I know this is off topic for the A'gon, but I thought my fellow gear enthusiasts had an opinion. I'm looking for a simple, narrow espresso machine. Reliability is important. I have a Nespresso Vertuo which I really like but lately I've been roasting my own coffee and wanted a more traditional machine.
As a first espresso machine, I recommend the semi-automatic Breville Barrista Express BES870XL. I use it daily and have found it to be a solid machine. After 20 years, I’ve only had to replace the pump for $24 and a few hours of my time.
It has an integrated grinder which is pretty good. I weigh out the beans and fill the hopper for each serving.
These machines require a little practice to dial in the espresso shot. That’s a bit of an art unto itself. There are better machines and better grinders, however, that’s a very slippery slope.
I have no doubt these machines appeal to a large segment of gear heads in this forum so you are likely to get some great advice.
Good luck in your search and please keep us posted as to your progress.
Gaggia seems to be the gold standard for value and quality without whistles and bells.
It does not get simpler and narrower than this: https://flairespresso.com/product/neo-flex which I have, as well as a DeLonghi. La Pavoni is also narrow. I tried fancy espresso machines, they were not reliable and insignificant quality differences.
One of the best espressos I ever had was on an old simple hand pulled machine. I can't imagine those cost much. The other great one I distinctly remember was a glitzy coffee bar in Palermo, near the docks, that had Illy branded all over the shop-- assume the macchina was also Illy but don't remember. We have a quality burr grinder here but do pour overs- that's how I've been making coffee for 50 years at home. I think our current bean comes from Costa Rica- lots of flavor but not super high caffeine.
AHhh, ok so I don't want LED/LCD diplsays but I was thinking of something with a built in water tank, milk frother. Not thinking about the mechanical types, but if others want to discuss sure.
@rhg3 Those look very nice, I will look for one without a grinder though since I already have one. The Bambino has been recommended to me as well and looks like a solid contender, especially for size.
Nice to know affordable replacement parts are available.
@Erik_squires- Yes, I’ll try to find a photo. They are referred to as "manual" machines. There's a whole bunch on the Net about them. You have to boil the water, grind the beans, etc. The machine is just used to 'pull' the shot into a cup.
@2005 I’d had enough of terrible expensive espresso. Sprung for a Rancilio Silvia and Rocky grinder. Brass boiler commercial parts in a consumer machine. Like our audio equipment, stretch the budget just a little, and you’ll never be disappointed. Google it. Legendary machine. Don’t go short on the grinder as it’s pivotal. Double shot mocha every morning. Tube rolling = playing with different beans.
I am sure you know this but those Nespressos are not espresso machines at all. Basically they are a nicer k cup setup.
I have been roasting beans for many years so if you are that geeked out already a Gaggia is pretty much a great starting point. The rancio Silvia being another good line to look at.
You also need an excellent grinder and the sky is the limit. The “least” grinder that will do the proper job is a Baratza Virtuosa. I own 2 Virtuosas, both purchased used. Great mid level grinder and Baratza is a fantastic company on the support side as well.
Another Rancilio Silvia and Rocky grinder owner here. Great machines. Totally hands-on espresso maker. Kind of like spinning vinyl with a completely manual turntable. You gotta love it.
GROSCHE Milano Stovetop Espresso Maker Moka Pot 3 espresso Cup - 5 oz, Blue -Moka Espresso Coffee Maker Stove top coffee maker Moka Italian espresso greca coffee maker brewer percolator
My favorite is the Olympia Cremina not inexpensive but they have been making since the 1960s and can be found refurbished under $2k. It is one of the smallest top tier machines available.
We had bought a Breville for around $500 a few years back. We could never get the foam part right and lost interest. We gave it to one of my sons whose gf used to be a Starbucks Barista. They couldn’t get it right either.
I roast my own beans too and have been using a manual La Pavoni machine for years, it takes a bit of practice but well worth the effort. I have a few friends with the automated machines and they think mine tastes best. No one ever asks for sugar.
it becomes an enjoyable ritual like spinning vinyl.
Some laughs. Just for my morning cup of coffee; here's what I use. Going on 6 years now. And yes, I know it doesn't make espresso, but as drip coffee makers go, worth every penny of the $20 I spent on it.
The Silvia is a great machine. I had one for years, now with an ECM one. Any Barista grinder also. The grinder is paramount. No Nespresso, not ever. Get your green beans from sweetmarias.com. Not sweetmaria (porn site).
Just before we flew to Hawaii, my new partner took me to the local cafe in Sydney and said it would be better than any coffee we could find in the US. Not quite true, we found an Aussie aficionado who actually knew coffee in Honolulu.
Meanwhile, the Swiss-made Jura automatic machines do a reasonable job, if you don't want to spring for a built-in Miele. Nespresso wins for consistency, but the Vertuo machines are digital, reading the appropriate program from barcodes under the rim of the capsule.
Profitec Pro 400. Buy it once and it will last a lifetime. I have a Quickmill and love my machine, not sure I ever need to upgrade from here. I roast twice a month, such a fine time to enjoy the day and be outside!
Espresso is very like high end audio. Some treat audio as a passionate hobby while others just want to have simple background music. Like audio gear everything matters with coffee. Coffee beans are an agricultural product with tons of variety. Origin, light/dark roast, age of beans, altitude, humidity, grind settings, grind time, burr size, burr angles, puck prep (tamping) extraction temp, extraction time, water pressure, milk frothing, and more. There are a lot of factors that need to go well. This is NOT a frustration free pursuit. Automatic machines attempt to mitigate some factors but most users will waste money on trial and error. It is better to study this carefully and choose wisely. The looming tariffs might make this even more complicated.
I have two espresso stations with about $15K invested. I see you are already roasting your own beans. That puts you way beyond the basic morning cup of joe arena.
The number one mistake I see folks new to espresso is the focus on the actual espresso machine. The real deliberated focus needs to be on the grinder. A few years ago home baristas upgraded to expensive grinders that were designed for coffee shops. Lately the focus is on high performance “single dose” grinders with specific grinder burrs designed for specific results. A really good grinder is like the “source first” concept in audio. I cannot stress this enough: I would rather have a top level grinder and a so-so machine than the other way around.
Grinder technology continues to evolve at a full speed. Getting the latest and greatest can be challenging as manufacturers produce these in smaller numbers with “deposit money down and wait” times.
I would head over to the HomeBarista forum. The devotion, passion, endless debate and angst over price vs performance will 100% remind you of the high end audio forums like Audiogon. This is a massive site/forum with tons of enthusiastic members. All of your questions and concerns have been addressed by many others.
I have owned a La Spaziale S1 for many years. It is a simple, long lasting machine that has everything you need for home use. Very durable.
I also roast my own coffee. Have you tried a French press? With fresh roasted coffee you get the best flavors from the coffee bean oils. These oils evaporate within two weeks after the roast and best enjoyed through a French press. How deep do you want to go down the coffee rabbit hole? 😂
I can second the DeLonghi espresso machine in the reasonably-priced category. I also have one of their dehumdifiers that has lasted much longer than Chinese-made ones.
I use a La Pavoni burr grinder to grind espresso beans. It's loud, but works well.
I have used several "prosumer" machines over the last 25 years, a Rancilio Miss Sylvia HX to a Quick Mill Andreja Premium HX to an Olympia Maximatic (HX) to a LaMarzocco Linea Micra. The most compact with the best performance was the Olympia, it fits nicely on the counter beneath a normal kitchen cabinet with room enough to reach the top of the machine. The LaMarzocco has a similar height but is wider, but it also is a dual boiler and is self-filling from a tank. I can endorse the Olympia both for compactness and build quality. I have had mine 13 years and they are extremely reliable and also easily serviced with simple tools.
The number one mistake I see folks new to espresso is the focus on the actual espresso machine. The real deliberated focus needs to be on the grinder. A few years ago home baristas upgraded to expensive grinders that were designed for coffee shops. Lately the focus is on high performance “single dose” grinders with specific grinder burrs designed for specific results. A really good grinder is like the “source first” concept in audio. I cannot stress this enough: I would rather have a top level grinder and a so-so machine than the other way around.
Something like a Bambino Plus with automatic frothing and a Niche Zero (excellent workflow) would be a good match. For single boiler and long-term reliability - Profitec Go would be a good consideration, especially if you’re only doing occasional milk drinks.
I wanted to +1 those who recommended the Baratza grinders. I have a bargain version and the company is excellent to deal with and replacement parts are very reasonable not to mention the outstanding documentation they have posted in the past for difficult upgrades.
Baratza is owned by Breville. They make a ton of models. A good “sweet spot” option is the Sette series.
Depends on your expectations and budget of course. More serious espresso nerds move on from Baratza due to the loud noise and the plastic gearbox that can fail over time. I regard this level of grinder to be in the same position that SONOS audio kit has: too expensive for many, just right for some and largely ignored by serious users.
Depends on your expectations and budget of course. More serious espresso nerds move on from Baratza due to the loud noise and the plastic gearbox that can fail
The noise is how the cats know when food is served. Also, there is a nylon gear in there that is deliberately meant to break in case of a stone. It’s like a fuse. It blows to prevent the rest of the parts from breaking. Cheap to replace. There was also a significant upgrade several years ago, so not sure how "plastic" these models really are but after 12 years the only thing I ever had to replace was the rotary switch which was $5.
Honestly though, if they make a slightly less noisy version I’d probably consider it.
The noise and nylon gear parts are one thing. But doubling your budget gets you into the arena of reduced ground retention. The legion of modern single dose grinders are just better. Period!
They cost more and you should measure your grams in and grams out with an accurate scale.
This sounds like a lot of faff and it is. But if you enjoy switching between dark roasts and light roasts and want to avoid a lot of frustration with messy bad shots this is the way to go.
A bottomless portafilter will make you scream for mercy until you get your whole system dialed in and then the performance, shot constancy and taste satisfaction will reveal itself. Just like the oft said “the veil was lifted” in the audiophile world.
A good bag of fresh beans will come in a 12oz bag. Freshness is key as beans age very quickly. Age is a major variable. Your taste preference might range from dark roast to light roasts. The lighter the roast the more demanding it becomes on your grinder, in terms of of pulling a great shot. Darker roasts create more oily residue in your grinder.
I like medium roasts with smaller beans.
I weigh my beans in a dish with a performance espresso scale. 18 grams in with almost no headroom in a bottomless portafilter. The “God shot“ should take about 27 seconds with no fines or spritzing with great crema. The fine control of your grinder setting becomes the all important variable in a system of many variables.
Pulling a bad shot and instantly knowing which way to to go with your grinder setting becomes the proven path to espresso happiness…
Ok, now I'm dying for a God Shot from photomax's gear and Eriksquire's beans! If I head down this path as much as audio my wife will definitely take notice. Tea drinker. I'll have to live vicariously for now. But yeah, grind is most important. Erik I know you're a DIY guy... about what does it take in cost to dabble in roasting? Maybe after I get rid of my beer-making gear. I laterally mentioned this to her today.
I have & enjoy the Rancillio Silvia Pro X. It’s the real deal, made in Italy, about $2000. High quality single head machine w/ two boilers like all quality machines have. It’s simple, works very well, not too big but pretty heavy. Definitely worth a consideration in the price range.
Erik I know you’re a DIY guy... about what does it take in cost to dabble in roasting?
@akgwhizTo be fair only with speakers and cables. My days of custom modding amps is over.
Of all my DIY hobbies, nothing has been more cost effective than roasting my own beans. I also buy from SweetMarias.com and the prices there vs. at the store or coffee shop are superb.
I use a very basic Fresh Roast which gets rave reviews from my neighbors. They were not big coffee drinkers but when they had their second child I gave them some coffee and now it has become indispensable part of their routine.
It is limited in size (110g) and in my mind can’t do dark roasts consistently, but once you dial in the settings you can pretty much do a batch at a time and forget about it. It’s also about the same width as my grinder, so while I complain each time that I can’t roast 500g at a time (near a pound) I also like that it doesn’t take any more room in my very small kitchen. Also, because the batches are small the smoke is as well.
If you buy from SweetMarias you can get it with a sample set of beans.
OK, now that I think about it, I did just see a pair of speakers in Stereophile that used largely the same drivers I do selling for $125,000.... so maybe that's cost effective too? Of course, that assumes the designer did a half decent job in the crossover design.
Espresso is definitely the cheaper hobby. A TOTL "home" machine, a LaMarzocco GS3 as an example, is far from cheap and takes up some kitchen counter real estate, but as a daily-use device costs less than an average home 2-channel system. Of course you don’t have to spend that to get a consistently excellent cup, one better than most coffee shops will pour. It just takes a good selection of beans, a good grinder and a machine that heats well and consistently. Some swear by lever machines. I have had one, and it was OK, but I prefer a quiet electric pump and to not mix the brewing water with the steaming water. PID controls are great, but there are very good machines that do just fine without them. For a grinder, I have been using a Mazzer Mini E (Typ 2) for over a decade and it has been excellent. (I had a Mazzer Major for a short while, massive for home use, but total industrial overkill and I sold it.) One of the requirements I have is a water reservoir (no plumb-in, please) and it has to fit on a normal depth counter-top under a normal height kitchen cabinet. I am not interested in a machine that requires a 20A 240V supply or an open area due to device height, so my dream of having a near-vintage Elektra Semiautomatica Murano, a lovely machine I must admit, will have to wait.
I have just entered the world of Nespresso as of last Christmas. Definitely better than K cup crap. Always hated that K cups were plastic and heating anything in plastic is dubious to one's health. Little more expensive, and you need a frother, but all in for 150. Well worth it.
Jura E-4 owner here. One-button gets your beans ground, and a pretty decent shot of espresso. Will also brew pretty much any kind of coffee you'd like. This model does not do milk/foam. No interest in that.
I do wish it had a hopper that was removable to make it easier to switch beans.
Not cheap, but we are pretty happy, and not too geeky about coffee.
Son owns a chain of coffee shops, so we have access to great beans. We go to one of his shops if we want a really good shot of espresso. I ask the guy behind the counter one time why their espresso tastes better than what I make a home, and he said "because my machine cost $30K !" Sounded like something I might have heard on this forum.
@goodlistening64- The basics espresso and single cup coffees are good. The flavored, holiday one's are chemical garbage. If you like Jaegermeister though you'd probably enjoy them.
Erik - Yeah, I got a bunch of those for free. Big fail in creating a palatable chocolate flavor. Vanilla is OK with spoon of sugar.
Way too hopeful that the Nespresso could produce a similar Latte Mocha that I can get at the local gas mart. In my case, a Wawa.
A coffee step up, but I do fear the rabbit hole. I once thought I could make a good pizza pie and only needed an Ooni to make it happen. If you are challenged by coffee beans it's probably not a good idea to attempt to conquer dough.
Erik, it's always pleasant to find out the drivers you've bought have a tad more cred than you knew... 👍
Grew up in a family with the percolator was typically standing by. Espresso was the bottom third with bite. Grew up fast in many ways...*G*
Discrimination came later....fortunately...
Big Question that hangs over this junction function is:
Which could you 'cold turkey'?
Coffee
or Audio ?
If your life depended upon it, some ghastly fate upon you....
Twenty-five years ago i started an IT consultancy gig at Starbucks HQ. My on-boarding consisted of a two hour lesson on coffee making in the break room, one of many in the building. Each was equipped with a 4-head Marzocco machine, 3 types of beans in grinders, non-fat, 1%, 2%, whole, half & half, and full cream, plus soy. Oat, and almond milk, and a bunch of flavorings. All free, all day. Needless to say, barista skills were admired, even if you never set foot in a store. By the time my gig ended, 6 months later, I knew my way around an espresso machine. Today, I'm happy with a fresh ground French Press in a combo stainless French Press/ thermal travel mug. I will be very sad when I wear it out. On the run, a Cortado (double short latte, extra-hot) is my drink of choice. My discretionary income goes into my hifis and home theater. Espresso Machine or new 4K Projector? Upgrade my grinder or a new MC cart? Tough choices.
La Pavoni Europiccola...worked great for 25 years, replaced gaskets once myself following a Utube video...takes up minimum shelf space...authentic original Italian espresso...took me 20+ tries to perfect my technique but I love having full control with a manual pull machine. Plan to get it repaired or replace it with similar one.
A big fork in the road here is if you enjoy pure espresso drinks or drinks with milk. If you like cappaccinos or lattes then a quality double boiler machine is a must.
I have owned several machines over the years. My main station has the Lamorzacco Linea Mini. It does an amazing job with producing great espresso shots and is super fast and powerful with frothing milk.
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