Easy, Optimis by Radio Shack (formerly), or was it Tandy?
One Amp To ‘Rule’ Them All....
Is there one amplifier that everyone can agree on as a contemporary standard? An amplifier that can be considered a standard in both the studio and in a home stereo setup?
What one amplifier does everything very well and can be found in homes and in professional audio engineering environments?
What amp covers all the bases and gives you a glimpse into all qualities of fine musical reproduction?
...something Yamaha? ...something McIntosh?
What one amplifier does everything very well and can be found in homes and in professional audio engineering environments?
What amp covers all the bases and gives you a glimpse into all qualities of fine musical reproduction?
...something Yamaha? ...something McIntosh?
138 responses Add your response
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POWER+cable+PRE AMP+cable+AMP+cable+SPEAKER (set up)+cable+ROOM (temperature, pressure, acoustics)+LISTENER (skill, taste, etc) These are the elements, more or less, with BOLD more important ... and I ask you op... How could anything be standard in this? There is no standard. People who want standards are on the perfectionist side of the spectrum, the scientists side. You all come to music because music is the universal language of humanity. It’s not a science project to set up a room, it’s a journey into the self. You want to leave your bias in the supossed land of no bias but you are afraid. Embrace the unknown, and the unknowable. Have faith in yourself, not fear of missing out. (As far as mastering rooms that use tube amps, I have a successful and well known example right in front of me daily, but yes, they are in the minority as it’s a PITA.) |
The amps you mention are not there. If we are to take amps that are used BOTH at home and in studios, here’s a list of actuals, not suppositions: - Benchmark AHB2 - FM Acoustics - JMF Audio and the list is not much longer than that. Most amps used in studios are not used at home, and of course vice-versa... Now one amp to rule them all doesn't exist, but there's quite a long list of absolutely brilliant amps which we have all heard, read about or maybe listened to. I am using a pair of Gryphon Mephisto and I have yet to see or hear something they cant do!! my other preference goes to Pass XA amps, but I could live with any good amp, from classA, AB, ABH to D. The Benchmark are probably one of the best sounding for the cost, and the Spec for classD...absolutely excellent!! |
michaelgreenaudio,
I spend most of my days with people in their twenties, late twenties. Kind of people whose primary and, according to them, sufficient source of music is an iPhone (or similar). When it comes to sound, they are far from those sparse few who asked you to tune their rooms. When it comes to the rest of your description of twenty-somethings, you are spot on. I am fully aware that people have hobbies and that someone’s hobby may be changing equipment or room or something else. They are no worse than those who like simplicity of on/off button and not much else. Tuning and tweaking is great for whoever likes to do it, for money or for fun, but it does not make those who do not do it any less correct. Yes, I took the cover of an amplifier off and no, it did nothing. Yes, it was "walking" and I apologize that I could not report same findings as you. It may be, at least in part, due to a lack of financial interest I have in listening to music. EDIT: One of those twenty-somethings I interact with these days finished SUNY Oneonta and highly praised the sound in that building you were involved with. Even many years later, you do get praises. I thought you might find it rewarding. |
brettmccee, I understand your preference for a disciplined scientific approach to audio with standards and an agreed upon language devoted to it All words, terms and concepts would be clearly defined and their usage very strictly obeyed. I think many of us recognize you are on an enlightened path that's ultimately leading to establishing logic and order to a currently chaotic HEA environment. I believe all Audiogon members, even some of our dimmer brethren, realize we should applaud your vision and encourage your efforts towards discovering the "One Amp To Rule Them All". Now, for the Good News! (you should probably sit down before proceeding.): We all voted and decided to put you in charge of transforming the chaotic HEA environment into the inspired and orderly environment you've envisioned and detailed. Unfortunately, this is an unpaid position but you do have the remainder of your lifetime as the allotted timeframe. Best wishes on your mission and please let us know when it's completed. Tim |
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I understand your point, but I would like to say that the sky, when you start to understand atmosphere and light is not blue. It is never just blue. Look at it on any given day, and you will see all the colors of the spectrum from cool or warm gray to yellow to greenish blue to red and so on. To say the sky is blue as a reference point is just limiting and misleading and not educational. But the color of the sky is a good, if not a great, example of amplifiers. I think amplifiers, the beauty of the sounds they all make, is much like that of the beauty of the sky. Limitless in color, tonality, purity of hue and intensity. And we cannot say one skyline is better than another. If really seen deeply, they are all quite stunning. BTW I used to think solid state amplifiers sounded the best. I picked up a good, maybe not great, vacuum tube amp that I adore much more than the solid state amp. When I went to an audiophile buddy’s house he picked up a Bel Canto class d amp that he luvs. I cannot stand the sound of it, but I did not tell him. Beauty of sound is in one’s own brain. That’s it... really but I suppose anyone can learn to better at listening. |
So since we exist in what is quite possibly an infinite universe, does this mean we should give up defining things? The rules, standards, measures we have today took time to form. In the early 1800’s electricity was explained as a fluid. In the late 1800’s and into the 1900’s we believed in luminiferous aether to explain light transmitting through a vacuum. And on topic, the first amplifiers were designed and implemented only about 100 years ago. There is much left to define and possibly even more left to discover when it comes to amplifier design and how they affect audio reproduction. Interesting how many are against what really can be seen as a scientific pursuit. I am only interested in further refining our definitions and language regarding the effects we hear in audio reproduction. To do so we will need some benchmarks. (Most of us can point to the sky and say that’s blue, we might experience it differently and some may not even see the blue but having that reference gives us all a greater ability to speak to each other regarding other colors and/or shades of blue). If we can do this more definitively with audio gear quite possibly we can build better amps or choose with better knowledge appropriate synergies of gear. Perhaps one day an amp can be made that can be tuned to your preferences. Many recording studios still have Yamaha NS-10 near-field monitors in their control rooms. A good example of a solid point of reference in the audio world. You mention ‘better’....And really what is ‘better’ anyway? Are you simply going to settle for saying “‘better’ is whatever I like now.” Cus that’s what a lot of this industry seems to be. New. Different. Better. But can you really prove it? Or does everyone just really like feeling special and/or unique supposedly hearing ‘the better’ with their feelings (and lighter pockets)? I know I do....but really, I want more than feelies. I want to know and define WHY different amplifiers do different things. And I am wondering if there are any benchmarks out there. That’s all. Can no one point to a particular amp and say “it has great tone.” How about, “this amp creates a holographic soundstage in most instances.” Or “this Amplifier has really great swing to it”. How about that, can we come up with a list of amps that people think demonstrate particular qualities in amplification? For example, I have a zh270 and it is an example of an amplifier capable of holographic reproduction. I also have a BAT VK-500 and it is a great example of tone and effortless reproduction. Yes I was hoping for one amp that is competent in most respects, but examples of amplifiers that excel at particular aspects will do as well. |
“We don’t see things as they are. We see them as we are” Anais Nin Eveyone has a different standard, taste, inclination based upon many, many factors. Some audiophiles here mostly believe in measurements, others trust their ears and many people have their own ideas about what sounds good. I like to say that they like their own coloration of the sound. Without delving into deep psychology, we are products of our culture, our parents, our indidual and collective biases, our values, norms and so on. How could we agree on the “One amp to “rule” them all. And why would we want that anyway. I have two amps, one solid state and one tube. Different sounds that I both really like... I also like many flavors of ice cream and one does not rule them all. There is not a reference amp. Even if there was one, tomorrow someone would make a better one? That is why I call it a silly question. |
@cleeds yes I know we have some very exacting measures when it comes to the functional testing of gear. But do we know what causes our perceptions of certain gear? Have we defined enough our language about those perceptions? What you call ‘tonality’ I may call ‘tuneful’ or ‘natural’. What does ‘musical’ mean when we hear it in an amp and is that the same as ‘swing’ and what about that amp causes this perception? Is ‘holographic’ sound the same as ‘an excellent 3-dimensional sound stage’? What causes the perception of height or image scale with a given amplifier? What causes ‘inner detail’ or ‘good sense of tempo’ or ‘good rhythm’ in an amp? Do we know why there are supposed synergies between certain audio components? Can we begin to make better predictions when it comes to gear choices? We need more commonly decided upon points of reference that is for sure. |
And just because this industry has been ‘the wild west’ for so long doesn’t mean it has to continue this way. Honest so much of it is agreed to voodoo and kept that way so very well off people can keep enjoying spending more and more money. Let’s start getting some solid points of common reference so both the industry and its consumers can make more meaningful investments. ...and generally people who use the term ‘silly’ are usually ‘snooty’. |
@2psyop Why is this a silly question? We have defined many standard measures in the world. Why is it silly to want to further define our ability to communicate about the qualities of audio reproduction? If we can begin to agree on (not love, like, prefer, feel) certain pieces of gear that define/embody/reliably produce certain qualities of sound reproduction (both ‘good’ and ‘bad’) then we can all communicate more clearly about what we love/like/prefer and we can help those who build speakers, amps, etc further refine their craft and our listening enjoyment. It would make many of our discussions less about ourselves and more about growing each other’s awareness and hopefully growing this industry. We really need a heck of a lot more common frames of reference in audiophilia land! |
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Keith Johnson's Anniversary Amp was the best I've ever heard. I think the unmatched speed - rise times measured in nano seconds and settling times in microseconds, makes property set up Spectral amp without peer. I've heard them trounce more expensive, more powerful amps, which can't actually deliver power to the speakers before the music has moved on. |
I just think we’ve got to be able to come up with some common ground and some reference standards.... We need ‘yard sticks’ for all the subjective experiences we are always batting about. To make sure we are all talking about the same things and in the same proportions wouldn’t it be excellent to be able to point to a certain amp and say “amp A is a very good example of____________” (holographic imaging, correct scale, large scale, small scale, swing, musicality, tone, forward imaging, recessed imaging, layering, tempo/rhythm, etc...) Am I making sense? |
One ________________ To ‘Rule’ Them All.... Fill-in the blank with a noun any noun -- a thread starter for every forum in existence. This question is the definition of moot, yet I and many others replied. Sounds like the definition of irony; we must all have too much time on our hands. The better question: Is there a noun, any noun (not just audio related) to be placed in the blank that we could all agree would "Rule" Them All? |
No. With amplifiers - **all** amplifiers- its all about distortion- what distortion the amp makes and what distortion it doesn't make. Because the ear converts all forms of distortion into tonality (a fact that has been known since at least the 1930s) all amplifiers therefore also have colorations. Solid state colorations are just as audible as tube colorations hence the tubes/transistors debate which is older than the internet. Feedback reduces distortion, but adds distortions of its own (see Norman Crowhurst); we've known this fact for 60-70 years. So amps that employ feedback will be brighter and harsher than real music. So there isn't and can't be an actual amplifier that is a benchmark, that is completely uncolored. |
highlander? lovely. but which One? Is there one amplifier that everyone can agree on as a contemporary standard? An amplifier that can be considered a standard in both the studio and in a home stereo setup? Nope What one amplifier does everything very well and can be found in homes and in professional audio engineering environments? I seriously doubt any ‘single’ amp could ever be a concensus of opinion for domestic and pro audio purposes simultaneously. the same variables exist in pro and domestic arenas. namely, Preffs, budgets, and the intentioned speakers being used which very likely allows for an immense number of amp options. if only one or the other ball park, home, or pro audio were the OP’s ’ aim here there would still be an abundance of choices which would be corraled by budgets, sonic preffs, and the loudspeakers being used. for sheer power capability I heard at the fla. Expo AVMs MP 8.2 monos driving a pr of Raedo 2.1s (or 2.2s?). the AVMs output was 1200w @ 8!! and as I said in my account I posted elsewhere on these pages, the reproduction was concussive on the lower end, and aggressively transparent above it.. Startlingly neutral! not a sound for everyone to be sure. at retail not a outfit for many folks either. but for the purpose of knowing exactly what is being recorded without bias or influence it could be a great tool for getting the tracks laid down with integrity. OP says: What amp covers all the bases and gives you a glimpse into all qualities of fine musical reproduction? trying to erase the factor of speakers and the rest of the associated variables, and looking only at the power plant, the most organic natural sounding power I’ve experienced lately, , was again at the 2019 Fla. Expo listening to the Merrill Audio 116 300w @ 8, Elemente monos. naturally one can not distinctively account the sound was entirely due to the presence of what ever amps, yet they play a very significant role in the reproduction and this room was definitely memorable. as I’ve migrated thru the years from SS power to just having Tubes in the power train alone, the Merrill Audio amps would be or could be the amps which would make me forget about glass power. the rendition was spooky good. yet again, the entry fee for the Merrill Audio amps is prohibitive at the moment. the notion of a one size fits all in any respect is more fantasy than honesty. in audio, pro or domestic barring budgets and even synergy, individual prreffs by themselves will be the bar to a consensus for this application. |
Power amplifier or integrated amplifier? For a power amplifier, in regards to total transarency, the Benchmark AHB2 is hard to beat (though an ATI amp using Hypex may give it a run for its money). Maybe you aren’t after transparency, but I’d rather have transparent gear and use DSP instead of getting gear with “colored” sound and play the matching game. |
Hi Glupson, good to see you! "Not everybody likes, or has time and attention span, to tweak and adjust. Some like to press the button and not think about it anymore. They are no worse than those who tweak to the end of the world. They just have different approach." I have to ask, who are you hanging around? I read comments up here many times and I honestly feel like I'm visiting the nursing home for music lovers. I've seen guys try to get me to think that people are not "doing", but I think they fail to realize that people get ahold of me every single day asking me about the very opposite. If you saw the questions on my emails just from this weekend I would be surprised you could make the statement you just did. Your second paragraph is much more to the point and easier to understand where you are at in your thoughts. Glupson, HEA took a detour that the rest of audio technology didn't. While HEA was pushing the high cost revolving door of "One Volume Control Only" the professional and innovative audio world kept moving forward. HEA magazines became out of touch with what was actually taking place in the hobby of listening and fell way behind the learning curve. Now that $30-$200 amps for example are slapping them in the face the era of one volume control only club is finding itself obsolete. HEA will try to act like they were not out on the island they were and will try to switch gears in front of us to make things look the way they want to, like all generations do as they reach that age of little return. But it's too little to late. As you my friend have mention a few times you are here because you are wasting time for yourself. Consider those who feel the hobby is not the wasting of their time. You might be surprised to see that not everyone is lazed out on their sofa sipping with only the remote in their hand. Or maybe it's just when I come to visit them they put on a display of activity in front of me to impress and then go back to their catatonic state when I leave. Kind of reminds me of your taking off the lid of a component to say you did it and that qualified you as a "walker". I can't help but notice the active world today moves maybe a little further along then that description of walking. I do wonder however when I see you now posting if you can see the hobby walking or maybe even running by your older posting. Glupson as you can see it didn't take very much for me to move the direction of this forum with the help of other walkers thinking they too are a part of a more ambitious lifestyle than the talkers. interesting isn't it, smile mg |
Hi Rodman One thing I have learned from the recent CESs and the news that comes out of them is innovation is our hobby's best friend. It has also helped me when visiting and tuning "gamers" rooms. Tuning rooms for 25 year olds is a trip. Their brains are so fast and hungry for knowledge. While tuning a room this weekend I mentioned something about a PBS show I saw, and before I could push the next pin in this guys fingers were on the keypad pulling up all kinds of videos on the topic I mentioned. He was amazed what I did with the acoustics, but I was sitting there amazed at how quick this guy zoomed in on topics and popped them up on the big screen with like 20 videos on the same topic waiting to load. The generations have much to learn from each other, and the old school has some very good basics, but the innovation of the new is wild, fresh and smart. mg |
"The plug & play hobby is almost over. Enter the variable wars :)"Not everybody likes, or has time and attention span, to tweak and adjust. Some like to press the button and not think about it anymore. They are no worse than those who tweak to the end of the world. They just have different approach. The end of "one volume control knob" era may be coming to an end, if there has ever been that era, but it may be just because of fashion cycles. A few decades ago, amplifiers had lots of shiny knobs, then less and less. It may be time for more. At the same time, real simple-to-use tweaks have been around for decades. They used to come with receivers. "Club", "Church", "Stadium", "Pop", "Rock", and what not. I have not checked receivers in a while, but cell phones/iPods/etc. have such modalities. Changing sound to suit someone's preference has been around, it is not due to the "end of HEA" now. Wars are never a pleasant experience. Hopefully, variable is negotiable. |
@michaelgreenaudio- "What if you drove to the next HEA trade show and instead of walking into rooms where everything sounded different and there was only a volume control to adjust, you instead walked into rooms where you could sit down and make everything and every recording sound your way?" If everything sounded, "your way", wouldn’t that result in some VERY happy brain-waves? Like I said earlier, once someone like Lyngdorf manages to meld FFT/DSP(and their Room Perfect algorithms, for instance) with EEG, maybe. If someone can imagine it, tap into your Happy-Listening-Synapses and come up with the algorithm, why not? My TacT RCS 2.2(Boz was Lyngdorf’s old partner), with all of it’s room correction abilities, has enabled me to shape my sound, in a way that puts me in another venue and very happy. If this is possible via laptop keyboard(and TacT), why won’t it eventually be done via thought and some new device, like THIS: https://newatlas.com/mind-controlled-prosthetic-fingers/41886/ Then again, why not a direct feed, to your brain’s listening centers(who needs ears, anyway), or- a way to trigger a little extra Dopamine, whenever music’s playing, so everything sounds good, regardless? https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/your-musical-self/201101/why-listening-music-makes-us-feel-g... Now, THAT would be really, "High-End"! |
