@dman777   Linea Mini is very interesting machine.  It has unusual design being heat exchanger machine with two boilers.  I guess professionals believe that brewing water has to come fresh.  They call water in the boiler "dead water".  In my ECM Mechanika Max brewing water comes thru heat exchanger placed inside od large steam boiler.  Brewing water is fresh, but temperature is dropping (cold water coming in), especially with double coffee.  In Linea Mini water comes thru two heat exchangers - thru steam boiler and then thru brew boiler.  Steam boiler heats up exchanger to high temperature while brew boiler heat exchanger equalizes it.  That way brewing water is fresh and temperature is even, while steam boiler is at max.  Linea Mini was over my budged (and space on the countertop - it is big), but perhaps one day.  Everything that Marzocco makes is top quality.

Also, I would recommend a compak k6 grinder over a baratza. Mine has lasted over 13 years

How much are you looking to spend? I recommend for starters a rincilio Silvia. Mine is over 13 years old and still works. I keep it as an extra now as I have a linea mini. But I used it everyday for like 10 years I think before I upgraded.  The boiler is marine brass which is better so you don’t get lead.

Also, the Sylvia makes espresso probably 90% is good as the mini. You really just get convenience with something more expensive.

I’ve gone through a few machines, first some Starbucks labeled OEM machine over 30 years ago, next a couple E61 group machines, a single boiler Quick Mill Andreja Premium followed by a double boiler Izzo Alex Duetto IV Plus. My daughter uses the Izzo and I am rebuilding the Andreja Premium for my son. The E61 group based systems have been around a long time, many manufacturers use the group, making parts and repairs readily available and relatively simple.

I still think an E61 group based system is a solid choice.

With the coffee/beverage bar my wife added when remodeling the kitchen, I negotiated a Slayer Espresso Machine, made right in my hometown of Seattle. My grinder is a KafaTek  MC6, another product manufactured near Seattle. The convenience of having the water supply and drain plumbed has been a welcome addition. Using the Slayer and even my previous E61 group machines is like playing a record for me vs streaming some AI generated play list. I understand many like a software driven machine like the Decent but it was the last type of machine I wanted on our coffee bar. I enjoy the manual control of the espresso making experience and can’t imagine having a big iPad screen ruining my morning ritual Chi.  

I have never owned a lever machine and should have planned for the possibility when we put in our coffee/beverage bar last year. I may still be able to find a way to make one work if I get the urge to try one.

@kijanki  - you are right about the paper filters, but apparently the oils they filter out are what makes coffee bad for your heart.  If you drink filtered coffee coffee is generally good for you.  

I use ECM Mechanika Max with flow control (rotary pump), plumbed with Rancillo Rocky single dose grinder.  This grinder works like new for over two decades, but grinder is extremely important.  Uneven grind produces acidic (too coarse) and bitter coffee (too fine) at the same time.  I plan to upgrade grinder one day.  Something like Mazzer will be used one day by your grandkids.

As for the French Press - aromatic oils carry taste, paper filters remove them.

Main question for the Espresso choice is the way they operate. Cheaper ones create pressure either by spring in the portafilter or narrow orfice, while more expensive machines require coffee to be compacted (right grind) to limit flow and create pressure.  Such machines use three way valve to evacuate water form the portafilter after extraction (dry puck emptied to knock box).  These machines require back-flushing and occasional cleaning with chemicals.  Rancilio Sylvia is good simple inexpensive machine with 3-way valve and 58mm portafilter.  

There is a lot to learn/know, and lose money, but it is not as bad as audio.

I use Fellow Opus grinder but I don’t do espresso. Happy with it. For espresso one of my friends uses Gaggia for the last 10 + years and the espresso is delicious - I had it many times. 
For me at home it’s either Cafe Cubano in a Bialetti stovetop moka pot or French Press. When I’m in a hurry Nespresso classic. Narrow, consistent and convenient. Not a bad cup actually. 
 

link to Gaggia https://www.wholelattelove.com/products/gaggia-classic-e24

Baratza is owned by Breville. They make a ton of models. A good “sweet spot” option is the Sette series. 

Depends on your expectations and budget of course. More serious espresso nerds move on from Baratza

Well, as a follow up, the purchase has completely overhauled their parts availability and support so I can no longer recommend Baratza.  They don't respond to requests for help and the parts are drying up.  You used to be able to purchase every single screw that came on your grinder for a reasonable price.  The prices are still reasonable but the availability has dried up to a handful of parts and what retailers may still have in stock. 

I just broke my ring burr holder and needed a new hopper gasket.  Had to order from two different locations.  

I think around 1996, I purchased a Krups il Primo for a few hundred dollars. It still works today and the coffee tastes so much better than from my Bialetti. Parts are still available on eBay. Anyway, not fancy but it makes great tasting espresso and is  very affordable. 

I can echo the recommendation for Jura super automatic machines.  Mine is 9 years old.  It makes pretty good espresso and associated drinks. My habit is to drink 6 or so cups a morning. When I finally replaced a part a year ago, it had made over 14,000 cups. Still going strong.

I second others for the Breville Barista line (express or pro). Used mine the last 7 years...and purchased used. (They're constantly available on used sites all the time and for good value.) Great consumer/prosumer machine for beginning or above average coffee enthusiasts. Upgraded my portafilter to a bottomless with an IMS basket, 53.3mm tamper and puck screen. Pulls great shots consistently and the built-in grinder completes the package. You can spend more, but why at this point?  It literally does almost everything and you still have some control and finesse with every pull. 

Erik - if you’re looking for a smaller footprint and reliable machine, I’d suggest you look at the  ECM mechanica. I have several of their machines (Synchronica (2)  and the Mechanica) for different locations and like them because they’re built by Germans, designed by Italians and ALL of the parts are replaceable. I’ve never had an issue with any of them, but like the idea of being able to use them for decades with modest upkeep. 

2 lattes or espressos in the morning before I do anything. It’s a safety thing,

...a friend back when Starbucks was growing like the fungus amongst us liked to refer to them as 'shooting galleries', a reference to his growing up in NYC....

It's a good thing ( Thanx, Martha ) that the tariff terror is subsiding somewhat...
I'd find the most remote cave poss if the coffee imports pancaked and put the US in a major withdrawal fit...😏

Olympia also uses smaller portafilters (49mm for the Cremina and 54mm for the Maximatic). Both are relatively simple and durable machines capable of excellent results. They aren't cheap, but they are all-metal and built to a standard met by few other machines in the market, and they are scaled for convenient domestic use. Used machines hold value well. The Cremina is a lever machine, which provides a simple and quiet operation. The Maximatic is a pump heat-exchanger machine, which heats brew water from the reservoir separate from the steaming boiler water.

My son got me started two years ago. He’s got a fancy Italian machine. He started with Nespresso too, on a trip to Europe.
 

I came home from his place and bought a Mr. Coffee Espresso maker. I now use the original Flair lever press. I added temperature and pressure gauges to the Mr. Coffee machine while modifying the controls so that I can control the temperature and flow separately. The Mr Coffee doesn’t really make espresso very well, it uses only steam pressure. (Kind of a fancy Moka pot.) Hence the Flair. I use the Mr. Coffee to heat the cup and steam the milk. I’ve got a Baratza for pour overs, but went to a manual grinder for espresso. Spent big dollars on a German Kinu, love it. I hated the loud sound the Barstza makes in the morning when others are still sleeping.

My favorite drink is a good latte. I’ve been trying to do a latte art heart for two years now. I’m getting closer to. . ..

I’m ready for an upgrade, but hesitate to pull the trigger. The Mr. Coffee has a 51mm portafilter, like the DeLongi machines. The Breville machines use a 54mm. Part of the Flair’s genius is the tiny 1-5/8” portafilter all of the above are easier to get good coffee out of than the professional 58mm pucks due to their depth offering more control and dwell time. In my opinion.
 

I’m sure you’ll have fun figuring it all out, Mr. Squires.  

I am a three year owner of a Jura E8 super-automatica machine with the milk frother and cooler.  I am surprised only one other poster mentioned owning a Jura as I expected more comments about that brand from this clientele. My E8 makes wonderful flat whites and espressos (my drinks of choice) and I use good locally roasted beans too. I was not cheap but I don't know how I have survived all these years without it...LOL

Agree with so many posters on this thread. There’s definitely overlap and no surprise that there’s connections between espresso and audio, especially when we look at the amount of variables (conical vs flat burr, light roast vs dark roast, Hx vs single and dual boiler, milk drinks vs straight espresso, bottomless vs spouted portafilter, various baskets, RDT & WDT, group head design, etc.) at play and approach to pursuing new and different purchases. 

+1 @chenry regarding cost and entry into the home espresso hobby. +1 @asvjerry for the link back to the Critical Listening and Altered States thread - definitely some similarities (ritualistic for myself regarding the process of espresso and enjoyment of end product while listening with a “buzz”).

More serious espresso nerds move on from Baratza due to the loud noise and the plastic gearbox that can fail over time. 
 

Full circle back to audio, I have a Baratza Sette 30 with micro adjustment mod that’s now used exclusively for our Moccamaster. I specifically moved on from the grinder for espresso because of how loud it was, in addition to its high-frequency pitch level - at one point I started wearing ear plugs. Measured the decibal levels this morning: 92dB peaks (87dB to 90dB constant)!

Espresso Machine or new 4K Projector? Upgrade my grinder or a new MC cart? Tough choices. 

Thanks for the honesty, @panzrwagn ...👍

Yes, it 'tis....but certain other addictions have made life in these Kinda United States of Beings into a Möbius loop...
You can view them here...

....I've a copy of that...and a loop that I found in a Target'.
Makes a great headphone stand.
The poster a standard warning to the fold.... ;)

Critical listening and altered states ought to be expanded beyond the 'more common uncommon'....but I tend towards practical cynicism these daze...

Buzz on, y'all

J

A big fork in the road here is if you enjoy pure espresso drinks or drinks with milk. If you like cappaccinos or lattes then a quality double boiler machine is a must. 

I have owned several machines over the years. My main station has the Lamorzacco Linea Mini. It does an amazing job with producing great espresso shots and is super fast and powerful with frothing milk.

https://home.lamarzoccousa.com/product/linea-mini/?srsltid=AfmBOorGIA9TDQOX8ij6WKlrgiPauraKyY2kkxCno9N8fW9jdK8rH6bf

La Pavoni Europiccola...worked great for 25 years, replaced gaskets once myself following a Utube video...takes up minimum shelf space...authentic original Italian espresso...took me 20+ tries to perfect my technique but I love having full control with a manual pull machine. Plan to get it repaired or replace it with similar one.

Ever thought of getting a big class A amplifier to heat the water and just do pour overs?
 

🤓😁🎶

So,not to rain on the parade of French presses, but the coffee that comes out of it is the least healthy for you. 

Coffee has health benefits but only if it's filtered.  The paper filters leach the harmful oils out of the brew which a French press does not. 

Enjoy the Coffee!! :)

Twenty-five years ago i started an IT consultancy gig at Starbucks HQ. My on-boarding consisted of a two hour lesson on coffee making in the break room, one of many in the building. Each was equipped with a 4-head Marzocco machine, 3 types of beans in grinders, non-fat, 1%, 2%, whole, half &  half, and full cream, plus soy. Oat, and almond milk, and a bunch of flavorings. All free, all day. Needless to say, barista skills were admired, even if you never set foot in a store. By the time my gig ended, 6 months later, I knew my way around an espresso machine. Today, I'm happy with a fresh ground French Press in a combo stainless French Press/ thermal travel mug. I will be very sad when I wear it out. On the run, a Cortado (double short latte, extra-hot) is my drink of choice. My discretionary income goes into my hifis and home theater. Espresso Machine or new 4K Projector? Upgrade my grinder or a new MC cart? Tough choices. 

...as was noted, there seems a lot in common for both.... ;)

Erik, it's always pleasant to find out the drivers you've bought have a tad more cred than you knew... 👍
Grew up in a family with the percolator was typically standing by.  Espresso was the bottom third with bite.  Grew up fast in many ways...*G*

Discrimination came later....fortunately...

Big Question that hangs over this junction function is:

Which could you 'cold turkey'?

Coffee

or Audio ?

If your life depended upon it, some ghastly fate upon you....  

Erik - Yeah, I got a bunch of those for free. Big fail in creating a palatable chocolate flavor. Vanilla is OK with spoon of sugar.

Way too hopeful that the Nespresso could produce a similar Latte Mocha that I can get at the local gas mart. In my case, a Wawa.

A coffee step up, but I do fear the rabbit hole. I once thought I could make a good pizza pie and only needed an Ooni to make it happen. If you are challenged by coffee beans it's probably not a good idea to attempt to conquer dough.

@goodlistening64 - The basics espresso and single cup coffees are good.  The flavored, holiday one's are chemical garbage.  If you like Jaegermeister though you'd probably enjoy them.

Jura E-4 owner here.  One-button gets your beans ground, and a pretty decent shot of espresso.  Will also brew pretty much any kind of coffee you'd like.   This model does not do milk/foam.  No interest in that.

I do wish it had a hopper that was removable to make it easier to switch beans.

Not cheap, but we are pretty happy, and not too geeky about coffee.

Son owns a chain of coffee shops, so we have access to great beans.  We go to one of his shops if we want a really good shot of espresso.  I ask the guy behind the counter one time why their espresso tastes better than what I make a home, and he said "because my machine cost $30K !"  Sounded like something I might have heard on this forum.

I have just entered the world of Nespresso as of last Christmas. Definitely better than K cup crap. Always hated that K cups were plastic and heating anything in plastic is dubious to one's health. Little more expensive, and you need a frother, but all in for 150. Well worth it.

Photomax you sure do know a lot about coffee!

Espresso is definitely the cheaper hobby. A TOTL "home" machine, a LaMarzocco GS3 as an example, is far from cheap and takes up some kitchen counter real estate, but as a daily-use device costs less than an average home 2-channel system. Of course you don’t have to spend that to get a consistently excellent cup, one better than most coffee shops will pour. It just takes a good selection of beans, a good grinder and a machine that heats well and consistently. Some swear by lever machines. I have had one, and it was OK, but I prefer a quiet electric pump and to not mix the brewing water with the steaming water. PID controls are great, but there are very good machines that do just fine without them. For a grinder,  I have been using a Mazzer Mini E (Typ 2) for over a decade and it has been excellent. (I had a Mazzer Major for a short while, massive for home use, but total industrial overkill and I sold it.) One of the requirements I have is a water reservoir (no plumb-in, please) and it has to fit on a normal depth counter-top under a normal height kitchen cabinet. I am not interested in a machine that requires a 20A 240V supply or an open area due to device height, so my dream of having a near-vintage  Elektra Semiautomatica Murano, a lovely machine I must admit, will have to wait.

OK, now that I think about it, I did just see a pair of speakers in Stereophile that used largely the same drivers I do selling for $125,000.... so maybe that's cost effective too?  Of course, that assumes the designer did a half decent job in the crossover design.

Erik I know you’re a DIY guy... about what does it take in cost to dabble in roasting? 

@akgwhiz To be fair only with speakers and cables.  My days of custom modding amps is over. 

Of all my DIY hobbies, nothing has been more cost effective than roasting my own beans.  I also buy from SweetMarias.com and the prices there vs. at the store or coffee shop are superb.

I use a very basic Fresh Roast which gets rave reviews from my neighbors.   They were not big coffee drinkers but when they had their second child I gave them some coffee and now it has become indispensable part of their routine.

It is limited in size (110g) and in my mind can’t do dark roasts consistently, but once you dial in the settings you can pretty much do a batch at a time and forget about it.  It’s also about the same width as my grinder, so while I complain each time that I can’t roast 500g at a time (near a pound) I also like that it doesn’t take any more room in my very small kitchen.  Also, because the batches are small the smoke is as well.

If you buy from SweetMarias you can get it with a sample set of beans.

I have & enjoy the Rancillio Silvia Pro X. It’s the real deal, made in Italy, about $2000. High quality single head machine w/ two boilers like all quality machines have. It’s simple, works very well, not too big but pretty heavy. Definitely worth a consideration in the price range. 

Ok, now I'm dying for a God Shot from photomax's gear and Eriksquire's beans!  If I head down this path as much as audio my wife will definitely take notice.  Tea drinker.  I'll have to live vicariously for now.  But yeah,  grind is most important.  Erik I know you're a DIY guy... about what does it take in cost to dabble in roasting?  Maybe after I get rid of my beer-making gear.  I laterally mentioned this to her today.

A good bag of fresh beans will come in a 12oz bag. Freshness is key as beans age very quickly. Age is a major variable. Your taste preference might range from dark roast to light roasts. The lighter the roast the more demanding it becomes on your grinder, in terms of of pulling a great shot. Darker roasts create more oily residue in your grinder.

I like medium roasts with smaller beans. 

I weigh my beans in a dish with a performance espresso scale. 18 grams in with almost no headroom in a bottomless portafilter. The “God shot“ should take about 27 seconds with no fines or spritzing with great crema. The fine control of your grinder setting becomes the all important variable in a system of many variables. 

Pulling a bad shot and instantly knowing which way to to go with your grinder setting becomes the proven path to espresso happiness…

The noise and nylon gear parts are one thing. But doubling your budget gets you into the arena of reduced ground retention. The legion of modern single dose grinders are just better. Period! 

They cost more and you should measure your grams in and grams out with an accurate scale. 

This sounds like a lot of faff and it is. But if you enjoy switching between dark roasts and light roasts and want to avoid a lot of frustration with messy bad shots this is the way to go.

A bottomless portafilter will make you scream for mercy until you get your whole system dialed in and then the performance, shot constancy and taste satisfaction will reveal itself. Just like the oft said “the veil was lifted” in the audiophile world. 

Depends on your expectations and budget of course. More serious espresso nerds move on from Baratza due to the loud noise and the plastic gearbox that can fail

The noise is how the cats know when food is served.  Also, there is a nylon gear in there that is deliberately meant to break in case of a stone.  It’s like a fuse.  It blows to prevent the rest of the parts from breaking. Cheap to replace. There was also a significant upgrade several years ago, so not sure how "plastic" these models  really are but after 12 years the only thing I ever had to replace was the rotary switch which was $5.

Honestly though, if they make a slightly less noisy version I’d probably consider it.  

Baratza is owned by Breville. They make a ton of models. A good “sweet spot” option is the Sette series. 

Depends on your expectations and budget of course. More serious espresso nerds move on from Baratza due to the loud noise and the plastic gearbox that can fail over time. I regard this level of grinder to be in the same position that SONOS audio kit has: too expensive for many, just right for some and largely ignored by serious users. 

Your mileage may vary…

I wanted to +1 those who recommended the Baratza grinders.  I have a bargain version and the company is excellent to deal with and replacement parts are very reasonable not to mention the outstanding documentation they have posted in the past for difficult upgrades.

Agree with@photomax:

The number one mistake I see folks new to espresso is the focus on the actual espresso machine. The real deliberated focus needs to be on the grinder. A few years ago home baristas upgraded to expensive grinders that were designed for coffee shops. Lately the focus is on high performance “single dose” grinders with specific grinder burrs designed for specific results. A really good grinder is like the “source first” concept in audio. I cannot stress this enough: I would rather have a top level grinder and a so-so machine than the other way around.
 

Something like a Bambino Plus with automatic frothing and a Niche Zero (excellent workflow) would be a good match. For single boiler and long-term reliability - Profitec Go would be a good consideration, especially if you’re only doing occasional milk drinks. 

I have used several "prosumer" machines over the last 25 years, a Rancilio Miss Sylvia HX to a Quick Mill Andreja Premium HX to an Olympia Maximatic (HX) to a LaMarzocco Linea Micra. The most compact with the best performance was the Olympia, it fits nicely on the counter beneath a normal kitchen cabinet with room enough to reach the top of the machine. The LaMarzocco has a similar height but is wider, but it also is a dual boiler and is self-filling from a tank. I can endorse the Olympia both for compactness and build quality. I have had mine 13 years and they are extremely reliable and also easily serviced with simple tools.

I can second the DeLonghi espresso machine in the reasonably-priced category.  I also have one of their dehumdifiers that has lasted much longer than Chinese-made ones.

I use a La Pavoni burr grinder to grind espresso beans.  It's loud, but works well.

I have owned a La Spaziale S1 for many years.  It is a simple, long lasting machine that has everything you need for home use.  Very durable. 
 

I also roast my own coffee.  Have you tried a French press?  With fresh roasted coffee you get the best flavors from the  coffee bean oils.  These oils evaporate within two weeks after the roast and best enjoyed through a French press.  How deep do you want to go down the coffee rabbit hole?  😂

Erik,

Espresso is very like high end audio. Some treat audio as a passionate hobby while others just want to have simple background music. Like audio gear everything matters with coffee. Coffee beans are an agricultural product with tons of variety. Origin, light/dark roast, age of beans, altitude, humidity, grind settings, grind time, burr size, burr angles, puck prep (tamping) extraction temp, extraction time, water pressure, milk frothing, and more. There are a lot of factors that need to go well. This is NOT a frustration free pursuit. Automatic machines attempt to mitigate some factors but most users will waste money on trial and error. It is better to study this carefully and choose wisely. The looming tariffs might make this even more complicated.

I have two espresso stations with about $15K invested. I see you are already roasting your own beans. That puts you way beyond the basic morning cup of joe arena. 

The number one mistake I see folks new to espresso is the focus on the actual espresso machine. The real deliberated focus needs to be on the grinder. A few years ago home baristas upgraded to expensive grinders that were designed for coffee shops. Lately the focus is on high performance “single dose” grinders with specific grinder burrs designed for specific results. A really good grinder is like the “source first” concept in audio. I cannot stress this enough: I would rather have a top level grinder and a so-so machine than the other way around.

Grinder technology continues to evolve at a full speed. Getting the latest and greatest can be challenging as manufacturers produce these in smaller numbers with “deposit money down and wait” times. 

I would head over to the HomeBarista forum. The devotion, passion, endless debate and angst over price vs performance will 100% remind you of the high end audio forums like Audiogon. This is a massive site/forum with tons of enthusiastic members. All of your questions and concerns have been addressed by many others.

Good luck!

Profitec Pro 400. Buy it once and it will last a lifetime. I have a Quickmill and love my machine, not sure I ever need to upgrade from here. I roast twice a month, such a fine time to enjoy the day and be outside!

Just before we flew to Hawaii, my new partner took me to the local cafe in Sydney and said it would be better than any coffee we could find in the US.  Not quite true, we found an Aussie aficionado who actually knew coffee in Honolulu.

Meanwhile, the Swiss-made Jura automatic machines do a reasonable job, if you don't want to spring for a built-in Miele.  Nespresso wins for consistency, but the Vertuo machines are digital, reading the appropriate program from barcodes under the rim of the capsule.

My wife got me a Rok Presso Smart Shot. It is simple and works great for me. I really like it but I may be drinking to much coffee now.