I think that’s just part of streaming and how movies and shows are recorded. Both contribute to poor dialogue.
If the majority is through an Apple TV X - have you played around with the “Enhance Dialogue” feature? It’s within settings underneath Audio and can also be set on the fly while watching certain streaming apps - YouTube is not one of them. The only issue is that there’s a loss of dynamics when this setting is enabled.
If you can’t find within the settings, try updating the Apple TV - I believe this feature became available in the last update.
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Sounds like you have a problem... unless your hearing is very compromised your system probably just needing adjustment. When you equalize the channels, you can give a boost to the center channel. 85% of the dialog comes from the center channel.
I am not familiar with your surround processor... but you should be able to equalize the sound for speech. I would use an AI and ask how to optimize speech using your processor for home theater.
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I’m convinced the problem is the people editing the audio know the story too well, they hear/understand it and are unaware of the poor decisions they are making, letting the sound effects and music remain too loud, too dynamic during dialog, masking intelligibility for anyone not familiar with the content.
They need people who don’t know the material as part of their final audio editing.
Listen to a band like Bad Company. They are very dynamic, but they lower their volume, background vocals and instruments when Paul sings, up/dn/back up/back dn ...... they do a great job and that is one of the reasons he is such a highly regarded singer. Whenever I encounter a local musician playing loud, trying to shout over his own music, I suggest they give a listen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEPvv9pjIoQ
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First, that Focal sells a $4300 center speaker as a simple 2-way MTM design is an embarrassment — any center at that price should have a dedicated midrange driver. Second, you have the center positioned with the tweeter well below ear height that cannot be helping. You should try putting it on the top shelf below the TV or at least try angling it upward so the tweeter is aimed more toward ear level. It also looks like it’s positioned off center so with a MTM design maybe there’s some comb filtering happening that’s further sucking out some clarity. It’d also be interesting to hear if you disable the center speaker and configure the system for a phantom center if you still experience dialogue clarity issues. Just some thoughts and some things to try FWIW — hey, it’s free — and best of luck.
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@toro3 and @ghdprentice, thanks for the responses. The Apple TV-X (see link: https://appletvx.com/) is a whole other device based on the Apple TV. I learned about it from the WhatsBestForum, and based on the feedback, invested in it. A key point the designed stresses is NOT to update it without his approval, as he tests them first and alerts the community. Some updates can cause serious issues, so its best to be aware. Yes I have played with Enhanced Dialog, and Marantz has that feature as well. I also use the Audyssey program embedded in the Marantz to balance the room, and it does a good job of that. There is ability to increase volume from the center channel, and I do that as well.
From AI: To improve dialogue clarity in a home theater, focus on speaker placement, audio settings, and room acoustics. -- I've tried some of that, but it's worth diving deeper.
As to my hearing, it is age-appropriate, with a case of tinnitus served on the side that is distracting but does not impact how well I hear. I've read enough articles indicating dialog issues in movies or series are fairly common. As my recent experience pointed to the benefits of a high quality amplifier improving HT sound from the L/R speakers, and my center speaker, interconnects and speaker cable are all very good, I wondered if some dedicated (e.g., obsessive) HT person had taken another step and added a high end amplifier for the center.
Or, perhaps as in many other areas, this is life today. I'll keep trying and am glad to learn from and share the experiences of others. Thanks,
Robert
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OP,
Looking at your system. I would try moving the center up and point the tweeter at your ear level (as someone recommended). My center is low, I used different elastomer pucks to angle it up towards my ears. I have no problem hearing the dialog.
Keep working... there must be something, Is the center channel tweeter working? You can see my HT under my systems.
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I was amazed at the difference when I put my center channel on its own stand and not on the shelf.
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@soix, the picture I have in my profile does not do justice to the setup. The center speaker is pointed up (hard to tell, but it is) and when I'm seated, it aims at my shoulders. Those are obviously not my ears, but if I recline or sit on the floor, the improvement isn't there. Placing it on the top shelf is a no-go, as unfortunately it is tall and would block the lower part of the TV. My listening position is about a foot off of center (my room limits that), but the center speaker is almost exactly in front of me. When I run Audyssey, I create a very tight listening position, and the software does a good job of correcting for me being a bit off center.
Focal's next level center speaker, the Sopra, has a midrange driver, and might be better for home theatre, but it is even bigger (taller) than mine, and would not fit in my shelving. I considered it for a minute or two, but I'd take yet another beating doing an upgrade. Ugh.
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OP: ATV X - had no idea this existed, just assumed you were referring to ATV. Within Audyssey do you have Dynamic EQ enabled? Any offset? Experimenting with this setting helped after my last calibration.
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I had the same problem with muddy dialog when streaming. (I have Focal Aria926 mains and the matching Aria center channel.) These three changes helped a lot:
1. I purchased an EtherRegen to reclock the digital signal going to the Apple TV. There are other switch boxes on the market that do the same.
2. If you can, use Dirac to do EQ and impulse response correction. Even better, check the speaker responses with REW and if your AVR alllows it, adjust the speaker distances to time align the IRs.
3. Maybe not relevant to you, but I purchased a McIntosh MX200 AV processor and the SQ from this device is excellent.
Good luck!
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I’d still try disabling the center speaker and trying a phantom center, because if that sounds clearer/better it might indicate a problem with the center speaker. Worth trying to rule it out I’d think. Best of luck again in finding a solution — I know it must be very frustrating.
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@toro3 , the ATVX is amazing in many ways. It is an ATV on steroids at a premium price. I thought myself nuts for getting it, and was unhappy early on. It took a while to come into its own (4 weeks) and I've come to accept it as a welcome enhancement rather than transformative. Night and day better? No; more like afternoon to evening, but better. Worth the price of admission? That answer is subjective and in the eyes and ears of the beholder. There are many users that say yes. My response is, "Yes, I suppose so."
I've had Marantz products for over 10 years, and am fairly familiar with Audyssey. Yes, Dynamic EQ is enabled, Cinema EQ is not. I played considerably with offset, have it set at zero now, as I found that sounded best. For a pittance I downloaded Secrets of Audyssey, which I find to be a good resource.
@drkenl , only with this iteration of the Marantz has Dirac become available. I had it on an Arcam AVR that I owned for a short while and found it cumbersome. It has improved since, so I await their Black Friday sale to save 25% on the purchase, as the cost of the software has increased considerably. It also requires an omnidirectional microphone, and that price has increased 50% thanks to tariffs. Ugh. As to the digital signal, I have fiber converters from ethernet on my router to my Network Acoustics Tempus switch, with an NA Eno2 filter between it and the ATVX. I invested in that switch to get more bang for my network buck, and I felt the system sound improved in both home theatre and audio when it was added. Could my network setup be better? No doubt, but here I am.
When I looked at upgrading this last time, I considered the McIntosh M170 and M180, which include desirable Lyngdorf aspects, but even buying used, the price stopped me in my tracks. The new Marantz is no slouch and will have to do for now.
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@gkelly , I was similarly shocked when I put my front speakers on Isoacoustics feet; I could not believe the improvement. A separate stand just won't cut it in my space, and my AV rack is from years gone by. Convincing my wife that we need a new one to better place the equipment she already despises is a hard sell on a good day. Now if she were to go away for a few days and I got a suitable replacement in the same color, maybe she wouldn't notice...
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@soix , it's not as if my system is Bad. I'm simply trying to go from very good to very, VERY good. It has been stated elsewhere and, as @elliottbnewcombjr pointed out, it may simply be a matter of less than ideal recordings resulting in muddy dialog. My hope was that someone using an audiophile amplifier for their center channel can weight in as to whether that makes a difference. It certainly did for my L/R channels.
Yeah, the center speaker works properly, as the dialog coming from it is pretty clean. Crystal clear so I understand every word? No, but that could be a matter of chasing unicorns. I'll play with the phantom center to compare the effect, which seems a matter of removing the center speaker from the setup.
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Unless you can come up with a diamond that is large enough, you’re pretty much stuck with WAF syndrome. We all hope someday you win the lottery so you can avail yourself of this curse(Not the wife, just that you will be able to build a separate room for your hobbies).
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I’ve typed this a lot. I have experience both in theaters and homes and built my own center channel. Here’s the absolute truth:
Center channel speakers will not help you hear dialogue better. They help you hear the center channel track as if it’s coming from the center of your screen. If you always sit dead center the center channel speaker does nothing at all for you. It’s when you sit off center, stand up, sit below that the center speaker becomes important.
You have a really nice rig, which I believe has custom EQ features. My suggestion is to sit very close to the speakers. If the dialogue magically becomes good the issue is your room. That’s not something fixable by a more expensive center channel. https://speakermakersjourney.blogspot.com/2024/05/the-center-meaured.html
Also, interesting article here saying it’s really not us, it’s them.
One reason I know the center doesn’t matter in the center is I have an anthem MRX. They are all buggy. They’ve acknowledged they are buggy and lack the previous generation’s feature which is to enable Dolby Surround regardless of the actual incoming source. Lots of things on Netflix are digitally marked as 2.0 so the MRX will 100% refuse to apply Dolby Surround processing to it but will still tell you it’s on. End of that story. I’m glad there are tarrifs on your gear now. Stupid Canadians...  As a result I have the stupid thing double blind testing me all the time. Effer. If I’m sitting in the center I 100% can’t tell the difference. If I’m lying down to the side I 100% can.
Their previous generation of processors allowed this feature.
One thing you can have because you have a nice Marantz instead of an Anthem is to use the PEQ features which I think you have to modify the sound track and boost mid bass to mid. Around 500 to 4 kHz or higher.
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Very nice components within your system. However, when I viewed your system layout, 2 things came to mind. Your center is not optimized, both vertically and horizontally. I suppose left right balance to center can be compensated by Audyssey, but why manipulate the signal more than necessary. I agree with Soix, trying a phantom center, or optimize your center.
The other is your room acoustics. Interesting test recommendation from Eric. But from looking at your front wall, between the windows and your TV, things will get very lively. I have a similar problem (windows not directly behind, but left & right) with extensive treatment. Good luck.
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@traubr you have an awesome set up for HT. Congrats on the 16, that’s an end game amp. I’d be hard pressed to think the issue is your gear. As others have recommended, running the center in Phantom mode is a great idea, that’s the first thing I would try. You might really like that change, if the Coda is used in your HT set up to run the L/R speakers the dialogue would now be coming from the best speakers and amplification you have in your set up. You could also try pulling the center out and placing it more in the room on a stand, then swapping it out for another speaker in that same position. Leaving it in that position isn’t the solution but it would highlight if the current placement is part of the issue. You could also disconnect all the channels except the center, listen to the center, swap the center for another speaker. If you hear noticeable differences would confirm getting another center could be a solution but unless your current speaker is damaged, would be really surprising. You could also try different amplification, hook the center up to the Coda, see if a different amp changes anything. Again, doubtful it would but would give you proof of concept before you by new gear. You’ve tried everything else I could think of as it relates to adjusting dialogue on the Apple TV and also using your Marantz to boost the center channel. I would also try taking a DVD / Blu-ray disc, compare the disc to streaming the same content, if there is a noticeable difference in how you can hear the dialogue you then will know the compression used for streaming is the issue. I recently upgraded my Projector to a JVC 4k. I had streamed 99 % of the movies I was watching, I got a 4 k player and the bigger difference is the sound, not the picture compared to streaming. Noticeable improvement on channel separation, bass and overall clarity. When you stream everything is compressed, less data is used due to bandwidth limitations / considerations. Algorithms are used for both the picture and sound. Could be that the combo of poor mixing during production of the dialogue and the compression during the streaming process are the combo making dialogue hard to hear. If that’s the case, only fixes would be using physical media to watch content or buying a high end movie streamer, there are a couple out there but they are expensive and you would still be limited to Movies, content you’d buy through their service, wouldn’t solve streaming Apple TV + shows, Netflix, Amazon Prime Video, Disney Plus or Paramount Plus streaming content.
Good Luck!
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If you are using Audyssey to balance the system you might consider some manual adjustments instead. I have a Mc AV processor and the Focal Viva center and had poor dialog using the auto setup because the relative center gain was simply too low. You still have the variance with source material and room acoustics, but dialog is one of the easiest issues to solve. IMO your current amp and center are more than fine and should be much better than any phantom setup, especially since your LCR's are timbre matched. As noted, the aiming of the center is important, but I believe you have this addressed. Being slightly off center might cause some timing issues but should not be a major issue with dialog clarity.
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First, allow me to say I am humbled by the contributions from all of you to help me work on this dilemma. Sometimes it takes a community and the experience and opinions of others, which is what this Forum is all about. I take it all to heart (well, most of it, anyway) and am analyzing and strategizing while sitting in front of the home theatre beast I have wrought.
We live our lives in context, and mine is in a 225 year old house which has its beauty and obvious warts. With something historic (nothing worthy of a historic registry), I look at our time here as stewards rather than simply owners, doing our best to ensure it thrives another century or two. Over the years we’ve done much to improve and bring it to current standards. Some aspects, like my listening room, are a battle that ends in a draw, rather than victory. There are SO many things about it that need improvement to make it acoustically acceptable, first and foremost its slightly L-shape.
I spent a great deal of time positioning the front L/R speakers to get balanced stereo sound. As equipment has changed, the distance between them and their positioning (toe-in vs facing front) has changed, and they now sound better than ever. I just measured and yes, the center speaker is off center by a foot. But then, so is my listening position. If I could, I would move my throne (prime listening chair) a few feet closer to the system and a bit to the right to be in an ideal spot. Alas, I sit on a couch, off-centered against the back wall, and having it centered and two feet from that wall ain’t gonna happen. Acoustic treatments on the walls or ceiling? WAF says “ain’t gonna happen.” I think you see where this goes. Aging ears, tinnitus, less than perfect audio tracks… everything in context.
The Marantz itself does not have PEQ; you need either the phone app or the full-blown version of Audyssey to make and upload EQ changes. I have the phone app and had the full Audyssey version for my previous Marantz AVR (they frustratingly do not permit transfer from one product to another even with the same owner) and found those tweaks daunting (where to start, what to change). Any suggestions on managing that are greatly appreciated. In my research I see that Dirac has that capability embedded, and thus might be a worthwhile Black Friday gift to myself and potential solution.
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@traubr I’d like to point out two things that others have mentioned and my feedback.
First off, you’re using a modded appletv to stream. The file you’re hearing is compressed heavily in the audio department and you lose a lot of the info. It doesn’t matter what’s been done to the AppleTV and all it’s doing is polishing a turd. I have demoed that very claim hundreds of times to clients by playing a movie clip on an AppleTV then that same clip using a bluray disk and a cheap bluray player.
Second - I would strongly suggest utilizing the Dirac feature. You mentioned the price of the mic, the MiniDSP UMIK1 is around $80. Considering you bought a highly modded AppleTV, $80 is pretty cheap. With that said, Dirac has a ton of really great tools and if you’re not comfortable in diving into them all I would suggest hiring someone that can help you. There are a ton of options of dirac wiz kids that can even work on your system remotely which works out too.
If you are wanting to get the very best audio and video out of your system and still stream, there’s only one option and that’s from a company called Kaleidescape. Their files are a true 1 to 1 bit rate to the original. Below is a link to their player, scroll about half way down and you’ll see a graph comparing an appletv to their file. I’d suggest finding a dealer close and look into it further if you’re interested.
https://www.kaleidescape.com/strato-movie-players/
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@mm1tt77, I have the same experience as you regarding recorded matter vs streaming: Blu-ray excels, end of story. Back a few years, if a movie warranted a place in my collection, I bought it and enjoyed superior sound. My DVD collection is doing a great job as a dust collector now, as I am drawn to streaming. Very little of it has truly good sound that takes advantage of Atmos, likely the result of our ills. I remember watching a series recently where the activity was on the street, and the production did a terrific job of filling the background (rear speakers) with the ambient street sounds you hear but may not pay particular attention to. That quality is rare, but when it's there, it's home theatre bliss.
The stand idea for the center channel is interesting, but is a no-go for me in my space (notice the recurring theme). After a review last night, I feel my center channel is working just fine, actually quite well. I'm sure the next level in the Focal line, the Sopra, could provide an even better experience, but it comes at a significant and this point, unrealistic cost. Many of the ideas here are excellent and warrant trial, with the understanding that dialog particularly, and sound in general, can be somewhat compromised.
The ATV-X streamer I have is not the typical Apple TV streamer (link is earlier in the thread). As one can spend tens of thousands on music streamers or DACs, I was surprised the best "TV" streamers were under $200. Surely someone, somewhere has made an uber streamer that performs as you could only wish for, at (of course) a breathtakingly high price? Enter the Apple TV-X. It helps, believe me, but there are limits. For my edification, if you know of any other uber streamers, I am eager to be aware of video streamers that can scale the heights.
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@sunshdw Thanks for the info. I read about the Kaleidoscope a while back, and was humbled by the investment cost. But then I must have a birthday coming one of these days... Dirac seems a reasonable way to go and Black Friday is just around a corner or two. Btw, thanks to tariffs the UMIK is now around $140.
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@traubr my recommendations on moving your center channel was as a means to prove proof of concept, figure out if the center channel itself was the issue or the placement or the amplification. For sure realize that wouldn’t be the long term solution for you. Sounds like you have already identified it’s not the center channel or the amplification, I would have been surprised if it was. From a streaming standpoint, the Kaleidoscope is a fantastic option but it’s not a replacement for Apple TV or Roku if you want to watch content that is for streaming only, example being Ted Lasso or Smoke the Kaleidoscope Isn’t an option that I’m aware of. It actually replaces a Blu-Ray or 4k player. It provides a way of streaming movies with the same quality as you get with physical media. It doesn’t allow you to use streaming services like Apple TV + or Netflix or Disney Plus. You buy the content, mostly movies from their library and it’s a digital copy that is equal to the physical media quality you would get.
@sunshdw looks like you are quite knowledgeable on the Kaleidoscope, is my understanding of its capabilities correct? Hoping I’m actually wrong, if it supported Netflix and other services, delivered it in a 1 bit to 1 bit conversion, uncompressed, now we are taking, would be awesome but I think the compression starts with the streaming apps / services.
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I would try borrowing a 3-way center channel from Paradigm, model 70C. This is a size that should fit where your Kanta Center is now, without necessitating any rearranging of components. Dial in tonal profile using your AVP’s PEQ that smooths any deviation between the Kanta No 2 voicing and the 70C’s…then listen to some soundtracks. I think you will be pleased with what a center channel can do that eliminates the phase cancellation that comes from 2 way MTM designs, no matter their cost.
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You have a very common issue once you expand from 5.1. Also think Marantz HT receivers make this worse. You can always raise the gain on the center channel, but that can lead to it being out of balance, when panning dialog will change the volume.
Almost all HT receivers have "dynamic range" adjustment. Find the setting and play with it. What it does is change the DB difference between the lowest sound and the highest sound. All multi-ch movies are set to be played at "reference volume" at this volume the dialog will be crisp and clear, but it will also be shaking the walls when any action happens. To compensate for this, you adjust the dynamic range. You will get the dialog volume boost, it will balance the lowest low and highest high out. Mine is set to low most of the time, have no dialog issues at all.
Also when doing room correction, you can select the volume to adjust to. Reference volume is default. That will set it all up to be played at a loud volume. Reference on a Marantz receiver is "0DB" My volume is usually in the 30's when watching a movie.
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@sunshdw Yes, I agree the cost of the UMIK is $79. If you go through the "put it in your cart and pay" process, there is the tariff and shipping to deal with. Been there, done that a few times with the changing tariffs. Amazon et al sell it for $139, which is the same cost as buying directly, except you save shipping time from Hong Kong.
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@mm1tt77 Yes I am versed in KScape, it's a fantastic product. You would correct that in the cases of a stream only movie or TV show so, no, the KScape wouldn't work.
KScape isn't an app based product like an AppleTV. Meaning you don't loads apps onto it in order to access content, they are direct to the content. Here's a link to their store if you want to look around at what movies and tv stuff they have.
https://www.kaleidescape.com/movie-store/
You can rent or buy whatever they have so functionally it works like Apple+ or Prime or whatever else.
There's a lot to it and I could go on and on but I'll spare the boredom :-)
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@soix
I’d still try disabling the center speaker and trying a phantom center, because if that sounds clearer/better it might indicate a problem with the center speaker.
Absolutely agree. If you have a good pair of main speakers (ones with a big 'sweet' spot, a centre speaker only contributes to comb filtering, especially if it is designed like a D'Appolito array on its side (most are)!
Marantz AV gear during its Audessey set up phase will detect the lack of centre speaker and add the centre signal to front left and front right.
Oh, at least in Australia, video streaming services have woeful sound quality in general. If anyone thinks 4K when streamed is the same as 4K from a silver disk ... just look at the bit rates
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Last night during my evening HT session, armed with the information graciously offered here, I listened with a more critical ear. Overall, I have to admit the center speaker's output is very good. Dialog is clear and generally intelligible. Enough so that I could turn off the subtitles? No.
Then why fix what isn't broken? I spend an awful lot of time and money tinkering, tweaking and upgrading to improve sound, so why not try to improve upon the middling dialog we are so often served?
Reflecting on the day to day, I long for the ability to add subtitles to normal conversations (I wish there was a remote to mute some conversations, but that's a whole other story) and therein, methinks, lies the problem: aging ears. My hearing is good enough, and a recent audiology test showed I am not yet a candidate for hearing aids. However, I do find myself missing bits of conversation because someone's head is turned away from me while speaking, they don't speak loud enough, or ambient/ background noise interferes. Thus, it appears the problem is me, not the system.
I sat on the floor for a time yesterday to have the center speaker pointing directly at me, and it helped somewhat. Moving between the couch and the floor, the difference was very subtle, but it indicates speaker position could be improved. With the addition of a new amp and change in the placement of one of the subwoofers, I have to run Audyssey again. That will be a good time to experiment with the phantom center. I also fiddled with the EQ and bumped up the enhanced dialog mode one notch, from medium to high, on Marantz. @mswale , my volume is typically around 40 when watching. Depending on the source, I might have to increase it to 35, but not much more (unless no one else is home).
Considering my recent purchases, getting a new center speaker is out of the question, particularly as mine works well enough. A more logical investment is a new AV rack to provide more flexibility for equipment placement, particularly for the center channel. And, in a few months when Black Friday rolls around, Dirac. The Kscape is an interesting concept but I'm not ready to go that route. Had I not recently acquired the Apple TV-X, I might have viewed it differently.
Robert
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@traubr sounds like you are on the right track. If it’s your hearing, the answers probably reside in speaker placement, room treatment and understanding what frequencies you have a harder time hearing along with what make it more difficult to hear. Some great advice you received from others was to get Dirac and have a professional calibrate your HT for you. That’s probably going to provide the biggest leap by far relative to replacing the center or other gear. Hearing the dialogue is more about how to tailor your system to work around your loss of hearing, which is both about knowing what frequencies you have a more difficult time hearing and what frequencies you can hear that may make it harder, overall to decipher dialogue.
You’ve got great ideas and a great approach lined up.
I am curious about the Apple TV X, what are your thoughts? Noticible difference in picture and sound? Is it as good as physical media? I had never heard about it prior to this thread, I researched it a bit and was difficult to understand why the mods would provide such improvements, I read threads where the creator, engineer repeatedly talks about the quality of parts, time spent developing but then says he really can’t explain why it has better audio beyond less jitter and that he has even less of an explanation of why the picture is noticeably improved. The mods all seem legit and inline with what you would see some do in audio with digital, removing noise, upgrading the power supply. What’s different though is you can feed a DAC a variety of audio formats along with uncompressed, lossless files. The time you put into removing noise, jitter, in an audio only set up in theory maximizes utilization of the lossless file in its purest form. That’s not really achievable with the Apple TV which makes it all the more interesting in finding out if it provides the improvements it claims to. Seems like the improvements could also highlight flaws in the Audio and Video due to compression that the algorithms used for both are designed to cover up.
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OP, Thank you for your thoughts after your listening session.
Are you volume constrained? I often have to listen to our HT with my partner in a nearby room... and hence have to have the volume turned way down. So, sometimes I need to turn on the subtitles. But bump the voiume and all is clear. One of the issues with movies are the huge difference in volume between action scenes and dialogue scenes. Whispering dialogue and then crescendos of gun fire and music. Actually our sound bar in the bedroom HT has a setting to equalize the highs and lows so there are not as big a difference.
The ability to pick speech out of a conversation, is a known thing... and one of the first challenges as your hearing gets worse I have heard. I believe the new Apple ear buds, do and audio test and then equalize and specifically try and improve the ability to highlight conversation. Perhaps this could help when you have to have the volume turned down.
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@ghdprentice, these days I listen at "relatively" normal levels versus in the days of yore when I would crank the system to get maximum surround effect and be "blown away" by it. For example, when I listen to music or watch a series, I am around 70db. I enjoy an action flick as much as the next person and will increase the volume to get sucked into it, within reason. Setting the volume so the neighbors down the road can hear what's playing on my system is in my past. I will admit to occasionally sticking my favorite music DVDs in (The Who Live at Royal Albert Hall and Cream's Reunion Concert at Royal Albert Hall) and letting 'em rip, hearing be damned.
The Marantz has Dynamic Volume, which adjusts playback volume automatically between loud and soft sounds. I settled on middle ground as best/ least onerous. It helps, but depending on the source, there will always be programs that are challenging.
I dislike stuff in my ears, far prefer headphones to buds, and when all is said and done, if subtitles are what allows me to watch, listen and enjoy, then thank goodness I can still see and read them in smaller font from across the room.
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@mm1tt77 , the Apple TV-X is a conundrum for me. It was disparaged above, but I appreciate it nonetheless, despite the price of admission. How does it work? Secret sauce. The engineer is quite experienced in the video world and passionate in what he does. He will not say what specific changes he’s made inside a typical Apple device, aside from a standalone power supply that is critical, and I don’t blame him. His passion and expertise come across readily in the WBF thread, link here. I pored over that lengthy thread before I invested, and was finally convinced to push forward, despite their no backsies policy—you buy it, you own it, no home trial, no credit cards.
I’ve been through many iterations of TV streamers: Roku, Fire TV sticks, Fire TV Cube and Nvidia Shield. I’m not an Apple person and avoided the Apple TV devices. My last streamer battle was the new Fire Cube versus Shield, and the Shield won due to its AI ability to slightly improve video, and menu. Why can you spend tens of thousands for music streamers, but TV streamers are under $200? Well, an opportunity to spend way more presented itself.
When I first got the ATVX, I was underwhelmed and kicking myself for being sucked in. I reached out to both the seller and engineer, and they counseled patience. It took a month, but during that time the ATVX composed itself in its new surroundings and finally showed its mettle. I have a six-year-old Sony Bravia TV, and the picture has always been its strong suit. The picture now is nothing short of outstanding, so much vibrancy, color and definition. Clarity when streaming is better than 4K videos played on my 4K player (what a waste that was). If you are familiar with The Bear on Hulu, a great deal of their episodes are close-ups of the actor’s faces. The picture now is so clear, you can count every pore. Per advice of the seller, after the month, I put the Nvidia Shield back into the system for comparison. Yikes, what a difference! Where I thought the Nvidia was excellent before, it paled in comparison to the ATVX, just no contest.
Sound is a different story. Whereas ATVX gives video a significant boost, the sound is perhaps a bit better, but still does not compare to such as True HD or Atmos on a recorded disk. As many here have pointed out, blame compressed audio when streaming.
Interestingly, the newest Apple TV iteration will debut in a month or two or three, and purportedly it contains an upgrade to pass native audio, rather than process it on the device. This, according to the cognoscenti, will result in better audio quality. I believe that change is a software upgrade, so Apple devices like the ATVX will benefit as well. Btw, the engineer strongly cautions against automatic upgrades, as some wreak havoc on his modifications. He wants to test them first, then will alert his user community when it’s OK to update the software. He has not offered info on the coming upgrades, so the value of my investment is still unsettled.
The ATVX has improved my TV streaming. Transformative? No, but an improvement. Note that I also upgraded my ethernet cable from the network switch to it, and that made a nice improvement as well. Plus, I use a good power cord. Beauty, and value, are in the eye of the beholder. Glad to answer more questions, even via message, so as not to bore others.
Robert
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OP,
Thanks for sharing about your ATVX experience... wow. I had no idea folks modified these... wow $2.5K. We have Two Bravias and two Fire Cubes, Apple TVs and a Cable box. One of the Apple and Amazon boxes get upgraded every year so they stay in our house two years. Our picture is great, to me. Sonically our HT sounds great, but I find video and audio at the same time very distracting so incremental improvements in picture aren't as important to me. Besides I'm sure I'll be trading our 77" OLED for a 88" or similar soon.
Great to hear about the nuances of what you have done.
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@traubr thanks for all the detail in the Apple TV-X. That was really in depth and informative. I even learned something new about a new software update for Apple TV’s, passing the soundtrack through natively. Good luck with the center channel journey, you inspired me to look into trying my hand at building a new center channels I’ve got a Focal 800V center at the moment.
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In light of the flurry of information and ideas in this thread, during my HT session last night I came to realize the system sounds pretty darned good. There is nothing wrong with tweaking and wringing all you can out of the system to overcome perceived deficits, and I am now armed with thoughts and strategies, so thank you all for that. I even felt the center channel worked well. Stuff to play with when the weather gets cold and I'm forced to play indoors...
One of my takeaways from the ATVX thread was how impressed HTers with really nice OLEDs or projectors were after their investment. The pending Apple TV upgrade has me concerned because the new off-the-shelf device may bridge enough of the gap as to make an AVTX superfluous. I am eager to hear the engineer's thoughts, as I'm not likely to buy the new ATV and run a comparison. It's the problem we all face of rapidly changing technology: products purchased a few years ago are superseded by new and improved stuff at potentially lower cost. Interestingly, the engineer stated often in the thread that the ATV version he modifies is the best that Apple has produced, in a sturdy case that accommodates/ enables the modifications. A few months time will tell whether my TV streamer victory was pyrrhic.
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OP
I had the same problem which you had. in my case, I just adjusted the DSP settings and re-arrange the position of the front channel. One thing I did differently is that I use REW to study the frequency response of the center channel at the listening position. this allowed me to visualize what I am hearing to what actually is being generated by the speaker. with that, i tweaked all the settings on auddesy and REW to guide me. problem solved
good luck
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This got me thinking about the volume I listen to when my partner is awake in a room on the other side of the house. So last night I measured.
Quiet dialog is about 45db and I can differentiate it virtually every word. In the natural flow of dialog it gets to 50 db... occasionally peaking at 55. Any quieter and I start loosing words.
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@joeycastillo, your info motivated me to get a microphone for REW. Once it arrives, I have to work out how to use the software  . I plan to also use the microphone for when I get Dirac, as they typically offer a Black Friday discount. Thanks,
Robert
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@traubr
I only have used UMIK for REW. maybe there are others, but I only use UMIK
and using REW, I was amazed what i saw on REW when placed on my sitting position. in my case, the frequency response had a lot of Dips and cancellations.
i just had to play around the DSP settings of auddesey and re-positioning the center channel and doing some room treatments and viola, the Diaglog became clear and i guess more dynamic. and REW showed me the changes.. i guess i just luck out and my problem was an easily fix.
again, YMMV.
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Op, I have been playing with toe for 2 channel music in on my mains based upon a chatGBT recommendation. As a result, sound stage was more “locked in”.
However, side benefit was improved dialog when using my system as 7.2.2 HT. Worth a try for your system.
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My speaker manufacturer recommends toe-in and I started that way. As the front L/R speakers are the mains for both HT and audio, I found toe-in was limiting the audio side. I got a very helpful CD from PS Audio (there are others out there) to dial in the sound for stereo. In my less than ideal space, where more toe in focused sound in the center, less toe in, e.g., facing more forward, created a wider and deeper stereo sound stage. With changes in equipment and cables, my speakers now face forward, and sound as good as they ever have with stereo. Go figure. Audyssey room correction helps to offset any imbalance for HT. There's always room for improvement, and I'm working on that.
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@ghdprentice, your thinking got me thinking about volume, so I measured it last night. Whereas my typical listening volume was mid 40dB, I increased it to mid 50's, and it was a stark improvement for both dialog and background sound/ music for HT; it really started to blossom. At the higher level it was not too loud to disturb the household, and was far more pleasurable. Yay!
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@traubr
Hi Robert
Looking at your photo of your setup, I am interested in the number of drivers you have and their very close proximity to each other.
Hearing loss as one ages typically affects the higher frequencies, and we typically find it hard to differentiate between words that start with “unspoken consonants” like s, t and f. That’s definitely an area where my audiometrist tests my understanding of spoken words!
An unspoken consonant does not use the vocal cords, and typically occupies frequencies between 2,000 and 8,000-Hz. The full wavelength at these frequencies is between 17-centimetres and 4-centimetres and half wavelength is therefore between about 4 inches and one inch
Now if the pathlength between your ear and two drivers playing the same frequency differs by half a wavelength, the result is complete cancellation of the sound. There is a very good video explaining this effect here: Discover the Surprising Flaw in Center Channel Speakers - YouTube .
A couple of experiments you might like to try involve reducing the number of drivers you have at the front of your system. You could disengage the centre channel, or disengage the left and right speakers and the front height speakers. Do these options make speech clearer?
Another thing you could try as a temporary experiment is to stand the centre speaker on its end.
I have a 4.4.1 Marantz-based set up, and have deliberately chosen not to use a centre speaker. However, my main front speakers emulate point-sources of sound, and have exceptional imaging and very large ‘sweet’ areas.
For several decades, I suffered from continual tinnitus – I can remember the moment it suddenly switched on. But almost as suddenly, it went away again. Of course, it was competing with those s, t and f sounds! I hope your tinnitus goes away in time ...
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Op, how ChatGPT described the benefits of toe in:
- No or minimal toe-in → wider, more relaxed soundstage, softer treble, less imaging precision.
- Moderate toe-in (drivers aimed just past your shoulders) → balance between width and image focus, slightly more energy in upper mids/treble.
- Full toe-in (aimed directly at your ears) → most precise imaging, slightly brighter tonal balance, more “in your head” presentation.
My speakers recommended starting with no to limited toe in. I went with moderate.
While the soundstage was slightly reduced, 2 channel imaging & HT dialog was significantly improved.
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