used. When you use 3 electrolytic capacitors in series, you are compensating for quite a problem as normally you just use 1 capacitor. Capacitors of low quality, like most electrolytic capacitors are, are like dound sponges, absorbing detail. Anyway, normally I would suggest upgrading the components in the crossovers, but don't try it in the 2CE Signatures. This may not be true of the original, or any other versions, but the original Signature models had thid issue. | |
Guys, I have done that comparison of a pair of 2's with covers on and covers removed. It was in the late 90's at a dealer who had to install new socks for a customer so we started to play. None of us hear any difference. Richard knows how to design a top sounding speaker in the price ranges he plays in. They aren't everyone's cup to tea though. | |
JohnnyR, good response, and points well taken. :) Forgive me for coming on too strong. When I argue points in regard to technical aspects of design and system building, I can become intense. I think your reply was on target and well balanced. Yes, I am aware of the insides of the speakers and that they are not finished. You make the one defensible argument for the grills; more money put into the internals, and in that Richard is correct, it’s a solid design argument. That can be a defensible decision to select a speaker with a grill. In fact, if I were in a situation where I was forced to use a budget speaker, the lower end Vandys would be high on my list of options for that reason - despite the grill cloth finish. (I hope the community sees that this does not conflict with my previous statement that I would not now use a speaker with a permanent grill). Thankfully, I do not have to compete in the speaker market! Some of these guys are killing themselves - I know the situation with some smaller speaker makers who do not have the advantage of economy of scale, and it’s might tough. I admire any speaker maker, including Vandersteen and Magnepan, who strive to give a good performance for the dollar. That is never in dispute with me. As someone who was at one time a Mid-Fi hobbyist, I will always be grateful for the option of a HiFi speaker at a good value. | |
WOW! Why the vitriol? As a dealer for many years just trying to keep
the effect of the grille in perspective. All Vandersteen’s are designed
to be listened to with the grills on for what ever reason he chooses.
Richard has told seminar attendees that the grills on the lower cost
speakers allows him to put more of ones money into the drivers,
crossovers and out of sight low diffraction time aligned enclosures. Only he knows if that is a worth while compromise but I can
tell you they would not sell without grills because the inside is not
finished. Maybe you would make a different choice if you were the
designer and outsell him, no one is stopping you. Many on this forum
promote numerous components passionately because that is part of the
hobby. Thank goodness not many are as passionately negative and I doubt
Richard or Wendel lose any sleep over the fact you won’t own their
products. Back to helping audio enthusiast get better sound and
enjoyment from their music. JohnnyR | |
I owned the 1s and the 2s, and the 1s do not have the flabbiness of the 2s. Why has not the dealer shared that Richard himself used 1s with subs instead of the 2s? At least, that is what my Vandy dealer at the time told me. It's pathetic when as significant a shortcoming as the negative impact of a grill cannot be admitted. Instead, irrelevant illustrations, equivocations, etc. are used to downplay it. The fact is, the grill is necessary to allow for a cheaper build, and it is ALWAYS a problem sonically. This is so whether a Magnepan or Vandersteen, both of which I have used/owned, models having permanent grills. Now, I would not own either company's products with permanent grills, as it so degrades sound quality. What a ridiculous argument regarding thinness of grills. As though the grills of other competitors are oh, so much worse. Perhaps computer analysis of the fabric thickness in comparison to other brands was done to vest the Vandersteen grills. This is what is called an excuse, diversion. So, the thin, see through grills of the King Sound King III ESL that I reviewed for Dagogo.com and own are of little consequence? If you can see through it, the grill is to be negligible? This is horrid advice, and I counter with; one of the fundamental reasons the 2CE was not great at resolution and definition was the permanent grill. It became obvious when switching to different speakers sans grills that it was a design problem. YMMV, as the say. I suspect some will adamantly disagree. So be it. Remember, the goal of some here is to defend the seemingly unimpeachable sound of Vandersteen at all costs. Just like Magnepan. Allowance must be given to dismiss and diminish all claims of serious sound quality issues. No one is allowed to give hard analysis of the shortcomings of the lower end models; they are sacrosanct. Value demands a pass be given to all potential design issues and shortcomings. The fact is, you select these lower models and you are assured average HiFi sound. Nice, pleasant, but nowhere near upper end sound. This is to balance some of the ridiculous, fawning enthusiasm completely out of touch with reality as regards the universe of HiFi speaker performance. | |
Teo_audio If you think a thin layer of double knit polyester fabric one can see through to protect the drivers is a problem then we are in big trouble. Our favorite recordings include protective screens on microphones, pop screens/mic filters for vocals and guitar amps etc. at the source. My experience is that removing the grille assembly does improve the sound of some speakers especially if they are the type where the supporting structure is not integrated with the speaker cabinet but just tacked onto the front. You don’t want to listen to a pair of TREO CT’s with the grille assembly removed. JohnnyR | |
2’s of that vintage have very precise L pads on the back... but sure you can remove the sock aka grill. The $$$ in the more affordable Vandy series 1-3 is in a functional non resonant cabinet, awesome components ( including precise matching ) and semi custom drivers with a LOT of trickle down technology. The $ ain’t in veneer. The Treo and up grill is not just a decorative screen but that’s a different thread.... model 1 are a very alluring speaker, work in many smaller rooms w very moderate power , you can see a pair along w many other speakers in my vintage room. enjoy the music jim | |
Of course speakers sound better when you don't place a barrier in front of the wave launch. This is basic and it is one of the fundamental problems with the Vandersteen line that uses socks. It's also a major problem for the Magnepan line. Paradigm has tried to make sticking a fat perforated plate in front of a driver a positive. Pathetic. | |
The Vandi 2 series tend to dance a lot better when you strip their clothes off, IMO. Just IMO, though. You might feel different. One can try it out and see what they get, if they feel it is better, or not. As the speaker was designed with that sock in place. A sock I would not design onto any speaker...... but that (original design time) was back then, and this is now... | |
@helomech I’m surprised to hear you say that. I’m not sure the 1ci’s are necessarily better, but I’ve found they work better in my house with small rooms than the 2. There is something magical about the 1’s though isn’t there? I was enchanted by them from my first listen in Johnny R’s back room. He really has them dialed in there. | |
I have them both. I’ll take the 2CE’s as my mains all the time, every day. The 1C’s serve as my rears when in HT mode. Don’t get me wrong, the 1C’s are great speakers as well, (they lead me to the 2’s), but they are not the full range sound you get from the 2C’s. I had to reinstall the 1C’s to my main 2 channel speakers a while back while having one of the 2C’s acoustic couplers repaired, and man-o-man, I missed the 2’s. I’ll keep the 1C’s just in case I ever have to down-size. | |
I did a lot of looking around before I bought my Quatros CTs. One of the key elements is not just the product, but the company behind the product. With Vandersteen, I found a family company working hard every day to improve their craft. After reading comments about how Richard may be losing high-frequency hearing, I called Richard to discuss the design process, as this idea that Richard's ears play a big role did not match what I understood as there is a lot of work done in an anechoic chamber. Most speaker companies don't have an anechoic response measurement and the consistency that it creates. In this case, 44 years and 8 models of Model 2 speakers. I learned that Vandersteen speakers have always been Time and Phase Correct and measured flat in frequency response, in contrast to the tipped up highs and booming bass of many other designs. Over the years, passive components like internal wire, capacitors, resistors, input connectors, and driver technology advancements have revealed more information and transparency. The basic design has not changed, including the newer VLR CT, TREO CT, QUATRO CT, and SEVEN MkII being: first-order networks, one driver per frequency band above 200Hz, minimum baffle area, pistonic cones and domes, and time alignment. Richard has always referenced his product designs with live vs. recorded evaluations, which is self-correcting for age; besides, Nathan, his son, does all of the anechoic chamber work these days. I found all Vandersteen speakers still measure flat today like they always have, but modern technology does allow them to reveal much more of the recording. The continued effort at Vandersteen is to employ materials as they develop to better the speakers by reducing noise in the products. The Model 2 may represent the best example. Although aesthetics remain the same, the new model introduced in June represents another improvement in clarity and timbre, while remaining true to music, at least to my ears. If you have a Vandersteen dealer in the neighborhood, just go in and talk to them. Most of the dealers, I found, have 30 to 40 years of experience with Vandy. I see Jonny R posted here. That is a great place to start. | |
@gjinwi Fantastic to hear. Johnny is a gem of a gentleman, and knows Vandersteen better than most all. I have the 2CE Sigs, and can tell you, I feel the disparaging descriptions to be misguided. This is all very subjective; what one feels about a particular piece of equipment can always be countered by another who desires, demands, and expects something else. That doesn’t necessarily equate one of being good or bad, just different. And we all may want different things. For me, at the price point I picked-up my 2CE Sigs at, I doubt most any other can compare. To me, they just sound ‘right’, great tone and timbre, natural, which for me is most important. In addition to great soundstage and dynamics potential. Positioning and placement is the key for any Vandersteen. But once you get that dialed-in, and you like the overall sonics they can provide, (for many many hours of listening at a sitting), they should make you happy and pleased. And, of course, as you improve your front-end, they sound even better. They please me a great deal, and astound me with their capabilities still. Enjoy | |
Nothing was done in repositioning that can't be done with any other speaker. It's not the long term solution if you are not liking a speaker. Within a week you will adjust to it and you'll be back at the same place again with criticism. There are many thin slice ways to affect speakers. That doesn't resolve the larger issues with them. Just because there was a change doesn't mean a particular speaker is anywhere near the potential ideal. This is one of the biggest mistakes that is made continuously. It does set up a sale for the dealer, and if he has put in the time and effort, he deserves that consideration. You would get superior sound moving up the line, so that is another alternative. But, until you get other speakers in there to compare head to head, you have no idea what you're doing. The dealer will push his line, no surprise. So, you will be throwing money at it, with an upgrade, new cables, etc. That is an expensive way to learn, but there are not too many other options when one does not have experience. Try to keep it as fun, not frustration. Vandersteen, especially lower end, is a polite speaker that will not offend. Whether it is involving enough over timer you remains to be seen. :) | |
Wow - thanks to all for the feedback/input. John Rutan was very kind in reaching out to me - we've burned a couple of hours of his personal time on placement changes based on my not-so-perfect space with SIGNIFICANT improvement. Kudos to John - super helpful, super nice. We've talked through many details and following through with a needed repair/upgrade on the Apt, cabling improvements, etc. - going to knock off variables and stay the course for a while. I highly recommend John - he's really helped me in re-learning this hobby after being away from it for many years. Thanks to John and everyone that has chimed in - hope you all continue to enjoy the journey. | |
@ OP, just noticed this from Absolute Sound, where your speakers feature : 50 Greatest bargains in high-end audio ALL-IN-ONE SYSTEMS Naim Mu-so 2, $1695 PSB Alpha P5 and T20 loudspeakers, $399/$649 Polk L100 loudspeaker, $1199 Bowers & Wilkins 705 S2 loudspeaker, $2500 | |
Vandersteen speakers are not woolly or veiled, nor are they hard to drive. I once heard a pair of the model 2(something) in a small room driven by Quicksilver monos which used, if I remember correctly, EL34 PP producing 30/40 watts. The resulting sound was extremely pleasant for an affordable partnership. They are not detail monsters but do entertain for extended listening. I have heard Vandies many times, one occasion with a pair of huge class A Sugden Masterclass mono amps belting out lovely sound at high level from the model 2 in a large hotel room at the closing of last day at a show. They filled that room beautifully and without any sign of strain. Take cognisance of the suggestions to improve the source. A computer with Dragonfly output is going to disappoint. Replacing your speakers as some have advised will merely give you a different perspective on the inadequacies of your existing source. The most expensive speakers introduced to your existing kit will simply more accurately reveal your problems. The Vandies may not be for you but right now IMO you are not in a position to make that call. It's the well known garbage-in-garbage-out story. | |
@gjinwi . I once reviewed a pair of 2Cs and did not like them either, but that may not be your problem, because the APT Holman preamp is notorious for what I will call " long life deterioration".Specifically, the PC boards on which they were built begin to de laminate, as do the leads because of a chemical process in the printed circuit boards used to hold the circuit. I tried to repair mine, but it soon failed again and I gave it up to another local user of that preamp for parts. When it was new, it was great, but it is likely not repairable. Hope this helps. | |
newer vandy's clearly have more high end energy... some surmise this is a commercial decision to meet modern demand for more perceived 'resolution' - others feel it is due to richard still voicing the speakers himself, his loss of high freq hearing with age has him doing this as a resultI doubt this is true. The newest Vandersteen, the Kento, was designed by Richard and his son and gets excellent reviews, and the highly-regarded Quatro and Treo CTs do too. No one accuses these speakers of being too bright or hot, or being badly voiced, that I have seen. | |
vandersteen's success speaks for itself older smaller vandy's are 'round' and full sounding speakers but with an open smoother sound, not so much for detail geeks newer vandy's clearly have more high end energy... some surmise this is a commercial decision to meet modern demand for more perceived 'resolution' - others feel it is due to richard still voicing the speakers himself, his loss of high freq hearing with age has him doing this as a result i think the op has set up and upstream equipment issues, and also a taste/preference matching issue to boot... what percentage is former vs latter, who knows? | |
Although the perceived musical problems were not originally stated, I believe we have got down to it with lack of resolution, etc, excessive warmth. Woolly as a descriptor seems fair in the overall scheme of speaker sound, imo. I don't think they'll work for you in the long haul. I don't think you'll significantly change the sound with electronics, although some may be a but suspect. I've always thought 2ce to be too warm, but have totally enjoyed other higher-end Vandersteens. I own a now unused McCormack DNA-1 (and had an 0.5 and a prior 1.0 as well) as it is too warm to use with my present audio only speakers. I can barely imagine that amp driving 2ce's (I could cut out the beer) but to each his own 'sound'. They are long-term listenable in a way. I'd vote ditch them and find a better/more modern design. You don't have to move to ruthlessly revealing either to get detail and better resolution than you have. There are plenty of superb reasonable choices out there. | |
Teh Vandersteen’s are actually very easy to drive. I’ve driven them with lower and higher power amps and all have sounded incredible. I’ve never heard anyone say they sounded like crap. Most of the time it’s poor recordings. Way too often we are hearing poorly recorded music or possibly damaged speakers or amps. It can happen with any good gear. | |
I suspect that the Vandersteen, being hard to drive, have low impedance dips that your amp may not like. Also a moderate priced DAC and streamer would help. For budget purposes, you could spend about $1000 on a streamer and DAC. And find a Class AB amp that is big enough to run these speakers. A brand new 2-3K amp with about 200 watts should do this. Make sure the power goes up as impedance goes down. Benchmark, Parasound come to mind. This is probably a cheaper route than replacing the speakers. I would give the Vandersteens a chance. I don't think they have sold so many of them because they sound bad. | |
@stereo5 I had 2CI’s for over 20 years and loved them. A friend sold me his 2CE’s Signature for an extremely cheap price. Replaced the 2CI with the 2CE in the exact same spots, sounded like s**t. Figured it couldn’t be the speakers so replaced all system components right down to all the cables, plus experimented with different positioning. They still sounded like s**t. Stopped listening to system for 6 months. After 6 months, tried it again and still hated them. Stupidly, I gave away the 2CI to a fellow Audiogoner for free and ended up selling the 2CE. For whatever reason, they did not sound good in my system. love it... need a laugh this evening isn't it fun being an audiophile chasing the dream!!! | |
@audioconnection , Johnny...........those speakers are long gone now, as are the VS VR33 speakers. It never did occur to me that the speakers could have been damaged. They sounded distorted. I was with my friend when he bought them up in Nashua, NH and he never changed any drivers. He wouldn’t know how and would have had me do it. Maybe he blew something in the X overs. At any rate, I spent a lot of money on the rest of the system and it really did sound bad. | |
Most of us audiophiles are no different than you. We obsess until we're blue in the face. Here's a clue I figured out many years ago: Regardless of what all these high-end magazines and audio salesmen tell you, You are chasing a phantom.Something that does not exist.By that,I mean total audio satisfaction. It sounds to me like you are trying way too hard to like these speakers. I had the same problem years ago with a pair of Magnepans. Drove myself to a slow insanity trying to figure out what was wrong.Apparently, the Vandys are not your cup of tea. No big deal. Live and learn. Move on to something else. | |
We have been selling Vandersteen for 20+ years and never had a comment
they sound like “s**t”! We have sold hundreds of pairs new and
previously owned in that time and experienced a few previously owned
pairs that were not up to Vandersteen standards. Some examples had non
OEM drivers installed or burnt parts in their crossovers because of age
or abuse but still functioned albeit with substandard sound. 2Ce Sig
speakers are 14-20 years old and may be on multiple owners with no one
realizing something is wrong. I can assure you that if they sound like
“s**t” something is amiss and they should get a complete check up. JohnnyR | |
Thanks
tomic601 ! I would love to hear your V7's. | |
Tomic knows Vandersteens! tomic601 I had 2CEs for many years (formerly driven by a McCormack DNA-1 deluxe amp and passive linestage) and loved them so much I replaced them with the newest version, the 2CE Sig III. I have heard many great speakers in my 30+ years of hi-fi at shows and dealers, but nothing comes close in terms of value for the dollar, imo. I would have the Treo CT or Quatro CT if I could afford them. But I love the "Vandersteen sound." So do reviewers... the Treo CT is also on AbSound’s "50 Greatest Bargains" list, and there are numerous other glowing reviews. I’ve listened to other touted speakers which had a lot of snap and sizzle initially, but became very fatiguing fairly quickly. I’ve auditioned the highly regarded top $15K Harbeths, and yes they are good, but not even twice as good at my Vandy 2s, much less 5X better. I’d say 15% better, but that’s subjective. I would have multiple systems if I could afford it, with Maggies, maybe Harbeths, maybe Alumines or KEF Blades, or, or, or ...? Chasing perfection can be exhausting and very expensive, and all I really want to do is enjoy the music. The Vandersteen 2, like many speakers, rewards you with the quality of your upstream gear ("Running an NAD C272 at 150WPC and an original 1979 APT Holman Pre Amp" isn’t going to yield the best results). My dealer says they have paired the 2CE Sig III with $40K of Audio Research gear and they rose to the occasion and sounded great. Their opinion is that the newest 2CE is better than the Vandersteen 3A Signature. You WILL be rewarded by upgrading your amp/preamp/sources. CAREFUL setup and speaker placement is important too (not too close to the wall!). I follow the Vandersteen owner manual setup guide and fine-tune. My current room is 12x15 with speakers on the long wall and an 8’ throw to my ears and it works. I have had them in a bigger room (and may again) and that worked too. I have a modest system, but am very happy with the results. Odyssey Audio Khartago/Kismet amp, Audio Alchemy DAC/preamp, Rega Apollo II CD player, and streaming Tidal/Roon via a Small Green Computer server/streamer. Good but not over the top cabling, but BI-WIRED as Richard V recommends. I have an AQ Dragonfly Cobalt too, for playback from the laptop and phone and it sounds good, but not as good as the rack DAC. System synergy is so important, and why I don’t make major changes in my system often. I am sure I could find speakers I like as well or even better than my Vandys, at 2-5 times the price, but it may require changing amps and preamps etc. As we know, to solve an equation you use one variable at a time and in hifi those variables can get expensive. I would suggest visiting a great Vandersteen dealer and listening to a well set up system and you may be pleasantly surprised. 50 Greatest Bargains in High-End Audio (Absolute Sound) https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/50-greatest-bargains-in-high-end-audio-3 MID-PRICED Bowers & Wilkins 705 S2 loudspeaker, $2500 | |
I had 2CI’s for over 20 years and loved them. A friend sold me his 2CE’s Signature for an extremely cheap price. Replaced the 2CI with the 2CE in the exact same spots, sounded like s**t. Figured it couldn’t be the speakers so replaced all system components right down to all the cables, plus experimented with different positioning. They still sounded like s**t. Stopped listening to system for 6 months. After 6 months, tried it again and still hated them. Stupidly, I gave away the 2CI to a fellow Audiogoner for free and ended up selling the 2CE. For whatever reason, they did not sound good in my system. I was using a 175wpc Classe’ amp and an AI Modulus 3A pre, VPI HW19mk II turntable, Pioneer PD65 CD Player, AudioQuest cables and speaker wire. I bought Von Schweikert VR33 speakers which were an even bigger disaster. | |
I think we could be dealing with two different potential
situations here 1) It is not possible to have significant problems in a
system and have some recordings sound great especially when they are
known great recordings. You could change some of the components in the
system and improve the sound but the fact that some great recordings
sound great is meaningful. 2) you could be chasing recording quality
and the only way to deal with that is to use tone controls on the
recordings that need them or dumb the whole system down to the point
that everything sound OK by trying a speaker with many drivers that
smear themselves, a dip in the mid range, plenty tweeter(s) and up in the
bass that play loud as for some audio enthusiasts enough volume cures
all. I would sort this out before spending any more money because even
though several hundred thousand of these speakers have been sold they
are not for everybody. If you decide to keep the 2Ce Sig’s I can help you get the most out of them cost effectively. Best, JohnnyR | |
I had 2ce with McCormack 0.5 amp and tube preamp. Did the setup according to the Vandersteen manual and talked with John Rutan (thanks John!). Ultimately, to me they were more veiled on the top end than I cared for. Sold them extremely cheaply to help out a young audiophile friend just out of college and he loves them to this day. I would recommend you take tomic601 up on his offer and pm him. He seems very knowledgeable and a great guy also. | |
