Nude Turntable Project
Lewm - I've often wondered how the heck they can keep the thread from slipping down the smooth sides of the platter. Lewm - Depending on my mood I do one of two things before a listening session in front of the Verdier. I dance a little dance or I get down on my knees and recite a short prayer in front of it. So far the same piece of silk thread has been on their 9 months. It must be working. cheers |
I'm sure it does; I've never seen the thread slip on any of those. That was part of my point to Dover. I thought also you were going to take issue with his idea that the Verdier needs a "stronger" motor. To my way of thinking, the Verdier is one of those in the "hi mass/lo torque" grouping of belt-drive turntables, a grouping that I regard highly for sonics and which includes the Walker Proscenium. Whatever one might think of the Verdier, I believe it was designed "as a whole", and the use of a relatively weak motor is intentional. (Actually, isn't the Final Audio Parthenon also in this group? Maybe it has a high-torque motor. It sure has a high mass platter.) |
Lew The shielding on the L07d looks like galvanized steel sheet. I think that it improves with the addition of extra shielding because there are some gaps and that in this case more is better. Yes it does resemble a flying saucer in profile and is , almost, completely encapsulated in shielding. Another interesting design is that extensive shielding is used below the motor. Btw it is not my intention to criticize the design. It is simply a different approach to building a motor. I very much like its speed sensor approach and the clever way the main rotor magnet relieves some of the platter weight from the thrust bearing. |
09-19-13: Ct0517Your recollection is not correct. I have not used the words "set up bearing" and "oscillated" in the context of the Verdier. I have not heard a "fake" Verdier whatever that is.Doverimo - if you truly understood how this table worked you would not have made this comment. I guess JC Verdier does not know what he is doing. If I recall you discussed a Verdier in the past on this forum and it required the use of a setup bearing to run properly as it oscillated. Could it have been one of the many counterfeit ones around ? Its a very imitated and duplicated table. You need to be very careful. I understand perfectly how the Verdier works, and there have been many iterations since the first Granito based one came out.. Suggest you read up on the Verdier. http://www.jcverdier.com/ADSL/platineV.html Hifi News Review - "Incidentally, the bearing tan be fitted with a bail and thrust plate, by-passing the magnetic support. but apparently it doesn't then sound as good."You might also like to check out Dertonams comments as suggested regarding the use of a ball : 04-01-09: Dertonarm With regard to my comments on weak motor, the Final Audio can pull the 22kg platter/mat/clamp to speed in less than 1 revolution. The Verdiers that I have seen and heard do not have this drive power. I know a couple of Verdier owners who have replaced the motor drive to good effect. The Final also has a correctly designed pulley for thread drive with self centering profile. The original Verdier came with the option of a belt or linen thread ( or nylon according to one review on the Verdier website ). The optimum pulley profile for a thread drive is a concave face so that the thread self centres. Running a thread on a pulley with a flat face can result in instability of the thread tracking as it can ride up and down, or will find a natural position either at the top or bottom of the pulley, depending on how accurate the pulley is in terms of congruency to the platter edge. 09-19-13: LewmTension and a correctly design pulley ensures that thread remains stable as above. |
Lewm - I'm sure it does; I've never seen the thread slip on any of those. That was part of my point to Dover. I thought also you were going to take issue with his idea that the Verdier needs a "stronger" motor. To my way of thinking, the Verdier is one of those in the "hi mass/lo torque" grouping of belt-drive turntables, a grouping that I regard highly for sonics and which includes the Walker Proscenium. Lewm - as far as I can tell from pics of the Final TT - both the Final and Platone Verdier use thread but similarities end there. they are totally different executions - as different as an ESL and Dynamic Cone speaker. I am sure Dover will enlighten us more about his Final TT. The Verdier is outside of the box as you can see from your dealers setup. It is like your childhood merry-go-round. Both the Platine Verdier and merry-go-round, once spinning need only occasional jolts / pulls from the motor/person to keep them going. The motor can be seen cycling on and off. If setup properly you can in fact turn the motor off and on for a short period and not notice the pitch change. Try that with your Dealers TT - I am very curious what you will hear. Whatever one might think of the Verdier, I believe it was designed "as a whole", and the use of a relatively weak motor is intentional. You are absolutely correct and the Verdier is not for everyone. But here is an most important consideration. We all hear about how powerful this or that one TT is; how torquey it is. The big motor. How quickly it gets to speed. Well I used to race on land, water and snow. if you ask any veteran racer - you have a race to run - you must stay at a constant speed and there are alot of turns peaks and valleys on the race course. The first half of the race will be easier to navigate over while the last few turns will be tighter. The magic question. if you had to choose -do you want better torque or brakes based on these conditions ? The drivers/riders I knew including me would say that braking is more important. Now with a TT both are important but ask yourself how does your TT brake? Is there a motor involved, a brake pad that moves in and out. Does it need to attach to a spindle, belt or thread to have the ability to brake. Well the Verdier uses no motor for breaking. Braking is done with the replusive force of the magnets. It is natural physics dealing with the record behavior. Am not aware of any other TT like this plus it has no thrust bearing. If you cut the thread while it is turning the platter turns for about 1/3 the time than when turning as a whole system connected to the motor pulley and just turning the motor off. Also in keeping with Henry's Nudie thread the Verdier is as nude as you can be imo. This design also however leaves it open to audiophiles mods. The motor can be replaced with anything along with any kind of belt or thread. Once you replace the original motor and thread system you have defeated JC Verdier's well thought out design. Your dealing with a platter system that has braking action in it for a reason. Your on your own. What other TT motors have been built to work with this type of platter system. Hey - who am I to stop someone from putting on a TW motor, or a VPI one or lets see how about a Galibier one. Heres a good one. An sp10mkii set up beside with a special acrylic platter set at the right height so thread can be installed. hows that idea ? it comes from another Verdier owner. As long as you're happy I guess. Crazy hobby. Cheers |
09-19-13: Ct0517The origins of the term ground zero began with the Manhattan Project and the bombing of Japan. The Strategic Bombing Survey of the atomic attacks, released in June 1946, used the term liberally, defining it as: "For convenience, the term 'ground zero' will be used to designate the point on the ground directly beneath the point of detonation, or 'air zero.' William Laurence, an embedded reporter with the Manhattan Project, reported that "Zero" was "the code name given to the spot chosen for the atomic bomb test" in 1945. This forum is a sharing and examination of ideas, not a war zone. The use of the term Ground Zero is perhaps unfortunate. |
Ct0517 09-19-13: Ct0517Thought you might like to have a look at a Verdier on the official Verdier website with the thrust pad and ball option. http://jcverdier.me.pagesperso-orange.fr/nouvellepage2.htm It is not a fake. It doesn't oscillate. JC Verdier does know what he is doing. Fyi Callas also do an upgrade kit for the Verdier to enable the adjustment of the ball precisely such that the platter is mechanically grounded, as per the Goldmund philosophy, but the weight borne is very very tiny, just enough to ground the platter. Many folk prefer the sound of the Verdier with the platter mechanically grounded to dissipate energy, and with a decent aftermarket motor and power supply to improve the speed accuracy and timing. Naturally there will be other folk who prefer the more mellifluous and less precise sound of the Verdier with standard motor and non grounded bearing. |
Hi Chris, The Verdier has always interested me....and as you say......Nude....but also Copernican in concept? One question I have.........what is the material of the tonearm mounting pods? They look like wood? And how are they fixed to the base? And how do you organise a different one when you get a different tonearm? |
Hi Chris, Hi Henry there is no wood here. As you are genuinely interested please find attached some email answers in my direct correspondence with Mr. Verdier. Your question is answered below. I also have updated pics in my virtual page that show the setup clearly. Imo - Mr Verdier is genuine; but understand he is also a manufacturer with a business to run. This is very evident in how he addresses my setup ball questions. My vintage granito model never came with one. His email answers are un-modified. I am now going fishing Henry. I will be using a Cordell CC Shad Green/Yellow to see if I can snag a lake trout. Cheers --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear , Thank you for your message. A gap of 1cm is absolutely normal. Can you tell me more about your curious tone arm? Please accept my best regards. J.C.VERDIER Dear Many thanks for the compliments you send me. Thanks for the photos where I can see in what high quality of environment my turntable is installed. For sure your pleasure is my pleasure and we share it with numerous users of my material. Please accept my very best regards. J.C.VERDIER Dear , Many thanks for your message. Your base is made of GRANITO . Granito is a material composed by little pieces of marble becoming from different origin agglomerated inside a mold with cement. And of course machined and polished to obtain a good looking. The resonance of the plinth with its suspension is about 5Hz and it is well absorbed by the air cavities. Please accept my best regards. J.C.VERDIER Dear , The arm board is made of 2 different aluminum parts: a cubic part and a plate . Hopping that you enjoy the listening of good records. Please accept my best regards. J.C.VERDIER Dear , It is not easy for me to choose what is better for you. So I will tell you another time what is told. The possible installation of the ball was poposed to answer some customers who want to try to use the ball. At the beginning it was only optional . But later , to normalized the manufacturing , I included systematically the kit steel ball + ceramic past. For my part I am not in favour of using the ball in accordance with the original design . Probably you have this original design so you don't have the steel ball. Don't worry about the stories of pirates , for sure some of them tried to attract customers by copies , because they are not able to conceive a product by themselves . I don't have any of them in hands and I have no comment on their working. For sure that should be easy if only a steel ball could let a turntable work properly! Have a good day and enjoy your records . Please accept my best regards. J.C.VERDIER Dear Your 1Kg center weight clamp does not ask problems. We could put till about 7Kg on the Platine Verdier before the magnets can't sustain the platter. Please accept my best regards. J.C.VERDIER |
The Verdier is NOT "nude" by the original definition put forth by Halcro after Raul. (Please go back to the beginning of this thread.) Nude means or is a synonym for "no plinth". No plinth means that those who adopted the approach mounted their tt chassis' on "feet", most typically the AT616 feet, with no physical union except gravity between feet and chassis. The Verdier has a plinth of the kind commonly used for many BD turntables, e.g., most of the Nottinghams, the Galibier, Redpoint, Teres group, Simon Yorke, etc, etc. I doubt that the makers of those other BD tt's would call their products nude by that definition. But you can call it what you want; just change the dictionary. |
09-21-13: Lewm Of course with the "nude" approach, the shelf is the plinth, as both the TT and armpod are coupled to it, unless the feet are levitating, or you are reinventing the English language. Furthermore Halcro's Victor motor & platter are bolted to a flimsy chassis adorned with copious electronic boards and transformers, which, in turn are attached to the new stainless steel frame. One could argue that the flimsy chassis or the chassis and frame is the plinth in this instance. Ironically the Verdier ( and Micro's,Melco's & Final Audio) are more naked than the pseudo nude Victor because they are not mounted in a flimsy chassis and are not adorned with electronics and other unnecessary paraphernalia. Therefore I suggest you have misappropriated the use of the word "nude", and should find a more appropriate word to describe the not so nude Victor. |
I am very reluctant to say this or whatever in the presence of Lew and Dover who are known as critical minds. In particular regarding the opinions of others. But if I remember well (not easy at my age) by the first DD TT's this, uh, 'magnetic matter' was immediately mentioned with warning for the use of the MC carts in conjunction with them. One of the reasons for me , except being the best TT ever, to buy the LP-12 then. Strange that after so many years this 'magnetic matter' is again reinvented or rather re-introduced. Regards, |
Dover, Whom are you addressing? If you are addressing me, then I was only referencing the definition of "nude" back to the beginning of this thread, whether you like the idea of nudity or not, in a turntable. Please recall that I was not a proponent of the approach at all, and still I am not. I agree that the definition has blurred in the course of 8 pages of posts. Over about the last 25 years, a trend in the design of belt-drive turntables developed according to which the platter is mounted on a cylindrical plinth that is of about the same diameter as the platter, such that there is no rectangular "deck" area in the plane of the platter. Rather, the tonearm(s) are mounted outboard via structurally rigid supports that are anchored firmly to the heavy cylindrical plinth structure. It was my empirical observation that this idea is a good one. However, it is far from consonant with the concept of the "nude" turntable, set forth on page 1 of this thread. Actually, you and I do not disagree. I can live without the lectures. Thanks. |
Hi Henry I am now going fishing Henry. I will be using a Cordell CC Shad Green/Yellow to see if I can snag a lake trout This pic is only a few days old The hit was real. The fight with 4lb pound line was real. The landing and pics are real. The emotional rush of - letting it go - was real. Music gives me a similar rush. corny ? yah... but true. Not a laker but only the 4th rainbow trout ever caught in this lake - must have come in as a baby from a smaller feeder lake. another thought on the Verdier Due to its low power requirements I intend to hook it up to my electric trolling motor battery once fishing season ends. This way it gets used year round. I mean the battery not the TT. :^) The new speaker project may delay things a bit but it will get done. Continue to inspire. Cheers |
Ct0517 09-27-13: Ct0517Are you sure that trout is not fake, there are a lot around... Meanwhile this from my last visit to the deep south (latitude 46 degrees), no dover sole there, but enough kai moana to keep the whanau replete. One of several..... Fishing for the Iwi Savoured whilst listening to Schuberts Trout Quintet - Schiff/Hagen Quartet on Decca. Well seasoned & accompanied by Rudi Bauer's excellent Quartz Reef Central Otago Pinot Gris. |
Halcro - steamed with ginger and shallots. Sounds delicious Henry. The authentic Canadian recipe is a shore lunch and it includes a small fire next to the water, beer mixed with specially seasoned flour in a pan. Nice fish Dover. sounds like a great time was had by all. Dover - Are you sure that trout is not fake, there are a lot around... I now await to hear about your next adventure Dover - We have heard many mystical stories here about the great white's downunder. Have you ever fished for one? I agree we do need to be careful of fake fish. |
Is it time for some clothes.....ππβ Five years ago I went nude...but don't tell my kids... Three years ago I went nuder...kind of 'Punk Mad Max'.... Sound was good. Inspired some fellow converts and adherents but a small problem arose. Whilst my solid cast bronze armpods at 25lbs each would never move......the rather lightweight cradle could often be nudged in the process of cartridge swapping and the spikes could slide along the hard laminate on the cantilevered wall shelf..π© Tired of re-checking the alignments of three arms, I decided to drill through the laminate at the positions of the three spikes to prevent any further sliding. Mission accomplished but small problem now became BIG problem..π The tips of the spikes now made contact with the shelf substrate and its inherent stresses. These subsonic tensile stresses now induced a resonant frequency response in the stainless steel cradle which transferred to the platter/record interface and could be amplified by the stationary stylus at maximum volume settings. Most turntable designs deal with structure-borne feedback in a combination of various methods with mixed results. Suspending the plinth on springs or trying to isolate it with rubber or other compliant feet or various types of air-inflated supports is one method. Mass is another. Real mass is still another... I have chosen to try a 'mass' solution...π The idea behind the 'mass' approach is the hope that physical vibrations can be absorbed and dissipated as heat within the plinth/platter instead of allowing resonant response characteristics. Sometimes this works and sometimes not.... With the space restrictions of my 'nude' setup I can only create a cylinder of either granite or gunmetal/bronze (wood is simply not massive enough in this small structure). Bronze would weigh 3 times more than granite (19Kg vs 7Kg) but also costs 3 times more...π² So at this time....somewhere in China, there is a CNC machine routing and polishing my turntable 'plinth' cylinder out of a solid block of black granite..π Gosh I hope it works..... |
Granite certainly has a sound to it.I hope not in this situation....? As I'm only using the granite to create a 'mass cradle' in lieu of my stainless steel cradle, I'm hoping for no contribution to the sound of the turntable itself. After all....when I went from the 'nude' table on tiptoes to sitting in the steel cradle, there was no alteration to the tonal characteristics of the table. In other words....the steel cradle had no 'sound' to it so I'm hoping the granite table similarly has no sound to it...π We'll soon know...π |
Just thought I'd mention Dupont Corian, as an excellent, easy to work, non-resonant, very dense material, that can be built up into whatever thickness desired: (http://casf.com.au/?src=globalnav) I've personally used it in a variety of resonance defeating projects, with great success. I like granite too, but Corian can be worked like wood, machined like aluminum, comes in a wide variety of colors and takes a very glossy polish. |
Henry, thanks for continuing to update us with your trials. Material choice can be tricky and I believe there are some misconceptions about benefits. Years ago I read advice to try a marble cutting board for placement under a turntable. I'm not sure how marble measures up against granite but when I checked out the recommended marble I found a knuckle rap produced an audible reaction, almost a ringing. I've read that Corian includes chips of aluminum and it too can ring, pitch being dependent on how much aluminum. Brass of course is also utilized to produce church and tower bells so I think shape and thickness must be critical there too. I've also read that slate, being a sedimentary material, is actually layered so good at dissipating energy, whereas stones such as granite and marble, being more solid, do not reduce energy as well but simply transfer it. They may not be as dense but I go back to thinking of certain hardwoods which have been traditionally selected in instrument making. At least their energy transfer (vibrations) are sympathetic with musical tones. |
@Mr P- There are, "metallic" Corian colors available, that(in order to be, "metallics) contain aluminum flakes. No other Corian contains aluminum(or any other metal). I've been using Corian for a couple decades and there is no resonance or ringing, at all. Regardless of how it's suspended/mounted, however one attempts to get it to ring or resonate, it will not. It's dead within the audio spectrum. If struck; One thud will be all you'll get. Free samples are readily available from distributors, that the OP can experiment with. |
Henry, At the risk of beating a dead horse and mixing metaphors (because the horse has left the barn), have you ever seen the finish on the Saskia and other turntables made and sold by Mosin (Win Tinnon)? He (and OMA, as well) obtain a beautiful smooth black finish on slate by means of treating the material with certain finishes. Also, they start with Pennsylvania slate, which has a unique near-black color to begin with. I borrowed Mosin's ideas in finishing off my own slate plinths (made for Lenco, Denon DP80, and SP10 Mk3). |
Corian might be ideal. What about the material used by Kenwood which people call faux marble. It's ARCB - Anti-Resonance Compression Base. It makes up the plinth of the KD500, 600, and is used in the L-07D. Contrary to popular belief, it's a mixture of ground limestone and polyester resin. I imagine you could add liquid acrylic pigment for the color of choice. I think this could be sculpted like clay or put in a mold. You might find the best solution is a combination of materials - resonances tend to cancel. |
09-14-15: HalcroHalcro in my view you should purchase another QLA7. Based on your comments above this would give you a benchmark to aspire to. If you could duplicate the arm/cartridge then you will have a "constant" against which to analyse any mods to your TT101. |
Thanks for all the feedback guys....π Corian unfortunately is a lightweight in the density scales (1.7g/cm vs 3.0g/cm for granite/slate). It seems many of you think the material of this 'cradle' will have an effect on the sound? I hope you're wrong...ππ½ If I were to physically 'bond' the turntable to the granite, I'd be inclined to agree with this thought but I intend to simply 'rest' the table on three rubber pads just like those on the steel cradle. I have experimented greatly with differing methods and materials in the support of this turntable. I have also recently bought for my son, a Victor TT-71 factory mounted in a heavy wood plinth and compared the sound in detail to my 'nude' mounting. Whilst the superb drive and timing of the Victor decks is untouched by the coupling to the heavy wood, there is a very slight (but inoffensive) colouration to the overall palette which is absent from the 'nude' mounting. There is little doubt that there is truth to the theories of resonances in materials and the effects of combining dissimilar materials to mitigate these resonances. I have my theories regarding the pervasive evil of structure-borne feedback in the turntable loop of analogue audio and the methods for handling it.......and I'm putting my theories to the test...π I'm not a believer Pryso, in the relationship between the 'ringing' of a material when struck and its performance in resonance dissipation and absorption. Polystyrene beats most materials in the 'ringing' test but is not ideal as a plinth material. And yes....I've tried it π This exercise is not about developing a plinth for my 'nude' DD Victors. The sound of the 'nude' Victors is unsurpassed in my listening experiences. This is about adding mass to my turntable support to prevent it sliding on its supporting shelf. If there are any detrimental sonic changes....including colourations....the 'cradle' will be back...π₯ |
I bought my TT101 as part of a "QL10", with plinth and tonearm. I usually find that I hate hate hate the sound of plinths made with MDF, and since the QL10 seems to have a layer of MDF, I took some steps to CLD it by (1) replacing the MDF-ish tonearm mount board with an alu one that is in turn bolted to another piece of alu that runs cross-wise under the plinth. Then (2) I bolted large pieces of alu to the underside of the plinth. I hoped to achieve neutrality via CLD and in the process I added lots of mass. (The weight of the plinth is about doubled.) Sadly, though, I have no idea whether this worked because of the continuing malady of my TT101. |
MDF today is just timber dust that is glued together.The glue is very expensive so in the manufacturing process they put in just enough glue to stabilise the outside faces of the board. In the centre where there is very little glue there is no structural strength at all. The Victor plinths appear to be more like the chipboard used in speakers in the 70's.This is quite different to modern MDF. From what I can see on the net the CLP2D Victor plinth appears to use layers of chipboard, and from the dark lines I can see, it would appear that they may have used layers of chipboard with each layer being veneered on both sides. The QLA7 appears to be a simplified and lighter version. Fast foward to todays speakers - Dynaudio put forward that they can get a cleaner midrange out of MDF than plywood, but they veneer both sides of the MDF with hardwood veneer to strengthen the board. An interesting material for plinths is Engineered Quatrz stone used in kitchen bench tops. Corian is basically a polycarbonate compound ( includes aluminium nitrate ( salt ) that is a fire retardant ). Engineered stone by comparison is around 93% Quartz stone and 7% Epoxy. It does need special blades for cutting but is much easier and less expensive than slate. Most decent bench top manufacturers use big router beds and if you draw up what you want including holes for TT, tonearm, screws etc they can cut everything for you very accurately. |
Lew, I have learnt to respect the Victor engineers when it comes to all things analogue. From their DD turntables to their tonearms to their cartridges to their pigskin mats....every product appears to have the ineffable quality of analogue knowledge and ingenuity. I think Dover is correct in his assessment of the plinth construction they used for their quality drives. I have just spent the afternoon at my son's place listening to the QL-A7 (now with the Empire 1000ZE/X). There appears to be little masking or colouration to the sound compared with a 'nude' TT-81. I might add that the turntable/plinth combination is heavy...and I mean boat-anchor heavy. This seems to give to the sound an authority and low-frequency heft that eludes many other decks. My advice (and my Tech's advice) to you is......get a good tech to burn out ALL the old solder joints in the TT-101 circuits and carefully re-do them. If they have already been done.......do it again to those joints on the Power Board Circuit under all the control buttons. An intermittent fault (or one that starts as such) is indicative of a crack or discontinuity in a solder joint. |
I received the granite cradle and have epoxy'd the three Helicoil inserts into the drilled bottom holes to take the M8 stainless steel levelling spikes. Looks quite nice..π Bit of a squeeze inside.... But is just as I imagined it...π Now for the listening tests..... |
Aaaaahhhh....π± The feedback problem is still there..... Even worse if anything..π° This wasn't supposed to be like this... In desperation I changed the spikes to more substantial ones and then to Stillpoints Ultra Minis. No difference...βΌοΈ In desperation I went to the hardware store and stocked up on all possible FLEXIBLE supports. No difference with any of them. This simply makes no sense.... My Raven has none of this feedback at all and it sits on exactly the same shelf as the Victor. Any ideas guys...? I need help...π |
It cannot be air-borne feedback Aigenga.... The stylus is in the groove with the turntable motionless and no music coming through the speakers. When I turn the volume up to a very high level...a low frequency drone begins and then increases in volume without further manual volume input. The feedback begins when the room is in silence...π |
Henry, I suspect the coupling - 3 rubber grommets are the root of this evil. It won't matter how much mass or how stable the base is, if the coupling is inadequate. Can't say I have a solution, but I'd try something like a thin bead of silicon caulk, or possibly the sealer they use to couple a speaker driver to a cabinet. I wonder what Mosin uses to couple Saskia to the slate plinth. Regards, |
