Lately I have been wiring my Cornwall 4's with 10 gauge "western electric" cloth covered cable to the lower speaker taps and and then using jumpers to the allegedly "treble" taps on the Cornwalls with 16 gauge of the same vintage wire. Technically, the current going to the tweeters is overridden by what is going to the woofers, so it should make no difference. However, I am noticing that with this arrangement it is easier to further manage the potential brightness of the horn tweeter signal. The REL active subs with the "high level" connections also further provide playing room.
Also, a further variable is to switch up cabling to the Audion monoblocs. Most of the system is power cabled by Shunyata Delta NR v2's connected to an old Shunyata Hydra, but the monoblocs are powered from an old Shunyata "Cyclops" power conditioner with Anticables Level 3 power cables juicing the monoblocs. Routing the Anticables from the Cyclops to the Audions gives a slightly softer presentation with a very sight reduction in dynamics. Plugging the Anticables directly into the wall outlets (Hubble outlets,dedicated line) gives slightly more treble energy and more bass impact at the same time. Since the Audions are already very dynamic the slight loss of dynamics can be a welcome thing.
The Audions are still breaking in - so is the Holo Serene pre which is just starting to sound more "liquid" as forecast by reviewers, so things are changing for the better on a daily basis. The more I get into this hobby the more I feel like a hot-rodder tinkering with iron and rubber in the driveway while the rest of the family looks on with bemusement.
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Yes, multi-subs along with bass traps and absorption of the strong early reflections are the best way to tame the acoustics. This done properly will essentially remove the damaging effects of an untreated room and allow you to hear the acoustics of the venue. Dialing this in with a microphone and measurement system is the fastest and easiest way to get the best result. Waterfall plots will reveal the RT60 and indicate the problem areas.
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I finally got my best bass response. Running full range speaker t s and 4 subs
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@panzerwagon, a good post. I agree.
@noir59, "Treat the room only when all else fails" The room itself creates huge problems which happens in all rooms, an unavoidable fact and is the downfall of many potentially great systems.
If you have something handy like a bluetooth portable speaker for example a JBL Flip 3 or 4 or ? carry it into your tiled bathroom and listen then carry it outside and listen. The different sound is caused by room acoustics. Also place it on a table near the middle of your listening room, then try it in a corner on the floor and you will hear lots more bass. It’s not good bass it’s just more but boomy.
This simple experiment will help you understand how acoustics play such an important role.
Room treatment is paramount! Ignore at your peril 😲
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Glad the changes made your system more enjoyable. Always try speaker placement first cuz it's free! A lack of bass usually means a lack of power/drive. This can be the speaker or the amp. If you're happy now you just needed more power or an amp that could better drive your woofers. In my experience many systems are compromised by the amplifier's lack of control of the woofer. Too much bass was actually loose/slow bass that muddied the lower mids which makes the entire midrange less transparent and clear. The bass deficit was simply not getting all the woofer had to offer. Once resolved speaker placement can get you most of the way to a balance that pleases. Treat the room only when all else fails.
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@emergingsoul
That might be a bad example, as there may be other selection requirements not shown... I’m sure there are others.
It doesn’t provide the advantages of a true 2nd amplifier, but running a separate output channel for each driver, does offer the tweeter an output that doesn’t have the responsibility of driving the woofer.
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@knotscott
Interesting schematic above. Seems a bit convoluted though. It’s from A receiver with a built-in amplifier and I’m hard-pressed to see where there’s any quality to do much of anything. It does seem a bit strange though the the way they have the speaker split between main and surround signals. Why would anyone wanna do this? Maybe the internal settings allow for by biamping and changes the nature of the signal path? who knows
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@dennis041992
So I’m thinking of bi-amping my B&W 602s2 bookshelf from a Rotel RB-850 5 channel amplifier. As I understand I use my bi-wire Audioquest cables by plugging it into the left main and left surround and the same with the right. What I’m reading here it’s a waste of time. Am I chasing a ghost?
None of us are really in a situation to know for sure what your results will be. Given a less ideal setup of 2-way passive speakers and a single multi-channel amp, you’ll likely have less dramatic results than some other bi-amp situations, but you have little to lose by trying because you already have the capability. If you don’t try, there will be zero change. If you do try, there might be some improvement. Give it a go, and find out for yourself.
Per Denon:
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So I'm thinking of bi-amping my B&W 602s2 bookshelf from a Rotel RB-850 5 channel amplifier. As I understand I use my bi-wire Audioquest cables by plugging it into the left main and left surround and the same with the right. What I'm reading here it's a waste of time. Am I chasing a ghost?
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My hifi room is "treated" by the stuff in it, thus allowing the "room sound" I prefer, and note the only "proper" speaker setup is the one that sounds best to you. I don’t think bi-amping is useful or necessary for home audio as to truly pull it off (as stated above) you need a crossover ahead of the amps to drive directly to the drivers, and almost nobody bothers to do that except in live sound powered array speakers maybe. Also true bi-amping is a wonderful way to blow up a tweeter...trust me...I bi-amped my beloved old A7s for years in PA use...Kustom made a great mono PA bi-amp in the 70s with 100 watts for the horns and 200 for the bass bins. Plenty loud for most any occasion.
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After you have co,pleted the room’s acoustical treatment, bi-amping, real bi-amping with a line-level crossover before the power amps can make a huge difference, both in allowing amp matching (transistors low, tubes high, e.g.) but in dynamic range - up to 6dB.
Another improvement, arguably the most audible, is the improvement of LF control due to the elimination of any low-pass series inductor(s) from the passive crossover. Never was that made more clearly than when Henry Kloss introduced the rare-as-hens-teeth Powered Advent. A stunningly competent speaker, on comparison with its passive stablemates, the advantages of bi-amping were immediately apparent. Much tighter, more impact full bass, a clarity previously nonexistent in the midrange, and the overall voicing of the Advent - neutral to slightly warm, no nasalness or honking on vocals or midrange - still intact.
Upstream from that, the spendy ADS 1020 Tri-amped 12" 3-Way, put on a masters class in what a box speaker could do.
Bi-amping Altecs and JBLshas been a standard practice in studio, theater, and live sound since at least the late 1960s.
And finally, the Magneplanar Tympni III, preferably powered by ARC tube gear, set a high-water mark in soundstaging and resolution few speakers today even approach.
That was 50 years ago, so bi-amping is not news. And whenever I see a manufacturer introduce a new bi-amp speaker, I do tend to sit up and take notice.
But there is a problem. I see lots of people thinking they are biamping by using two amps and running into an existing speaker’s passive crossover biwire connections. That absolutely is not bi-amping. It is just the most expensive form of bi-wiring. It is pointless and wasteful, as it accomplishes none of the goals of bi-amping, yet still manages to double the price of amplification. It feeds full range signals to the high end, where the passive crossover is left to absorb the LF energy and doesn’t remove the series resistance that destroys LF damping, and because it doesn’t separate LF and HF, into separate loads, it does nothing to increase a systems dynamic range.
So, done right, bi-amping can be great, and I am a big fan.
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OP People complain about lack of bass, not enough mid range. Solution?
You mean the sound of the original music. We don’t want any more bass or mid than the original sound. It won’t be a nice sound.
What we want is the recreation of the original sound. The orig has enough bass and mid. The orig sounds always beat the reproduced sound which is the processed original sound.
All equipment and cables degrade the sound. Therefore, the source is important which is a start of signal chain. If the source didn’t get the orig signal right, rest don’t have any chance.
I know all expensive and cheap CDP, DAC, Streamer include $100k CDP and DAC combo destroy the orig signal and sound un-natural as usual. All new technologies damage the orig signal/music more than old ones. Yes. New tech sounds better than old tech at glance with ------------------ a destroyed signal. In other world, old tech can sound better with a good orig signal.
I think my humble system (modded Oppo BDP-95) sounds better than many (if not all) so called $million greatest system in the world. I modded my Oppo 95 which preserve the orig signal.
I live recorded below video to compare with one of best sound systems. My system is playing downloaded MP4 (worse than MP3) and MBL is playing a master tape.
The best way for good bass/mid and satisfy our sound quest is getting the orig signal and make the orig sound. Alex/WTA
Orig music
MBL system
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Increasing the mid bass is going to detract from the "clarity" of the recording - all other things being equal. I had a recording studio for 10 years and I think any recording engineer would tell you that managing the mid bass in a recording is critical. If you have an equalizer just try bumping up the EQ from about 200 hz to about 600 hz and you will hear muddiness.
The point here is that when you change the frequency response of your system it's not unusual to hear unintended consequences.
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Ok, I get it now. No room acoustic treatments needed and bi-amping is the key. I'm doing it all wrong.
@baylinor Heh heh. As my buddy who’s a computer consultant used to say about his more tech-challenged clients — We’re dealing with about 100 megabytes of RAM here.
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I added a pair of REL SHO subwoofers and it totally changed things. Their high level connection allows them to play as woofers to fill in the bass after dialing them in.
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>sigh< .... and yet another one....
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I just spent a few days playing with different component positions of power cables - (Shunyata Delta NR v2's and Level 3 Anticables) plus fiddling with the controls on REL S812 subwoofers - all this after doing some room treatment. Quite amazing what can be done by judicious experimenting and shuffling about with these variables.
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As a starting point rule of thumb, you want the distance between the tweeters to be about 83% of the distance from your ear to either tweeter. (Unless you have one of those rare speakers designed to be in a corner or against the wall.)
Most speakers need to be at least 2 feet from the wall, up to about 5 feet, unless you've got a huge room. So maintaining the 83% ratio, experiment with moving the speakers in that 2-5 feet from the wall range.
Unless something is damaged or mis-wired in your speakers, speaker placement is 90% of the ball game in getting frequency response right.
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Geting the bass "right" should improve midrange detail and linearity, not detract from it.
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Try optimising speaker placement. Then, try some room treatment (diffusers, absorbers, etc) - As other have noted above, you might find the bass magically appears!
Following the above you may wish to bi-amp -- or not, as it were.
OTOH, if you liek the idea of two bi-amping don't deprive yourself; but you'll still benefit doing the above
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Ok, I get it now. No room acoustic treatments needed and bi-amping is the key. I'm doing it all wrong.
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You are not defining the Quality of the replacement speaker ,is it a 2 way to a 3 way speaker if so the quality ,and size difference . Your room can excite different bass frequencies ,and what’s called suck out in certain rooms . If if ported maybe ports are different. Having room treatments helps for sure, rugs in front of speakers .you did not give ample information to have any idea of the brand any differences .
just changing tweeters , and cabinet driver types ,and theSynergy between the amp and speakers ,power doesnot guarantee synergy . .having. Been in audio sales
over 20 years in the past there are a lot of factors .if you mention your part, and present speaker, amp current amplifier your using , efficiency , and what’s not the same or likes, dislikes between the 2 then you can create a picture ,and room , is there anything different there ? Glass can make a big difference reflections especially if a different speaker ,like going from a monitor to a floor stander .
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The solution is in the cup of coffee!
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No not al all. One designer was Joe Ackroyd (who worked for Goodmans, Wharfedale, and designed the first Rega speakers the ELA also Royd Audio). He was one that said absolutely no difference.
They did try it. The arrogance is in saying they didn’t.
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@botrytis
When I have talked to SEVERAL speaker designers, most stated that bi-amping does nothing.
I’ve seen others state they’ve read the same thing, so they end up not trying, which is a shame, because IME it’s not true. Since everyone’s setup is different, IMHO it’s better to give it a try if feasible.
With that said, not everyone has two amps available, and not everyone’s speakers are worth the effort/cost, which brings us back to the fact that everyone’s situation is different, so the consideration should always be based on where they stand vs what someone else said in a generalized statement,
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@knotscott
always get horizontal and vertical biamping confused. I am more focussed on what's actually happening.
Great response. You have a really interesting system wish I was your neighbour.
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When I have talked to SEVERAL speaker designers, most stated that bi-amping does nothing.
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Very often incomplete or inaccurate room treatments is the culprit.
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There seems to be a fair amount of confusion and conflicting info about bi-amping, so I suspect that some folks are hesitant to even try. Every situation is different, and one size fits all does not apply. Bi-amping can applied in many different ways, and it can be effective in many situations. You can even get creative about it.
- Bi-amping can be done with passive or active crossovers, or a hybrid of both
- Bi-amping can be done with identical amps (vertical bi-amping) or non-indentical amps (horizontal bi-amping), regardless of the crossover options used.
- Bi-amping can be done with solid state or tube amps, or a hybrid combo of both
- Adding an active subwoofer is a form of horizontal bi-amping
- Every option has pros and cons, and every option may or may not be optimal for your situation.
I was using twin monoblock tube amps for years, which is really a type of vertical bi-amping. They had great clarity, but somewhat sluggish bass bloom. More recently I added an active low pass crossover and a solid state integrated amp to the woofers below 80hz, and still run the tube monoblocks on the mids/tweeters. For my situation it’s the best of both worlds. I get that incredible tube clarity through mids and highs, and the SS amp slams the woofers with good authority in the bass region. The mids and treble got even clearer because the tube amps no longer have to drive the woofers. I can also adjust the woofer level independently of the mids and tweeters, so it doesn’t muddy the vocal range if I turn up the woofers relative to the mids/highs. Love this setup, and was remarkably inexpensive and easy to do.
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