Hey Gemini,
You're allowed to post here after this beating, don't worry bro, it's not the Asylum ! |
"everybody hates the Jews"
I don't. |
Even though I'm not the biggest Beatles fan, I'd offer at least $15 for Gemini's Beatle collection. Shipping costs are the great unknown here. I suspect a complete collection of Japanese pressings of the Beatles has to be worth a lot more than $10.
Where are you Gemini? If you're in my neck of the woods, I'll pay cash and carry. |
"Hals_den said - Even though I'm not the biggest Beatles fan, I'd offer at least $15 for Gemini's Beatle collection"
I shake my head in amazement.
It's little wonder why we can't get along.
PW |
Please explain, Punkawalla. I don't understand your amazement, and I'd like to get along. |
I think Gemini was having a little fun when he offered the beatles set for $10
But at this stage I'm not even sure of that.
PW |
*Staring at monitor with puzzled expression, mouth slightly open, brow furled*
Ahhhhh... |
Yes, even a caveman can do it. |
Despite ruffling a lot feathers of my audio flock, I feel compelled to defend my forefathers; the cavemen. Dekay's reference to the quite humorous, "so easy even a caveman can do it", ad campaign reflects a not so funny arrogance that plagues our generation. Because of the wide acceptance of Darwin's theory of evolution, our generation believes we are the most intelligent species ever to roam the earth. If, however, Darwin's theory is incorrect and man was created by God and in His image, then cavemen were quite likely more intelligent than we are today. As we are many generations after Neanderthal man (cavemen), we have accummulated all the the mutations of that time. Of course evolutionists believe mutations can be beneficial while creationist see mutations as reminders of mans' fallen state.
But in an attempt to steer this thread back on track, I just recalled another couple of audio gems that begat my audiophilia. I scored a Fisher reciever with a built-in turntable around 1976 for $75. I can't remember what brand the turntable was, but I remember it had an Empire cartridge (888P). What a neat looking cartridge. That console was a big upgrade from my Panasonic transitor radio. Probably the biggest one yet in my audio history. |
The last thing this thread needs is to be 'put back on track' :)
pW
PS - I once sold a Krell power amp to an elderly person for less than it was worth. I cut the same kinda deals for other minorities too. |
I have an interesting scenario: Let's say that I go to a garage sale in my middle class neighborhood. I see an old painting by some unknown artist that the owners have priced for $5.00, including frame. I think it will look nice in my den so I buy it for their asking price, not even considering "horse-trading" which is normal for garage sales. I take it home and decide to take the painting out and clean the frame of the old dust and crud build-up accumulated over the years from being improperly stored in their attic. While seeing that the backing of the painting is slightly torn, I notice that there is something else behind the painting inside the backing so I carefully take off the backing and find an original Picasso worth one million $$. What do I do? Take the painting back and let the garage sale owners know what they mistakenly sold me, keep it for my personal enjoyment, or maybe auction it off with a prestigious auctioneer to get the million $$ or more that it could bring? Is there an ethical or moral value at stake in this scenario? |
I would sell the Picasso and send the money to Gemini. |
In defense of Gemini:
The worth of an item can only be measured in the hands of the person holding it. To the elderly gentleman, the TT was only worth the $100.00 he asked for it. He could have offered it to his elderly next door neighbor to whom it may have only been worth $50.00. That's what it's worth would have been. To the person Gemini sold it to, it had a worth of $900.00. Maybe at the time Gemini resold it, he thought it had a worth of $1,500.00 but it was only worth $900.00 to the person who bought it. The worth of any item is only measured by the person who is willing to buy it or to the person holding it for the worth he is willing to part with it for. To say that Gemini should have offered the gentleman a measure of worth more than the gentleman was asking is to impart Gemini's sense of worth of the object to it, not the gentleman's measure. To the elderly gentleman, he was happy to get $100.00, he received the full measure of what he perceived to be its worth. Keep in mind also that this was 1993, well before there was any established mediums to sell used equipment and before there was a sense of established prices for used equipment. The elderly gentleman might have had absolutely no access to market to sell the TT thus it's value was hardly established in any measureable way and it was the beginning of CD's and everyone was dumping their TT's. For all the trouble the gentleman may have had trying to sell it using any other means or markets that were available then, the gentleman was very happy to sell it for the price he received. I think both Gemini and the elderly gentleman made great deals.
Mike |
"The worth of an item can only be measured in the hands of the person holding it"
That's the value of the item based on one individuals perception of its worth, NOT fair market value, which is based on a cross-section of the buying public with a specific interest in the item.
The two are very different, let’s not get confused.
Having said all that how did the gentleman arrive at the $100 value for the TT? Is it the buyer who has responsibility for researching fair market value, or the seller? (obviously the seller). Is old age a good reason not to be able to research fair market value, in this instance, no, sorry it isn't. The gentleman was 'aware' enough to be able to make the necessary arrangements to place the advertisement, and would surely have taken one step further to research the items value, had he been so inclined. Maybe the old guy stole it and thought $100 for hot merchandise was a good deal. Who knows what circumstances were in play.
As for the little Picasso story, cute, but a poor analogy for what is going on here.
pW
|
Thanks for the comments about my cute Picasso story, Punkawalla, but it wasn't meant to be an analogy but another scenario. |
Punkawalla,
Let's not confuse the matter with the concept of fair market value. Fair market value is the collective perception of all individuals having in interest in the item as to is value or worth. Between Gemini and the elderly gentleman, the concept of fair market value was not in play. One paid the other what the other expected or asked for the TT, and each person's perception of its value is what controlled the transaction. The problem that most folks are doing here is, like you, adding the concept of fair market value into the transaction as a measure of whether or not it was a good deal for each participant in the transaction. |
Michaela,
Please don't try to tickle my fancy with words about fair market value, i've been in the retail industry for 42 years, and my description did not require the additional commentary that you came up with.
Incidentally, whether clear to you or not, we actually agree in our support of gemini's role in the transaction, just not on the principals behind how it came to be.
many thanks
pW |
I have never perceived paying a seller his full asking price as being unfair. I find giving someone a hard time over paying the sellers full asking price very weird. Is this another case of political correctness? Was the OP not meeting moral standards by paying the sellers full asking price? Geesh, this turned into a weird thread.
Some of you guys are really putting yourselves on the moral mountain top. And I would imagine you would have done the same thing the OP did if the opportunity arose. Very weird indeed. |
I think it rather self-righteous and mean spirited of the many of you who are trying to make him feel bad about his good fortune. Ageist too. I see no indication in the OP that the gent was in any way unable to look out for himself. If it had been some fellow in his prime, with an equally nice place, and equally unaware of the value of what he was selling, none of you would have said anything but "good score!"
Gemini had no obligation to educate the man or offer him more for the Linn. It might have been nice of him, but strictly beyond the call of duty. If any of you happened to be in a pawn shop or nick-knack store or flea market and found something you wanted and knew to be a great bargain, you'd buy it right up, offering no more than the asking price. Now if the seller in any of these cases was obviously in bad financial shape, needing the money to make ends meet, then things would be different, but only in the sense in which such people deserve charity, and you ought to give it to them. Similarly, if there were some reason to think the gent was in the grip of some self destructive obsession or was in any systematic way unable to look out for himself and his interests (here I think of the kid stretching his tiny savings to buy his first stereo, but not knowing better than to pay MSRP, or the retailer steering him towards crap gear with a huge markup). But if there was no reason Gemini ought to have just given the guy money (if he had it to spare) regardless of the TT's value or even existence, and no reason why this guy was unable to look out for himself generally or being a fool rather than just uninformed in this instance, there's no reason he should have given him more than asking price.
Besides that, you've got your economics backwards. No one is entitled to FMV of their goods. FMV is a function of what sellers and buyers in fact trade their goods at, not just what knowledgeable experts tend to trade those goods for. Widespread information makes it easier to determine FMV, and tends to normalize the actual prices at which things sell, but it doesn't turn FMV into anyone's right. Nor does it mean that paying less, even way less, than FMV for something is per se taking advantage of anyone, even if they have gray hair.
I've no idea whether Gemini is a stand up fellow who does his part in this world, but if he is, then this transaction is no reason he can't look at himself in the mirror. Indeed, he can even say "good for you, you fortunate man"! |
I'm still trying to understand how paying the guys asking price was 'taking advantage' of him, especially when not a single one of you can presume to know the motives behind the old mans price on the TT. Just because he was old doesn't mean he was confused, senile or uneducated on what he had and it's worth.
Now if Germini had happened to spot the Linn through a window while walking by the old man's condo, knock on the door and say 'hey I noticed that old turntable sitting there and wondered if you'd take $100 bucks for it' THEN you could chastise him.
Given he paid full asking price I think alot of you need to get off your high horses and STFU. |
"The second I read the ad, I immediately called the seller who happens to be this older fellow who obviously didn’t have the slightest clue what he’s about to relinquish."
I think that this is the statement that Gemini made in his thread that got the ethical comments started. I was curious how Gemini knew that this older gentleman didn't have a "clue" what the Linn was worth. I believe the thread was started to see what "treasures" others had found for a bargain. It's sad that this thread turned into an ethical debate. I don't feel that this is how it was intended. |
STFU,thats cool,I havent seen those initials before.Got to remember that next time I'm mediating a debate between the SDS and the NRA.Got to remember to be wearing my 16 of course.Adieu,Bob |
Bob
I've learned quite a few new ones from other forums here in the past year.... like YSATI/ISATI, TPIWWP, FYYFF.... IDK my BFF Jill.. errrr no, wait....
;-P |
"I don't feel that this is how it was intended".
I think you are absolutely correct. And while it did not produce a positive result for Germini, I think it did stimulate a lot of interesting posts.
The ones I found most interesting were the posts by folks who deride those who might be (insincere) 'moralists', as opposed to being perhaps just more generous of spirit, and perhaps monetarily as well. It wasn't enuf for them to simply say that Germini's trading practices were in accord with thier own views.
Interesting, wonder why?
Seems to me that the mud pile has been depleted!
BTW, I think the only thing I found really objectionable was the bragging aspect of the post. If you want to brag about getting the upper hand in any transaction (financial or other wise) its only interesting when the folks involved are equals. Not "candy from kids" stories.
FWIW. |
Hi, By best trash to treasure story for audio is....
My local dump AKA recycling station has a "Take it or Leave it". A place to put unwanted goods if you dont want to put them on Ebay, want to have a tag sale or feel its just to good to be put in the crusher. I puruse it several times a week and some times several time a day, if I happen to be passing by.
A couple of years a go, I was on my way to work when I stopped in to take a look see. I approaghed the "Take it or Leave it" shack, an open lean-to about 10 feet by 20 feet, when I see a pair of speakers. Not just any speakers, this is Audiogon,afterall, but a pair of Super Quads! Thats right, Quads with the RTR tweeters and the KEF? woofers.
Well the woofers were not there but I loaded these up and drove off to work.
The next day as I examined them and I saw a phone number and name on them with property theft info in case they ever went missing. I called the guy and he told me he had them since new and disposed of them as he knew no one that wanted them. The seperate woofer system he gave to his nephew for subs. I tried to get the subs back to match them up again to no avail. Sold them to someone more intereseted in them than myself as I was allready using my pair of Acoustat6
Bob |
Adhaney,those are new to me also.I am trying to figure those now.What a great thread!Everyday when I check it,I expect it to fade,but,nope,still alive.Sorry for the hijack Gemini.....hope your feeling about the close encounter with this brutal golden rule.Hows things?Good luck,Bob |
You can't blame Gemini too much. I once read a story of an old lady whose son had died and she decided to sell his guitar. The axe turned out to be a '59 Flame top Les Paul in mint condition. I would've kept my mouth shut and purchased. |
