If the goal is to improve the sound quality (soundstage, detail, dynamics, etc) and the issue is "noisy" AC, it would seem to me that a power regenerator such as PS Audio P15 would be far superior to a "conditioner" such as a Shunyata Denali or Hydra or Triton. Is this correct? Thanks .
When you strip away the marketing hype from Paul at PS Audio and live with their regenerators, I have owned the P20 for 2 years, and before that the P5, and before that the PPP, you realize they:
- produce line noise - the regeneration is not silent, or “free” - it does add some noise
- they are also susceptible to incoming AC noise. That’s why the power cord feeding the P20 maters. At times, there is more background noise in my system, which shouldn’t be the case if the output is “pure, clean” AC. The truth is that it is still starting with (dirty) AC, and some of that does come into the output
- a pure sine wave is not a requirement for equipment. It seems to make sense that a nice sine wave is important. But it’s not. Your equipment runs on DC and could care less about the incoming sine wave, as it’s flattening it anyway.
- they do nothing to filter noise being generated by your equipment, that gets put back into the line, and therefore affects other equipment
Don’t get me wrong, the PS Audio Regenerators do work, but they are not perfect. As was said a few times above, you have to listen and trust your ears. A PS Audio may be best for you, or a Shunyata Denali/Everest. These are the two leading contenders today. Audioquest has been surpassed by the latest advancements from Shunyata.
Yes- although its possible to use ferro-resonant transformers to regulate line voltage, they also introduce harmonics and they can be pricey too if one of the lower distortion models. I've really not seen a decent conditioner that didn't have a lot of active circuitry inside.
BTW this is something that has been going on a long time. They were making power conditioners back in the 1950s that were all-tube, using a device called a saturable reactor. You have to imagine that if there was a perceived need 65 years ago that if it could be solved by a glorified power strip that that would have been done and everyone moved on to bigger fish. But here we are in the 21st century and quality power conditioning is still a thing.
@atmasphere Thanks. Paul at P.S. Audio has made the case multiple times against passive conditioners for that kind of reason, and because he sells the very expensive regenerator I wasn't sure if his criticism against passive products went against them as a whole kind of product or just the ones out there now. But Puritan is relatively new, I think, so was kind of hoping Paul was wrong about this. It seems that he's not, at least if I am understanding the implications of what you're saying.
Ralph, what have you heard or have you tried the Puritan products? I put a lot of stock in your views, so I'm asking!
@hilde45 No, I haven't. I took a look at their website. IMO a passive product like this might have some audible effect, but without active circuitry won't regulate the AC line voltage, filter low frequency harmonics (the 5th in particular) and otherwise remove distortion of the AC line waveform. It does look like it would remove spikes and high frequency noise though.
I also am fascinated by Mike Fremer's story. He said that the P20 + P15 restored his sound to the AQ 7000 level before the generator switch messed things up, but he implies that the P20 + P15 is no better than AQ. He hasn't decided whether to get the bypass switch that will enable him to use the AQ. If he does, then he will compare the P20 + P15 to AQ 7000 using the original power line.
Until then, can you be specific about what you heard from the P20 that was better than AQ 5000?
PS Audio seems to imply that their regenerated power is still a modified sine wave with slightly rounded tops and bottoms. The multi wave function may make the tops and bottoms more rounded and flat, making it a little like a square wave. which someone said dulled the sound. Inverters probably vary in their modifications of the perfect sine wave. Has anyone compared the Goal Zero Yeti 1000 inverter to the PS Audio?
Michael Fremer lost his audio system to a switch for his back up power generator. While pending a separation of that power switch from his audio system, he installed PS Audio's power regenerator. The result is that he got his system back. Many audiophiles maybe suffering with bad power. Of course, battery only power is the best source but alternatively, providing clean power to one's system may require heroic/expensive measures such as regenerators and conditioners.
I have a pair of 125w. tube monoblocks that use a pair of 7" tall by 3" diameter electrolytic storage caps. I'm getting huge steady power in those amps. My EAR 890 has dinky little caps, not quite the bass power of the monoblocks but certainly adequate. I have a separate audio power panel so that could be a reason for the excellent amp power.
Does Millercarbon own a PS Audio Power Plant 20 or is he relying on what he has read? I do own one and it made a huge difference in my system. I had a Niagara 5000 first and My ears liked the PP 20 better.
If you do want to read an article my I suggest Waiting for a bypass Analog Corner by Michael Fremer April 2021 Stereophile
I agree with chorus that your response was excellent and very useful. Thank you - sincerely - for sharing your experiences.
The one important question I have for you (so I don't repeat the mistakes others such as you have made and learned from) is could you please name some or all of these "crappier conditioners" that crush the dynamics, etc.
I have read so many times about these issues, but it seems to always be in the context of a positive review or statement about "conditioner A", which DOESN'T screw up the current flow like others do. And I read this same thing about all of them! So, please do let me know which ones are actually crappy in your view. I will avoid them like COVID!
I tried many over the past 15 years and I landed on a newer designed PS Audio regenerator P-12 for my front-end gear and it is the best sounding one I’ve heard from any passive, isolation transformer design like the Furman Reference 20i which I liked a lot. Better than many branded audiophile ones with great marketing. The PS audio allows the music to flow, black background, more body and depth of field as well as imaging. It does what they claim it does, in fact when I run the vacuum on the same line as the PS Audio the meter goes way, way up on incoming noise and distortion at the very top of the range, but the regenerated AC shows only 0.1% distortion with the improvement meter, which shows almost 75 times improvement, I turn off the vacuum and the meters drop back down to 2.5% distortion in, 0.1% out. Voltage in 123 volts most days out a rock-solid 120 volts out.
This unit does as it claims and you can easily hear it.
A year ago I got a extra bonus payment from work witch I had not seen coming upfront. I decided to dedicate the whole lot for my new hobby, HiFi. After some back in fourth I decided that I wanted to do something with my power both proctecting my gear and at the same give me clean relieble power. Long story short, I purchased a P12 regenerator. I plugged in all my gear both Parasound JC2, JC5, JC3jr,LuminT2 and SL1200G. The P12 handled all my gear as a walk in the park an the result??? Just immidiate more refined sound, more peace into the recordings and slam in the bottom.end. Total night an day different. Quite fun to see how voltage drops in my street when my neighbours are preparing for dinner with their family, but this does not affect me anymore with the P12. It has a massive coil and capasitors inside (hence weight) ready to feed amp when bottom end is asking for it. I was sceptical myself but Im suremy grandma could even hear the diffrence as it was present right out of the box. Ido live in europe thou so 230volts here witch also make the P12 alot more expensive with currency etc. Still worth every penny
In my system I’ve had the following over the last four years. Equi-Core 1800, an Older Shunyata Hydra 6, Niagara 5000, and a Puritan Audio 1512. I also have a Jackery Powerstation 500 battery pack that I use around the house. One day I decided to plug all of my source components in to it and was pretty blown away. Things became just a lot more relaxed and, for lack of a better word, whole. Soundstage depth increased a lot as well. Fast forward a year and I decided to take the plunge and buy a S1000 stromtank for the source equipment. I haven’t looked back. Works great with my system, but I would recommend auditioning if you can. Or you can even try a couple of batteries and inverter first to see what you think. Good luck.
At axpona a couple years ago, D,agostino had three of the Stromtank units, one for each monoblock and one for the source gear. I wonder what the advantage would be with those monoblocks, I believe the power supplies are massive and regulated.
I've been thinking about the Power Regenorators. Are the really much more than AC/DC converter, connected to a Pure Sinewave inverter? I've been thinking about putting one together to see if there is a difference. Of course I would use high end units, thought about getting an inverter/charger and throwing a 3.4KW battery in the mix to take it out of the house circuitry all together, anyone have any thoughts on that?
if frequency drops to 55 Hz, or the incoming voltage goes high to 140 vac, or drops to 90 vac, the inverter doesn’t care or even notice. It uses what it gets from the line and converts it to dc. It ALWAYS supplies noise-free 60 Hz/120 vac to its load.
I just wanted to point out that if frequency goes to 55, you have no power. The grid crashes a lot sooner than that. (For once, I know what I’m talking about. I’m from Texas!) And since I’m here, my PS Audio Power Plant 3, its entry-level regenerator, makes my system more articulate. It’s clearer, whatever that really means. Not a lot, but I kept it.
@jrw1971 I agree and concur. I have dedicated lines for each and found the Denali 6000S better than a PS Powerplant P10. I have all my digital on the P10. The settings on the P10 are critical for best effect. I am not convinced the P10 doesn't add its own distortion to the connected equipment.
Power regenerator. Your power grid is never great, once you realize the difference you hear in that late night sound from the low usage on the power grid that supplies your house, and you can have that in the middle of the day.... you will never go back to just plug into the wall or just a conditioner.... try it...
I run a Goal Zero Yeti 1000 for my pair of Devialet D440 and it's a game changer, bests every other conditioner by a mile and a bargain for the level of improvement. I do use SR Galileo PC's to the amps. Magical and without comparison. According to the reviews sounds identical to the Stromtank.
Hello, I buy from a local Hifi store in the Chicagoland area which is a Puritan Dealer. https://holmaudio.com/I can tell you if you try a fully broken in Puritan PSM156 you will buy one. Even if you cannot afford it you will buy one. It makes everything plugged into it sound better. Try before you buy. The store will let you demo a fully broken in one from Saturday afternoon to Tuesday close. A brand new Puritan does take 12 days to fully break in, but on the 12th day of Christmas you will know that you received the best gift ever. This is why you try a fully burnt in Puritan PSM156. It’s like someone lifted a vail from your speakers. Sound stage, decay, and detail. If you own a PSM156 try the upgraded Puritan Ultimate XX cable. It’s like installing the cleanest loudness button on your system. You don’t have to believe me just try it for yourself. 1. Plug into the wall and plug your gear into it. To get the full affect your caps on your gear need to recharge only once.2.-12 hours from setup listen again. Believe me you will never stop listening to all of your music. 3. Remove from system. 4.-12 hours later listen without the Puritan PSM156. 5. Return unit to the store and buy one. It’s that easy. https://holmaudio.com/
The regenerator is a good idea for your source components but your amplifier if it is large will need a conditioner because the expense of a regenerator to power an amp will be very pricey and i have heard that even some sources do not like regeneration.
The elephant in the room that apparently can not be addressed is: How does one Quantify what level of problem exists in his own home ?
I tried one once and the sound stage collapsed. Put me off them. I am be fortunate to have a transformer on a pole not 100 feet from my system. (Some would disagree for aesthetic reasons I am sure)
So in this case I may not have a need??
The Stromberg system at $30k will solve your problems. I noticed two of them at Dan D'agostino's factory when I visited it. I do not think they are too budget conscience so the best is what he owns.
But what about the shadows P.I. Audio’s UberBuss device at $1,200?
Other people I know swear by the Niagra 7000 $5k (guessing on #) and others say the Shunyata Everest in the true nirvana. $7k.
It seems odd to me that in nearly 100 years of music technological evolution there is not more clarity on this question.
There must be device that can monitor my dedicated power line for say 24 hours and give me some useful information???
Other than that your option is to "Buy one and try it".
I'll second the praise for the Puritan Conditioners - great value for money and an improvement over prior conditioners I've tried - whether and Isotek or PS Audio Regenerator. The nice thing about the Puritan is that it does not appear to limit dynamics.
Maybe newer PS Audio regenerators are much better, I don't know. Anyone compared ?
Yes. The new ones seem considerably better. We could not run our gear on the older ones but we can now and they help out!
Now those German things look serious and they use safe chemistry for batteries. $30K ?
One of our customers makes those- we had one at Munich about 6 years ago and it worked quite well. We used it only for the front end of the system- not the amps. It needed to be recharged every day, but it was on all day long.
They will have no effect on sound, unless you live in Texas :-), or at a
place where power variations are more than 10%. In that case, instead
of spending your money on those frivolous items, you should sue your
power company anyway, to get better results. In this case, a
conditioner is of no use anyway.. and maybe a regenerator may help, if
it can keep the mains supply at a relatively stabe +/- 3% of what it is
supposed to be.
This statement is problematic- in fact, false. The things that affect equipment performance are distortion on the AC line and of course the voltage. The former is responsible for a variety of problems. The 5th harmonic (300Hz) is arguably the most troublesome. It shows up when a power transformer (like those big cylinders you see on power poles) get pushed past about 50% of their capacity. The 5th harmonic can be responsible for power transformer vibration, increased diode noise, synchronous motors wanting to turn in the wrong direction, stuff like that.
Fluke Instruments has published a number of articles on this topic. I'm sure they want to sell meters and the like, but they aren't targeting audiophiles! So this isn't snake oil- sheesh!
The other thing that can mess with toroid power transformers in particular is DC on the line (which can look like a 2nd harmonic)- usually caused by an electric heater running on half power (and so only using half of the AC waveform). The resulting DC can saturate the core of the transformer and cause it to rattle. Removing the DC is cheap and easy though; we build DC blockers into our equipment and you can get them easily enough as outboard devices.
If the efficiency of the power transformer is compromised (low voltage or 5th harmonic, DC on the line, and often, all three...) then the power rectifiers, which only turn on at the tops of the AC waveform for a few milliseconds, won't be able to charge the power supply properly. This is both measurable and audible. A regulated power supply can get around this problem if it has enough headroom, but regulating the power supplies of power amplifiers is difficult to say the least and therefore a rare thing to see.
So a power conditioner that actually does its job correctly is helpful for audio equipment. What I see as problematic is that most (over 90%) of high end audio power conditioners simply don't do their job- most of them are glorified power strips.
Keep an eye on the Audio Science Review YouTube postings; Amir has a Power Plant that he will be evaluating. I would throw out there the idea that if your equipment doesn’t already filter out the badness and allow for minor drops and spikes in power by design (and most equipment does, because companies know that AC power is/can be dirty and don’t want returns for that reason), you probably need better equipment. And if your line takes a direct or nearby lightning hit, your equipment is toast no matter what you have it running through.
Oh, and something else to mention: if you worship at the AudioQuest/PS Audio altar you won’t be happy with what he has concluded about ANY of their products.
Just plug into the wall. Amps don’t need anything but a wall. This discussion is nutty. Power conditions help protect sensitive components from dirty power, and this questionable.
I thought that too and it is logical however, I tried a Puritan PSM156 and it delivers everything you are looking for, and for a lot less money than a decent regenerator.
Now those German things look serious and they use safe chemistry for batteries. $30K ? That's almost nothing, some of us buy cartridges for $15k, cables for $25K and records for $600 or more. Additional way to manage the current is to buy equipment with real power supplies, not some toy parts. Plus good power cords.
Stromtank is the most advanced system I've seen. It is a giant battery with a very precise regegenerator.
I've heard it but only in a system, not demoed with an without. There are some reviews and they all seem to be very positive. So it is just a matter of the price, I think one model goes for $30k!
The Power Generator uses an inverter. First, It rectifies The Line Power to DC. Then, the inverter reassembles the 60 Hz 120 vac line signal. It responds very quickly to changes in demand. If the incoming line frequency drops to 55 Hz, or the incoming voltage goes high to 140 vac, or drops to 90 vac, the inverter doesn’t care or even notice. It uses what it gets from the line and converts it to dc. It ALWAYS supplies noise-free 60 Hz/120 vac to its load.
A power conditioner only filters the line power. It can’t raise or lower the line voltage, nor correct it’s frequency.
No, general working principles of regenerators and filters are different... and implementation of both types of equipment concerning SQ might vary depends on your preferences and power quality. I used to have PS Audio P1000 regenerator which did not make any perceptible improvement for my system however filter is useful but only for the sources. My friend who live in multi-storey building with far from decent power situation has totally opposite effect, power regeneration is the must for him. So, you need to know exactly what you want to do and what effect you try to get or if it’s too complicated just compare one to the other.
OP — Because you seem to have these products in mind, I can share my experience: I have a Niagara 3000, a PS Audio P-15, and a Denali 6000T in my house, in different places. Like you, the PS Audio narrative makes the most sense to me. And I used the P-15 in my big system for a long time. More than once it beat out the Denali. (The Niagara 3000 was not designed for a big system and I didn’t try too hard to test that). But I recently put in two 20A dedicated lines with 10 gauge wiring, one for the amp and one for the AC power hub of choice, identical length, etc etc. First of all, no AC solution bettered my system like that did. Big time (and if you think about it, that sorta undermines the notion that — if you regenerate perfect power from scratch — it doesn’t matter what you start with). Secondly, after settling into a more relaxed, quieter, yet more dynamic new sound, I tried the Denali in place of the P-15. Denali was better by a non-debatable margin (but I still connect the amp to the wall directly). Sooo, who knows. I let my ears decide. But I’ve read many times, and now experienced firsthand, that your existing power situation can determine whether you’ll prefer the regeneration route, the "distributor" route (Shunyata), or the conditioner route. I’ll say this (Part 1): they all provide improvement in my experience, except your crappier conditioners that quiet down the noise by strangling dynamics. I graduated from that trial/error chapter. And I’ll also say this (Part 2): as my system has gotten better thru better speakers and electronics, the differences in power solutions are much more noticeable. Everyone has their own opinion, but the AC power solution deniers are just, well, wrong.
I have an former PS Audio P5 and all components except my amp are running off from. The P5 made a noticeable improvement in my system and our power lines are fairly clean. My amp runs off a Nordost QB4 II with QV2 and QK1. The Nordost has its own ground post, which I have running to a dedicated external earth ground rod which is not tied to the main house ground rods, besides being connected to Mother Earth which indeed they are. System is dead quiet and the noise floor is six feet under. I have not tried the Audioquest or newer Shunyata’s, but before the P5 had an older Hydra and the P5 was superior. Also using AQ receptacles and dedicated circuits and both devices I use make a difference.
P.I. Audio’s UberBuss is the best power conditioner on the market. As good as the Shunyata Everest. Likely better; for 1/5th the price. Power factor correction of 1.
I have a PS audio pp5 I purchased used which replaced a relatively cheap panamax. At first I actually liked the panamax better, the pp5 made the sound very bright even through it may have possibly had more detail to it I could not get past the brightness. After putting on a DIY power cord and replacing the fuse the sound was much better. And then after buying a counterfeit PS audio AC 12 cord on ebay that PS audio was nice enough to replace it with a genuine one at no cost! (who does that?) and installing a SR orange fuse it now sounds awesome. The pp5 has a multi wave feature which seems to make the sound more fuller and not as thin, it comes with a remote were you can turn it on and off from your listening position which makes it easier to hear the difference.
I would agree that the power regenerator you mentioned is better than the power conditioner. I am currently using PS Audio P12.
That's what I have. The difference in the sound of my system before and after is not subtle. Every bit of line noise I had before the P12 is gone. An investment worth every penny.
They will have no effect on sound, unless you live in Texas :-), or at a place where power variations are more than 10%. In that case, instead of spending your money on those frivolous items, you should sue your power company anyway, to get better results. In this case, a conditioner is of no use anyway.. and maybe a regenerator may help, if it can keep the mains supply at a relatively stabe +/- 3% of what it is supposed to be.
The power supply, smoothing & decoupling capacitors in your power supply takes care of 99.9% of noise & imperfections in your AC mains.
The rest of the power supply filtering is so that your amplifier does not introduce noise BACK INTO the mains when the rectifier diodes are switching.
Read the section 3.1 of the following CAREFULLY, especially the function of the capacitors, to understand better:
The AudioQuest Niagara 7000 is seamless and (for me) has done the trick. It does not touch the sound. Have compared with direct into wall and all’s well. The AudioQuest Niagara 5000 should preform the same as the 7000. The price for the 7000 has gone up up up.
I don't think this discussion will reach a conclusion. After all, everyone has completely different preferences for sound, and it is impossible for anyone to try every power processor. But from my own experience, I would agree that the power regenerator you mentioned is better than the power conditioner. I am currently using PS Audio P12.
Since I’m a hobbiest drummer I only buy power conditioners designed by other drummers. That leaves me very little choice... drummer/ power designer Garth Powell. Seriously though, in my main system (TAD CR1’s /BHK300/Atma MP1) I use the Garth’s Niagara 7000 and really enjoy what it does on a micro and macro level.
Due to the disaster called 2020, I found myself away from home for a year and put together a small system based on a Hegel H190 and LSA Statement 10’s and didn’t want to spend a lot on conditioning. I ended up with a used Furman Ref15 fed by AQ’s latest bottom of the line power cord that Best Buy sells. (Both designed by Garth) I really like what it did for the system and and at a very low cost. Incidentally I also picked up the AQ Powerquest 3 to compare with the Furman, which while quite old at this point (although almost identical to the latest 15i) I much prefer the Furman since it has energy storage for instantaneous current, similar to the Niagara.
Having tested and owning 2 conditioners that store energy to deliver greater than what the wall can for transients, I wouldn’t buy a conditioner without that feature.
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