Preamp Output Capacitor: Mundorf Supreme vs. Supreme Silver Oil
Anyone compared the bass response of these two caps? I bought the Supremes for trial purposes and really loved what they did to my system's imaging (front to back layering) and immediately bought the Silver Gold Oil Supremes. Unfortunately while they were smoother, more beautiful, and even better at imaging, they had no bass (actually, they lost bass as they broke in). Anyone know how the Silver Oil's fit into the line?
I am totally amazed with the ODAMs in my Tube-Pre with just over 48 hours of use and talk about transparency, vividness, image density and layering is all there in spades. Your speakers will also become more Holographic...
These ODAMs has an uncanny ability to portray realism with a 3 dimensional stage that is large and almost life-like and I am still not in the ODAMs sweet-spot of 100+ hours of use...
If you are considering doing some tweaks and have the ability to carry out these mods, this would be WAY more effective and cheaper than a fuse upgrade; I can not detect a sound signature but you will hear more of the recording as if you were part of a "Live" Event.
We have been looking at several options for coupling capacitors in our upcoming new tube preamplifier products for Purity Audio The only one I have left to evaluate is the ODAM. So far, my preference is the Deulund but these would increase the price of the product out of our selling price goals. My first choice so far is DynamiCap. Let's see how ODAM compares.
Yes please check them out. Bypass with the Vcap CuTF. My favorite cap is still the Duelund CAST tinned copper foil. However, they are just crazy expensive for general use.
Will also explore the CuTF bypass, I understand that this combo gives better extension at the top end. After this mod, I would have been in the ballpark in terms of price for the Deulunds but there is no down side to V-Caps and glad it worked out : )
I was wanting to go with the Miflex in my preamp but they’re just too damn big and thankfully grannyring came along with the ODAM suggestion. They’re smaller and cheaper than the Miflex so I’m looking forward to trying them. I did place an order for the CuTF .01 too!
@t_ramey I think you made the right decision. As I stated earlier, I wasn't really impressed with the Miflex's, unless you're system is focused entirely on tone at the expense of imaging.
My technician was able to install inside Don Sachs pré in addition to the Miflex 0.47 uF the Jupiter Copper Foil 2.2 uF for my Accuphase P-6100 which has 20 Kohms input. It is still early to definitive conclusions but the bass is certainly much more evident, fuller and more realistic timbre compared to Miflex, I believe that due to more correct capacitance. A larger capacitor would not be possible. In the future maybe bypass with the V-Cap CuTF or Duelund copper or silver (0.01 uF).
could not afford the M Supremes. I am going with M SGO, white casing. Hopefully Richard Grey is doodling around his shop come monday morn. He is agaisnt swapping the stock caps for M's. We have like 20 caps to swap out on the Cayin Cd17 Mark1,,,,I'll posta YT vid after the mod.
I went with these EVO OIl SGO...I attempted to read through and try to understand the dif twix all the caps offered by M, but really could not figure out why the Supremes were *so much superior* to all other offerings. The lower priced EVO SGO made my decision. I am not buying into this *Supreme* thing with M. I think the added *Supreme* is ~~Snake-oil~ pun intended., as it is most likely the truth. Who can tell twixa Supreme vs * regular* SGO??? make A/B testing, honestly , who could tell which set up has the S and which the *ordinary*??? As I say, hopefully Richard is round about his shop and will make the mod. Will post a YT vid , ASAP
I wish we could rename this thread "Preamp Output Capacitor Discussion." (or Comparison or Reviews) Super useful experiences and suggestions in here. Thanks for the contributions.
Hi Alex. Cannot say for sure as I did not do a side by side, cap to cap direct comparison. I was lucky enough to compare both as bypass caps with a .47uf Jupiter copper foil in the same piece of gear. The Sn-Cu has more of that special musicality and perfect tone. It just sounded a tad more real, natural and spacious. The silvers were also beautiful, but just not quite as natural or real sounding in this one piece of gear.
“...came along with the ODAM suggestion. They’re smaller and cheaper than the Miflex so I’m looking forward to trying them...”
Where do you find the ODAM capacitors selling cheaper than the Miflex? A 0.47uF Miflex is around $25 vs. a 0.47 Vcap ODAM priced at $84. The price differential is a little less for larger uF values but definitely not cheaper. I’m very tempted to try the ODAMs in my Aric Audio Unlimited preamp already upgraded with the Audyn True Copper capacitors. A clear improvement over the stock red Audyns. Anyone has experience with the newer Audyn True Copper Max? For a 2.2uF value they are about the same price as the ODAMs.
I didn't know the prices of the lower values at the time of my post. I bought a pair of 2.2uF ODAM's from VHaudio for $175 and the cheapest I saw for Miflex was around $200 for a pair.
t_ramey, thanks. I’m also looking at 2.2uF values for my preamp and I now see the prices are on par for 630 volts rated model when buying a pair and ODAM pair is cheaper for the ones rated at 400 volts.
@kalali The Audyn True Copper Max are excellent caps. I recommend that you install the ODAM in a different component that can benefit from high quality caps. I bet that the True Copper and ODAM will provide excellent synergy. I use copper foil and ODAM caps in my system with great results.
Thanks for the input. One quick and hopefully non controversial question: do any of these capacitors need to be installed in a specific direction even though they are not marked for direction? I have seen some tube amplifier building/repair instructional videos where the designer/builder uses a special device to measure a certain parameter to determine the “correct“ direction for installing the capacitor, e.g., foil side towards the tube socket, etc., or something like that if I remember correctly. He claimed it makes difference. Just wondering.
Yes. I need to understand circuits better to give the technical reason why, but in my pre the outer foil points "upstream" (away from the outputs). The mundorfs are supposedly non-directional, but I’ve seen a video where people hook it to to an oscilloscope and show that it passes more noise in a particular orientation.
Well I have to echo wig’s description of the ODAM’s after 48 hrs of use they are incredibly holographic and articulate across the board with vocals and instruments. Songs that I thought just had grunge or hash as part of its recording sound much more detailed and clean but not overly so because everything is still very musically engaging.
Now I also bypassed them with the Vcap CuTF’s but I’m hearing pretty much wig has reported. I feel like I almost got a new preamp for a small investment. Speaking of small these ODAM’s are tiny compared to the Mundorf m-cap silver 2.2uF caps they replaced. So far I’m very pleased with their performance and if they get better well that’s just gravy.
I have upgraded several MHDT Orchid dacs with the Vcap Odam caps in combo with the Vcap Cutf bypass and the results are stellar!
The bass energy is the best I have heard from any cap...period. Wonderful. In addition, the mids and highs sound is so vivid and full. They are fast becoming my new favorite cap combo. I love how these caps deliver vivid detail and realism with a warm and rich beauty that is so pleasing and alluring.
I ordered some Duelund silver bypass caps to play with the ODAM’s and see how they match up together. I’m really liking the ODAM/CuTF pairing but I’m new to this cap rolling thing so I’m experimenting. The Mundorf m cap silver caps were good but the Vcap ODAM’s are just so clear and musically satisfying I had no idea a cap could make this much of a difference.
Read this very interesting and relevant thread; great info indeed! And it’s making me wonder....
I currently have the Audyn True Copper Max caps Installed in my Backert Rhumba preamp, and a pair of Jupiter Copper Foils in my Audio Mirror Tubadour III DAC... Would the ODAMs with bypass caps be only a side move, or would there be a significant improvement on either component? No issues with my system as it stands, I love it, but admit I have a problem, I am an Audiophile, and can’t leave system alone.
Depends what you are looking for. The Odam & CuTF combo from Vcap will be more open, vibrant, dynamic, resolving, 3D and far better bass. The copper foils from Jupiter, Miflex, Auydn and others will give you more rounded warmth. They are a tad darker.
I am a big Jupiter copper foil cap fan, but the Vcap combo is just better sounding to me in the ways I mentioned above. They also deliver the goods with nice warmth and richness.
Thanks Bill @grannyring ; good info to ponder. I do like the warmth in my system now, and your description resonates with how I view my system as well, so I am guessing that changing to the Odam / CuTF combo may bring only minor incremental changes. If I didn't already the Jupiters, or the Audyn, I'd definitely try the Odam / CuTF.
Sorry if I’m asking the obvious but when changing brands do you always use the same exact uF value as replacement/upgrade? I suspect the answer is yes but I still wondered if the different material construction, design technology, etc., or even the desired sonic outcome, might positively impact the outcome if a slightly lower or higher values were substituted instead.
@grannyring I completely agree with your assessment of the ODAM.
@kalali and @1markr As good as the Jupiter and Audyn True Copper caps may be, the ODAM may possibly provide better synergy for your system. Don't be discouraged from replacing high quality caps for the ODAM. Experimentation is the only way that you'll truly know what sounds best for your system.
I’m agree with you. Everyone has their own system and taste. So the best way to try by yourself in your system.
@kalali , IMHO, the value accuracy
of coupling capacitors is not so important. Is doesn’t matter to much if cutoff frequency 1 Hz or 2, 3 Hz. The quality and sound signature is much more important! The other story in crossovers and RIAA correction where accuracy is the must.
These ODAMs have been a revelation and I'm glad I contacted Chris before spending more money on Deulunds, which gets lots of praise but size and cost is their drawback...
I would be very careful when comparing and making claims on capacitors, in absolute terms, to make sure the value used is large enough for an accurate listening test.
For instance, testing a 0,68uf with a 100k load vs a 2uf with same load. If the capacitor is indeed accurate in absolute terms, the 0.68uf will sound thin. If it sounds full enough, then the capacitor is "artificially flavoring" the music.
A proper, truly accurate 2uf capacitor, in absolute terms, will be more accurate than the 0,68uf capacitor in almost all circuits.
AG, not necessarily. A 0.68uf cap into a 100K loaf will have a rolloff that is -3 dB at 23 Hz. That is not going to sound “thin” on most systems. The 2uf cap extends the -3 dB freq to 8 Hz. There would be virtually no sonic difference between these two caps provided they are otherwise identical (same brand, same model) at least on most systems.
You are right, there are a few criteria. 1. I am not talking "most" systems. I am discussing excellent systems. Many average Joes probably won’t care that much though. But it is important to others.
2. I am not considering bumping the woofer’s Qts above 0,707 in order to artificially boost the system’s low end response. The problem with that is a phase deviation, bloating, or even synthetic bass (RCA Radiotron Designers Handbook, 4th edition, 26+ engineers). And can one ever really obtain flat response with such a measure?
3. Another problem is that dbs add. By that I mean each components deviation is additive. If we have three components, we add the db variation of each. For instance, -0,2db plus -0,15db plus -0,2db gives us -.55db from flat. A deviation varies vs frequency, and exists over many octaves. (RCA Radiotron Designers Handbook, 4th edition, 26+ engineers explains this plus the next paragraph.)
Another concern is if we limit the bass response, we also need to limit the high frequency response. Visa versa as well. (RCA Radiotron Designers Handbook,) We need to keep each component’s frequency response as flat as possible, minimal deviation to protect the musical information.
4. I am discussing capacitors in absolute sonic terms (not measurements), so as to not cover over another fault in a poor/average design. The capacitors I am talking about are not a 716P orange drops.
5. Every time one compromises sonic quality in a part, a stage, in a component, the synergy will not be as optimum as it could be. Design and parts quality is very important. By the way, imo, -3db at 23 hz is extremely poor frequency response unless one is purposely constructing a high pass filter to limit the bass response, which is useful for certain purposes. Cheers ag
The sound character of the particular output capacitor will have a much greater effect than the different measured cutoff frequency with a 100K load (23 vs 8 Hz). For example, a Mundorf Silver/Gold/Oil sounds “thin” regardless of cutoff frequency; an older InfiniCap would sound even more thin and lightweight. On the other hand, a .68uf Copper V-Cap with a 100K load will have deep, powerful, full-bodied bass despite the measured response being down 3db at 23 Hz.
You're right! That should teach me to do math in my head. I dropped a digit.
Of course that makes the issue of the value of the cap even less significant sonically. With tube gear where the input impedance is typically 100K or more, a 0.68uf coupling cap is fine.
With tube gear where the input impedance is typically 100K or more, a 0.68uf coupling cap is fine.
The smaller value you can get away with, the better the cap itself will sound (and no need for a bypass). That is why we have a direct-coupled output in our preamps, so that the significant cap in the circuit is only 0.1uf.
Could someone explain why adding a 0.01uF capacitor in parallel/bypass with a 2.2uF capacitor improves sound quality? If this is way off topic and I’ll delete the post and ask elsewhere. Thanks.
Not everyone agrees that a small bypass cap improves sound quality. I have tried bypass caps in all sorts of applications going back literally 40 years and I haven’t found a single instance where the bypass improved sound quality. The bypass certainly changes the sound; usually the bypass makes the sound brighter, leaner and less coherent. I much prefer the sound of a single quality cap like a Copper V-Cap over any combination of caps with a bypass.
You may reach a different conclusion so by all means try it yourself, but don’t be surprised if you tire of the sound with bypass caps.
It depends on the combo and position. The Vcap Odam & Cuft bypass are a match in heaven. Chris from Vcap turned me onto it. I will say it is magic on the output of a dac which is where I have used them on 5 occasions now. I am sure they would sound as wonderful together on the output of a preamp. I am using them on a tweeter next and will report back.
Some combos just work and some just dont. Learn from experience. The Jupiter copper foils bypassed with the Duelund silver foil bypass cap also works wonderfully. In my experience the two examples work and I have used them extensively.
Thanks. I’m not questioning the results, one way or the other, just wondering why and how it makes a difference. Apparently, in the chip design the different value and material parallel/bypass capacitors are used to push the inductance of the capacitor to higher frequencies and the combined impedance(s) of the capacitors is lowered across a broader frequency range. But that’s at MHz region. I’m guessing the same/similar phenomenon occurs in audio. Otherwise, on the surface you’re just adding the capacitances of the two capacitors.
Sorry. I can’t explain as I am more of a experiential sort of guy. I try and enjoy or not. I will add that it’s all about the synergy between the stock piece of gear and the cap you are thinking of adding. For example the stock MHDT Orchid dac is warm, rounded so more air and vividness is a synergistic plus. The trick is not to go to far and lose the stock unit’s wonderful weight, bloom and body. That’s why I would not use a Mundorf SGO alone or with a bypass of any sort. However, the Odam & Cuft combo works perfectly for top to bottom correctness of tone.....perfectly balanced. One has to know the sonic personality of the parts being used as they do indeed have a sound.
You need to try yourself, in some cases bypassing can work good in some cases bad.
In my case, Jupiter Cu 1uF works very good with Duelund Cu-Sn bypass 0.01uf on my phonostage output. Probably, if I used a single Duelund Cu-Sn 1uF capacitor, it would be even better. But I didn’t try it.
In my speakers HF crossover I bypassed 4uF Duelund RS with the same Duelund Cu-Sn bypass 0.01uf. In direct comparison, when I remove bypass sound has a better focus, but with bypass I have much more vivid, real, alive and musical sound.
[quote]The sound character of the particular output capacitor will have a much greater effect than the different measured cutoff frequency with a 100K load (23 vs 8 Hz). For example, a Mundorf Silver/Gold/Oil sounds “thin” regardless of cutoff frequency; an older InfiniCap would sound even more thin and lightweight. On the other hand, a .68uf Copper V-Cap with a 100K load will have deep, powerful, full-bodied bass despite the measured response being down 3db at 23 Hz.[/quote]
They both affect the sonics to a great degree. If one is taking a full sounding capacitor to produce bass, the mids and highs will also be negatively affected. A capacitor does not somehow alter its sonic character above bass.
One has to perform specialized, sophisticated listening tests to determine which capacitors are accurate in absolute terms and which are not. One must perform testing in a variety of conditions in the lab.
As just One reference test in the lab, we place a resistor across a full range driver and vary the resistance to determine what is perceivable. It has been clearly demonstrated that altering that resistors resistance by less than a millionth of an ohm affects the tonal balance and thus what one perceives. The tonal balanced has been altered. Other methods verifies our findings.
We are talking razor thin tonal balance changes across octaves. Close enough doesn’t make it. In either case of slight bass heavy or too thin, the voices/instruments will not be live sounding. And is not that what many are searching for.
As such, it is not surprising why individuals perceive differences between components when the specs state a "loose" +/- 0,1db from 20-20khz. The so called rule of thumb with capacitors is anything but an accurate rule of thumb.
If a 0,68uf copper capacitor (100k load) has deep, powerful, full bodied bass then that capacitor is artificially flavoring the sound. A truly accurate capacitor of that value will sound thin, not full bodied. Unfortunately, Peter made several capacitors, including at least two Infini Capacitors with different covering colors. One is so accurate that we could not discern any difference, and the other is not.
[quote] You’re right! That should teach me to do math in my head. I dropped a digit.
Of course that makes the issue of the value of the cap even less significant sonically. With tube gear where the input impedance is typically 100K or more, a 0.68uf coupling cap is fine.[/quote]
One of the first things I look at in a component is what size is the coupling capacitors and the following grid (load) resistor.
Oh, it is still significant if one wishes to have the most accurate, natural, live sound possible in their living room. Of course, the rest of the design has to be just as good. No covering mistakes in the design here. Cheers
ag
ps. A couple of Mundorf capacitors I have checked are pretty darn accurate, and not super expensive.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
