Passive vs Active...Again!

For easy to use room correction,  ARC in the Anthem and Dirac in NAD (other brands too) 

@atmasphere , You can put dipoles closer to the wall but you have to use effective sound deadening behind the speaker. My Sound Labs are three feet off the front wall. The wall behind the speakers is covered with 4" thick acoustic foam. 

@cindyment , Line source (floor to ceiling) dipoles not only limit reflections off the floor and ceiling but also off the side walls. I have been using DSP since 1995. It will not fix certain room issues and yes, the optimal tune is at the listening position in terms of time and phase but then it always is isn't it? DSP provides speaker control not room control. Subwoofer management is IMHO the most significant benefit. It allows you to put the subs where they work best and still sinc them with the main speakers. You can use up to 10th order filters and get away with it. Next is in room EQ. Location and size are determined by phase/time and relative volume. Phase/time are not so much a concern with one way ESLs but the relative frequency response of the two is. The exact same speakers will have different frequency response curves because they are in different locations. Then there are differences in tolerances of the many components. With serial in room measurements you can tweak the frequency response curves so the the two are within 0.5 dB 100 Hz to 12 kHz. (a lot of work) Switching the EQ on and off by remote at the listen position discloses a wife noticeable increase in image specificity. Voices that were once difficult to distinguish are now separable. Same for massed horns and orchestras. The sense of an instrument with space around it is heightened. This is what I call the 3rd dimension not how far back on stage a voice or instrument is. The images are no longer flat as if spattered against a glass pane. Another interesting occurrence with a system tuned this way is balance becomes more critical. I find myself tweaking the balance several tenths of a dB from one recording to another to get the energy centralized. Before balance was a set it and forget it issue.  IMHO DSP will improve any system and it might be the only way to get to the absolute sound. 

In my experience the thing that makes the biggest difference in room integration is the size of the midrange.  A small midrange won't beam the way larger ones do.  The ATC models that use the 3" dome midrange, for example, are very easy to integrate into a room.  

>> don't you need some kind of engineering degree to run DSP? It sounds very complicated. <<

I thought you were considering active speakers because they had DSP. It's no more complicated when it's in the preamp than in the speaker. Many audiophiles use it every day.

I've tried many DSP preamps. The DEQX was one of the best sounding but most complex to set up. I sent it back. Others are much simpler to operate.

Still, a good result with DSP is never free. It takes energy and time get great results. The same is true of a lot of audio, whether it's speaker positioning, integrating subs optimally, or even choosing the right components for your taste.

I would not recommend DSP to anyone who can't put in the reading, and the trial and error. They would not be happy with it. The simplest thing is just to use some headphones -- you don't have to consider the room at all, and you don't have to learn anything new.

Perhaps a hybrid answer will be right.  The Vandersteen speakers at the higher levels feature passive above 100 or 200 hertz (depending on model) with 11 bands of analog eq to adjust the powered bass to your room.  They are also set to measure flat at the speaker not the listening position as that is how instruments work.  The result is you don't have a brightness that would light up your space.  These speakers are the only time and phase correct designs throughout the entire lineup.  They are not everywhere as they were in the 80's but if you seek them you will find a great dealer to help you audition them without pressure.  If you have trouble arranging a demo just call the factory.  Richard Vandersteen (founder) is still there everyday to help you out.  I am the global sales manager and can be reached at brad@vandersteen.com

mike_in_nc - "The simplest thing is just to use some headphones -- you don’t have to consider the room at all, and you don’t have to learn anything new"

sorry Mike, never have been a headphone guy and never will. I like to feel the music. As far as learning, I love to learn, but I just want to listen to some music, I do not want to spend hours upon hours re-engineering the wheel.

mijostyn - yes, but 3’ is still quite a ways off the back wall, a minimum for any dipole speaker.

otooleme - Thanks for the tip, not sure about the older model Vandys but I have heard some of their newer models and they weren't really my wife and I's cup of tea.

@high-amp, looking into the Kii 3s, I found some info / evaluation - Erins Audio Corner.

Kii Audio THREE Review (erinsaudiocorner.com)

Scroll to the latency settings part for some insight into the Kii 3 response.

The Radiation Pattern is described as Cadioid as is unusual by comparison.

The video goes into some detail for explanation of in room response.

rego - So I just watched this and said, that’s it, I’m going with Kii 3s!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_f5H7S2ZJo

Then I watched this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrp5SXNwHp8 and Darko like the passive option better.

I was considering the Hegel H390 with a pair of KEF R11’s (or if I could squeeze it a set of the KEF Ref 1’s as per Darko’s shoot-out).

My problem is the room which it seems the Kii 3s will do the best in, but I also love that "Laid Back" sound of the KEF (which I have heard, haven’t heard the Kii’s). But then I’m back to the room problem if I go passive. Now, I’m really confused

Did someone say UGH!

Eric's audio corner also reviewed the Dutch and Dutch 8c.

Dutch and Dutch 8c

" Ugh " ... don’t despair ... the two descriptions / perceptions are very different offerings within the respective two presentations.

The being is that impressions can be transitional and straight up change!

My tendency is to relate more to the evaluation at erinsaudiocorner because it lays out some of the variables very well.

Darko’s comparison is quite good but it does reflect darko’s preference of presentation and that may change ... and consider that Kii 3 does allow for some tonal shaping ( my understanding ).

Darkoaudio posted two YTvideos featuring an Acoustic Treatment System recently and I am interested in the impression darko may relate about the ‘ differences ‘ before and after.

BTW is the ceiling - (in your room ) a dropped ceiling?

The upper right corner ...

And keep in mind that if the choice tips in favor of Hegel ( for example ) then how will you make a decision about a Loudspeaker?

I think that the Kiis are somewhat unique though and you may want look in different direction.

Which is why it is good to weigh some options.

Timing was important for me in how my System developed.

rego - Thanks, wise words! No, the ceiling is vaulted. 8' at the walls and around 12' or so, in the middle. With a beam down the center.

djones51 - thanks, I will check out the D&D's

Kii 3 note: The Kiis can also use component input if one so chooses as well as fully self - contained operation.

Darko's Review: Removing the room with the Kii Audio Three loudspeaker system - YouTube

@djones51, the two reviews @erinsaudiocorner suggest the two models - Kii 3 / D&D 8c are neck n neck in terms of presentation as the notes state.

 rego - "Kii 3 / D&D 8c are neck n neck in terms of presentation as the notes state"

Yes, but the D&D's are about $7,000 cheaper than the Kii's. No longer neck and neck, I'd say...

I think I like the looks of the Kii's a bit better though, but $7K?

If the room is small, I'll vote for active speakers.  And I can also recommend active ATC, but they are not aesthetically pleasing though.  Price around USD8000.

My experience in choosing a pair of speakers was really quite interesting.  I found that in order to have sound quality that of active speakers from USD2000 - USD8000, passive system need to be 2.5x or more the price, that includes pre and power amps.

Shortlisted the Elac FS408 with ribbon tweeter, made in Germany.  But the total price with pre and power (2 mono blocs) comes to about USD18000.

After much homework and leg work, I settled for active speakers, Neumann KH310A.  8" woofer, 3" mid and 1" high.  I have a small room and such speakers fit really well and need not be away from wall.  The placement is only about 4" away from wall.  Plug them into a power regen and the sound quality is that coming out from class A amps.  Really nice!  Using a DAC pre-amp to drive the XLR connections, trying to keep min components as space is very limited.

I wouldn't worry about lifespan of 15 years as someone stated due to repair.  My previous speakers were passive Focal and the rim had disintegrated, and dust cap fell off.  I called Focal and other repair shops, none carry the drivers anymore.  So after 12 years, I have to throw them away, no choice.  If the active speakers can last 15 years and no longer repairable, IMO it is time to replace with new speakers.

Have fun searching and good luck!

xboom - thanks for the info!