Preamp vs DAC vs Streamer

@goodlistening64 

My NOS Brimar’s arrived yesterday. They sound spectacular! Lows are crisp, no longer muddy, mids, highs are clear. They sound silky. Overall outstanding results. Thank you for recommending the RP-1 and the tube replacement. Very happy!

My new DAC arrives tomorrow. Look forward to getting my digital side close to vinyl. Thanks again!

Craig

@goodlistening64 

The 16db spike was while running Audyssey from my Marantz using HT pass trough on the Rogue. I was using Audyssey to help adjust my subwoofer crossover points. Turned out to be a great idea revealing my problem. Again luckily, plugging the ports provides a very flat left… still some issues on the right (nearer the room corner).

I may be able to do room treatments on that side as there is a clear wall behind the right speaker.
Will let you know on the new tubes. 
BTW, I am old also, but my hearing aids are excellent. Thanks!

@signaforce 

"+16db spikes at 32hz" Yeah, that's a problem! At least you know the KEF's can dig deep..I am guessing though that such an issue would be from a movie soundtrack rather than a musical track.

You may not really need the subwoofer especially if you don't listen to music that dips below 30hz. I had used a sub for a few years but realized it was overkill and listening without one put more emphasis on the midrange frequencies - which is where most of the music resides. Doesn't help that I am getting older and my hearing is fading. 

Two ports on each speaker that houses 4- 6 1/2" woofers is fairly unique, especially a port that high up on the speaker. Throw windows and a sub into the mix and I see your dilemma and a need for measurements/data. To add to that scenario, the Brimar tubes are likely to add more bass. Good luck with that! ;)

As for the Rogue, I typically turn it on a couple of hours before I listen. My understanding is that a preamp with tubes can be left on at all times, but not the case with an amplifier. My DAC is on all the time, as Schiit suggests to do so as it will better the results. 

Please be sure to share your thoughts on the tonal changes of the Brimar tubes once you have had some time with them as they are on my want list. 

To be clear on why I really needed room correction or at least low & high pass was I was getting +16db spikes at 32hz from my R11’s! That cannot be adjusted out. Never was a problem before as my crossover point was much higher than that. But now running full range… major problem. And my room, based on windows is not conducive to bass management. 
Luckily plugging the rear ports on the R11’s alleviated the problem. I am hoping with the new tubes, and the bass management, I have in place, I can avoid the miniDSP, as I prefer to stay analog. Thanks 

@goodlistening64 

Thanks for your thoughts. The miniDSP came up on another thread I created on tuning my Rhythmic sub with line in. I had never done that in the past and only used LFE from my AVR’s using room correction. The recommendation came from audiophiles. It is a Chinese product, as is Topping, a well respected DAC. There is a US dealer that I would purchase from if I was to buy it. 
The logic of connecting digital to the miniDSP is that the miniDSP has full remote control from my harmony one. I understand the Rogue is a superior preamp, but as you know the remote does not power it on, something I was disappointed with… no issue with vinyl, but with streaming, I like to stream before going to bed, and prefer to do that remotely. I thought about trading up to the RP-5, but it is a little too tall. 
On the positive side, I think I now have the Rhyhmic property set for my R11’s and room and have a set of NOS Brimar’s on the way from Absolute Sound. I look forward to installing them when they arrive! Thanks again!

@signaforce

You may want to repost this as a starter thread in digital to find other members who may have experience with the miniDSP SHD. I doubt there are many, to be honest, but a search of miniDSP on this forum does seem to have some life.

I would advise against any whole Chinese product (engineered; mfg in China; sold online from China) but there are a subset of those that take the risk on this site, usually buying suspect cables on alibaba. 

While it is an exciting time to be an audiophile and vinyl spinner I have been noticing much more blurring of the lines when it comes to products that are labeled audiophile but are notably AV related. Most on this site will sport 2- channel setups and anything beyond that is open to derision. It is social media after all and we all miss making fun of one another without repercussions. 

The connecting factor between 2 and multiple speaker setups is the screen. Two channel setups may have always had digital readouts, toggles and flywheels, but now they are increasingly having screens big enough for menus and EQ manipulation. Having two NAD amps, I am interested in one that can utilize Dirac Live but so far all I am seeing is integrated amps. Hopefully, that will change.

What Dirac Live says can be cured, can generally be cured via acoustic panels, bass traps, etc. Many audiophiles have limitations with gear setup and having Dirac Live can be used as a tool for proper distribution of room treatment. But it's value lessens if you have generally gotten over the hump of understanding what is going on with your room with reflection points and have remedied the worst of it. Still, I would like to incorporate it at some point when it is feasible to do so, if for no other reason than confirmation bias. 

Amir at ASR measures scientifically but offers up no judgement on sound. While the product measures well, there are plenty of highly sought after audiophile electronics that do not measure well. Grain of salt, perhaps. Remember, the hardest to drive speakers are the ones that sound the best, if for no other reason than you finally found an amp that can drive them!

You definitely want your digital going through the Rogue because the output tubes will soften the edges of digital music. The stock J&J tubes- maybe not so much- but upgrading your tubes is a game changer for digital music through the Rogue. While my Yggy still cannot out shine my Rega turntable, this is the closest they have ever gotten and the Mullard tubes only accent the richness of vinyl.

A highly resolving SS preamp that can touch the Rogue is not going to cost less than $1,300 and getting a DAC included that would rival your current DAC is highly suspect. Now, if they threw in a few ShamWows and a Ginsu knife then it may be worthy of consideration!

What do you guys think of the miniDSP SHD for room correction, subwoofer management and DAC. ASR liked it and it seems to have great reviews. I would still use my Rogue for phono, running through the SHD for bass management and room correction, then run all digital through the SHD. Thoughts? Thanks 

Congrats! 
 

I’ve yet to see a dac straight to amp guy still a dac straight to amp guy after a year or so. 

The RP-1 has arrived. In my limited vinyl listening (family are in town, limiting my listening), it sounds exceptional, clear, crisp concise, beautiful. Digital also significantly improved. Life is good! Thank you all & merry Christmas/ happy holidays!

Yes, I agree my DAC is now my weakest link. Thanks 

@signaforce - let us know when you're ready to update your DAC.  We'll be happy to spend YOUR money :)  

Joking aside, there is vast knowledge of DACs on this forum at all price points.  

@signaforce for tube sourcing or another opinion Brent Jesse is an invaluable resource.  Not the same tubes in mine but in my preamp section NOS tubes that were for scientific usage (tight tolerance)  yielded fuller  bass and better stage, separation.  Rolling can be both fun and eye opening. Enjoy!

@signaforce

I see Upscale changed title for those Mullards from NOS to NEW. Guessing they received complaints i.e. deceptive practices.

I knew they were new as the price of an actual old stock Mullard would be well above the $43 price tag. Pretty sure it was this forum where I learned Russia bought rights to the Mullard design. 

As it is, Russia is the center of the tube industry because they still use them in military avionics etc. If anyone can create a new tube to match old specs it would be Russia.

A year or so ago I purchased sound deflectors on Etsy from a seller in Ukraine. Guess maybe I will call it a wash and I understand apprehension at helping an enemy. 

As an option,Brimar tubes are highly rated for Rogue products but I believe they run around $300 a pair. 

Yes, I agree my DAC is now my weakest link. Thanks 

I think the quickest way to get better sound is to get a better DAC.

The Schiit Modi is far down the chain. Move up to the Yggy or Gungnir, if you can.

One DAC I would recommend is the Ayre Codex. Unbelievable sound for the money- Probably under $1K used. And Ayre will repair/update, if needed.

Bob

@goodlistening64 

it doesn’t seem they have NOS mullards any longer. Just current production Russians. 😒

Thank you. My RT-1 arrives on Tuesday. I am excited! Interesting, Rogue recommends NOS RCA cleartops and waiting until the current tubes are burned in. 
 

Thank you for your Rogue purchase.  The RP-1 uses a pair of 12AU7s also known as ECC82 or ECC802.  Here is my best advice.  Listen to it for a month or two to allow it to fully break in and for your ears to lock on to the sound.  Then you may have a desire for greater detail, warmer midrange, or other slight changes.  That should help guide your tube upgrade choice.

Generally speaking I am a fan of vintage American tubes from RCA and Sylvania.

@signaforce 

Thank you for the kind words. Congratulations on the RP-1. 

My experience with the NOS Mullards that I got from Kevin at Upscale ended up with an ear ache while they were transitioning to sweet sounding tubes. I got hiss from one channel and did not hear it until my ears hurt. Oddly, it was only on certain tracks for whatever reason. Upscale states on the box that they were burned in for 50 hours but expect at least the first 50 hours to be one where you should either listen to near mute levels or not at all. I had not experienced this type of fits of hiss and distortion from a tube before. 

I should also relay to you that during this time I switched out my silver interconnects (DAC to Preamp) to copper ones and the sound was immediately much better. May switch to silver again at some point but for now I feel no need to go back. 

The Mullards are the first valves that I have "heard" and I am smitten. The RP-1 is generally neutral, but the Mullards are not, and thus, the journey continues..

Let us know how it all works out with your new gear.

I went with an integrated amp, streaming DAC, and a separate music server.

You left off the Wyred4Sound STP-SE preamp. I have the basic $2K version and found it better than my P6 (which I've since sold).

@signaforce, let us know what sonic changes you get.  Would like to hear about the RP-1 in your set-up.  Have dealt with Rogue and they've been very responsive and helpful.  Enjoy!

Thank you! This forum is very helpful! Very knowledgeable people. 

@signaforce you made a great decision.  This will allow you to know the front end of your system can really deliver the goods.  You can upgrade, tweak from there, maybe you won’t need to.  Enjoy. 

Thank you for all your recommendations… in particular, goodlistening! I decided that my best next play was an excellent tube/ss analog preamp. It targets my primary listening… vinyl. It will also improve my digital listening, even given my current DAC/streamer/CD player. 
After reading all the rave reviews, I just ordered the Rogue RP-1. It is everything I was looking for, except bass management, but will figure that out. Will also order the NOS Mullards. I’m excited! DAC can wait. Thanks!

If the Parasound checks all the boxes, why not listen to IT first. I used to have one of their pre-amps. It had an excellent phono pre-amp section and overall was not dull and lifeless.

My experience with the PS Audio's Bridge II card was negative. I complained to PS Audio about it dropping connections and sounding lousy and they talked me into an Air Lens which was night and day different than the Bridge II card.  I love their DAC and it plays perfectly with the AirLens streamer. 

I would go for a PS Audio Directstream (good deals on the music room) - get one with bridge ii card and sell the bluesound node to fund it.  Buy a higher end streamer later.

Another excellent option is the new Yggy More is Best, don’t choose Less is more as it is quite a dark sounding DAC (only chose it if you have a bright system that needs taming).

cheers

OP, it does seem that your digital front end might need some help relative to the vinyl.  You have nice power and speakers.  Not too knowledgeable about pre-amp separates but nonetheless, the DAC is prob holding the digital back.  As you seem to prefer vinyl so, I could suggest an R2R DAC like the MHDT  Orchid.   Also has a tube for buffer.  Upgrade it to a decent one (under $50) and in my system with a ProJect and Ortofon Orange its hard to pick the better source. A very natural and vinyl sounding DAC.  Benefit your streaming too.  Many used under $850.  

If you’re using the preamp section of a mass market AVR then a good stereo preamp should be your first move.  That cheap-ass preamp section in the AVR is killing your sound more than anything else.  You don’t need bass management in the preamp either as there are products from DSpeaker, etc. that can do that very effectively and can therefore greatly expand your stereo preamp options.  The fact that you seem to have an underpowered amp would argue to just get a good stereo integrated amp and solve both pre and power issues with one product.  FWIW.

Agree with Mike. It does sound like your DAC may be the problem for you, since you’re unhappy with both your CD and streamings---both the anthem and NAD have onboard DACs  (as does the lyngdorf) which might sound better than your schiit. As a related aside, I personally would opt for Parasound notwithstanding your dealer’s opinion.

I think you’ll find the Lyngdorf does ADA conversion as well. In general, I don’t know of (but would be glad to hear about) any preamp that does full bass management in the analog domain. By "full," I mean both high-pass for the main speakers and low-pass for the subwoofer(s), and preferably distance/phase, level, and polarity adjustments as well.

As a point of interest, the Anthem STR Preamp can avoid digital conversion for analog sources. I am not sure what happens to connected sub(s) in that case.

Using the Marantz AVR as a front end to everything you have is clearly the weakest link. 

You seem to like separates and combining a preamp with a DAC - or virtually anything - is going to lessen the quality of the preamp itself. There are plenty of preamps under 2K which would have a number of line outs for all of your gear. Rogue's RP-1 can be had used for under 1.5K. NAD does make a streamer preamp that I am sure would be a step up in sound from the Marantz.

Not a fan of Parasound, I had the 2125V2 amp for awhile it had plenty of power, it was dry and lifeless with music. I understand that it would work well with dialogue that would be fitting for TV, but music and dialogue are two different animals.

I have the Yggy and enjoy it but DAC's are the one area where inroads can and will be made in the future, so I would suggest the much cheaper Bifrost v2 which I also had and was warmer in the high-end which negates the sometimes brittle edge you can get with many DAC's. None of the DAC's I have had matched the performance of my turntable setups. I had an Xpression (one of many Pro-Ject's I started with) at one time and currently have the Rega P6/Ania setup. The Yggy did not beat the Xpression- nor the Rega P6. I had a Musical Surroundings Nova III with battery pack for both of those turntables so YMMV. Phono preamp's are typically ignored but make a huge difference just as premps to amps do in every setup. Point being, if you like the sound of vinyl, it is doubtful you will ever have a DAC that will top that sound. Someday, I believe, that may not be true but turning and burning on DAC's is a great way to lose money in a quest to sit and listen, rather than searching and flipping...although there is nothing wrong with that! It's just a money pit and you may want to tell your wife that there is nothing wrong with that, if that makes sense to her! (It won't). 

Preamps are the front end and I had a few before the RP-1 but I would highly recommend you purchase one with tubes in the output stage (like the RP-1). I would not suggest however that you go to far beyond that as, for me and others here who generally agree, you really can only hear the output tubes and if you purchased one that has more than 2 tubes, you are entering an area that may prove murky and fundamentally change everything.

My experience with a PrimaLuna 100 was one that made me realize I had too many tubes in front of my SS amps. There was a veil and rolling tubes did not lift the curtain. The RP-1 was far better than the PrimaLuna at a lower price and less maintenance. But, I will admit, the PrimaLuna was the ONLY piece of gear that I ever bought and sold for more - 3 years later at more than $550 my purchase price!! That never happens, but they are popular for reasons I can only imagine that have to do with looks. It looked awesome! WOW look at thing! But Sound? Does that matter? lol

So after switching out the two stock J&J tubes that the RP-1 comes with (to NOS Mullards) I was completely sold on the RP-1 and it is a keeper.

If you are considering a Preamp that would include a DAC, Streamer, etc., then you may want to just get an integrated amp with all those things included. It does get crowded with separates, and the added cost of cables is something you must contend with. But as soon as you get a preamp that does more than just that you are weakening the link at the preamp level..if that makes sense. For me, I will never use the headphone amp in the RP-1 but that I saw as a giveaway. If a Preamp comes with a Streamer or Phono preamp you are getting more than a preamp, but lesser of a preamp...if THAT makes any sense!? 

Good luck, you seem to be where I once was and you should not make the same mistakes that I did! 

Thanks, but Anthem & NAD (I believe) both do ADA conversions. Not a showstopper, but seems like unnecessary electronic conversions and eliminating any better quality external DAC’s. Will look at Lyngdorf. Thanks 

At your budget anthem and nad do what you seek....moving up price wise you can look at lyngdorf, which I haven't heard.