PrimaLuna Evo 200 underwhelming

Which tubes are you running right now? The issue may be synergy with your speakers which are 86dB and dip down as low as 5 ohms - not an ideal match on paper with EL34 amp.  You may want to try a fresh set of power tubes (I'd go for EL34's as I know the amp accommodates  6L6G, 6L6GC, 7581A, EL34, EL37, 6550, KT66, KT77, KT88, KT90, KT120, and KT150.)

Might want to try working with the speaker positioning.

I bought an ex. Display Primaluna Evo 200 a couple of weeks ago, mainly based on all the rave reviews and excellent comments on various forums.

Since it's couple of weeks old, I assume its already well broken-in. If you don't like the sound of this amp in your system, my suggestion is sell it and move on, synergy is the key! Not all amps can match well with all speakers and your tastes...

Agree with 3 Easy….I don’t know your speakers but looking at the manufacturers website I’m guessing a  hi powered solid-state amp would probably work best.

Hi all, thanks for all your prompt responses, it’s very heartening to know I am not alone trying to figure this out. The tubes are EL34’s. I have tried all sorts of speaker positions and basically have the same problem. I auditioned a Prologue pre amp with a Cyrus power amp with these speakers and it sounded terrific, so that’s when I decided that I preferred the tube amp sound. I didn’t want separate boxes and wires anymore, So I went for an integrated instead, thinking it would be powerful enough for a small room. There is plenty of power, or should I say volume, it’s the detail that’s missing. I have tried several solid state amps including Naim, Roksan, Rega and they all drive the speakers well enough but the sound, to my ears, is just too hard and sterile. I’ve just got myself in a mess I think and can’t find the way out.

I would try the KT150 tubes. The EL34 tubes will give you a fantastic midrange but not the extreme bass or highs. Are you using the integrated in triode mode or ultralinear mode?   You could also call Kevin Deal at Upscale Audio, as he is the importer of Prima Luna.  Tell him what you have for speakers and see what he says. 

I must that things do sound a whole lot different through the Tannoy’s. Maybe keep the Evo 200 and sell the Robson speakers. Thanks for all your replies, much appreciated.

Thanks again all, sorry if I have not responded directly to any of your responses, I am new to this forum and not quite sure how it works, needless to say, I have appreciated all the responses and advice. To be honest, I think the Robson speakers are the problem, it sounds like the detail is in there somewhere but can’t get out, if that makes sense. There is so much more going on through the Tannoy’s, which are of course easier to drive. Somebody said it’s about synergy and think that is the key. I am in the UK, so find it difficult to get help from distributors here, even the one I bought it from.

@golfnut2  

the sound seems muffled. There seems to be a hole where the mid range detail should be.

I assumed you have tried your Robson speakers with other amps and they didn't have these negative characteristics?  If so, what amps have sounded good when paired with your Robsons?  Just trying to see if it's a topology synergy thing in play here.

I'm going to suggest maybe some bigger Tannoy speakers. Maybe with some Kimber PBJ or Timbre interconnects. It's not the amp, that amp can sound magical but not so great with small speakers. My little LS50s worked best with lots of solid state power. 

Thanks. I have tried Naim XS3, Rega Elicit-r, Roksan K3 and my own Naim Unity Atom. All drive the speaker well, except the Atom, which actually sounds nice but lacks power and mid range detail. I didn’t like the hard sterile, almost unrelenting sound of the others. The best I heard was a PL Prolougue pre-amp with a Cyrus power amp. The sound was amazing but out of my budget, hence I saw the Evo 200 and thought it might sound as good. It nearly does but the lack of mid detail is just so obvious. The Evo 200 has a 30 day return policy, so I have the option to return it, or try and sell the Robson’s and start again. 

The Prima Luna is all about midrange detail, so it’s the loudspeaker matchup that is not working. The Prima Luna can easily be matched to 10,000 dollar loudspeakers, you might want to think about giving your loudspeakers a good solid budget for upgrade. Upscale can really help you here. 

Many thanks for taking the time to help me. I am sure you are right, I do love the Primaluna sound as compared to solid state. It does sound much better through my old Tannoys, which says it all really. I wish I had 10,000 dollars to spend on speakers, that’s way out of my league. I might just look out for some bigger Tannoys. Many thanks everyone for your advice.

@stereo5 your recommendation of the dealer is at odds with my experience this morning…I am trying to buy a set of tubes from the Upscale folks, and I got this back after the phone rang to VM:
“We stay away from giving really specific recommendations on tubes. We don’t ever want to promise something and not deliver.”

So what would you recommend for Vandersteen 2C ?El34, ????

Sean. S@upscaleaudio he will get you the answer your looking for.

holmz- Vandy 2Cs are one of the easiest speaker loads to drive.  back in the day i driven them with a < 20 w integrated amp very nicely.

Tubes, tubes, tubes. KT120 or 150's

Love the KT170 in my X200

I owned a Primaluna Dialogue Premium for a couple of years. KT88 tubes made the best sonics for my ears with better bass, more power, and a little extra body in the midrange while smoothing out the top end. 
That said, I know the veil or miffed sound you speak of. I noticed it most clearly when trying an LTA Z10 with half the watts of the Primaluna and heard that veil lifted with better bass and just as much midrange beauty. Doesn’t help your current situation, but a good place to try next. 

@itsjustme what did you replace the 2c with? and how much better is it now?
Would like to understand what tubes I would be considering.
Or maybe I need to fix up the one VTL monoblock that is not working. But I got the PrimaLuna to give them a whirl, so...

Trade it back in and try to get a used Primaluna Dialogue HP integrated then put in some KT88's or even better KT120's then hook the speakers to the 4 ohm taps and try it in triode mode for more detail, or ultralinear for a little brighter top end.

Please humor me: please check *carefully* the speaker cable connections on the back of the PrimaLuna. It is easy in poor lighting to mistake the 8ohm tap for the ground. Also check the connections on your speakers. Usually these things are something simple that was overlooked. Been there and done that! 

You should not be surprised Kevin dealebig build up 
on an6 good vacuum tube amp  C core transformers are the best 
and used in the best amplifiers around the world Not toroidal 
transformers. They are used in Solid state amplifiers.
that's s red flag .  And on their preamp section cheap $15 Alps volume pot,  quality would have a resistive ladder or electronic  not a $15 alps pot silver Round cylinder  and made in communist China ,No Thanks.

I am delighted with the Quicksilver Integrated tube amplifier driving Focal Aria 906 speakers. Smooth and detailed both.

@holmz.  He will give you recommendations on tubes for the Evo.

New cheap Tung Sol 7581A are excellent replacements for EL34s. Clear and transparent with great bass. The vintage Tannoy Mercury speakers were very warm and creamy so other speakers should brighten things up.

+noromance
before I went off  buying new speakers I would try some tweeks.  The 3 tweeks that I saw the most significant improvement in my tube amp system was using:
#1-NPS enhancer on all the connections.  It makes no logical sense but this really improves sound more than any of my tweeks. Crazy…
https://highfidelitycables.com/
#2- Qsa yellow fuse in the amp. Another crazy improvement defying logic. https://www.tweekgeek.com
#3- Tubes.  Vintage 12au7 preamp tubes make a big difference.  Rca blackplates, Rca cleartops, GE blackplates from 50’s-60’s are affordable, available and good place to start before getting into more exotic rarer tubes.  Switching to 6L6GC / 7581 is a good choice.  It’s a very musical tube with adequate power. Talk to Brent Jesse for advice.  http://www.audiotubes.com
Good luck with your improvement.

Golfnut2

Before you spend more money I would call Joel at Upscale Audio, he has a Prima Luna integrated and Tannoy speakers and he’s their amp and speaker guy. 

Just like when your golf game starts to fall apart you go see the pro.

Good luck.

If you like the tannoy sound, look a bit towards Scotland to Fyne Audio.  My 702 are powered by a 30 wpc class a solid state amp.  Tried amp with paradigm while waiting for the Fynes 
same efficiency and ohm as Fynes and it was a mess.  Fynes make beautiful non hi fi music with just a wee bit of power

Wondering if it was ex display or a return.
I can't see bad pairing being enough to cause the problem you mention in a significant way. You could also try the headphone output to see how that sounds. 
I wonder if the tubes are nearing end of life. If it's been on display it could have also been running day in day out every day....

I have an Evo400 (upgraded from PL integrated HP). Have large KEF speakers and sound is fabulous (old rock, male and female voice, and some jazz). Upgrading center preamp tubes to NOS 12au7 make the most difference. Tried KT120 but went back to EL34 with fancy Sophia Electric. To me Gold Lion KT66 are far more musical (and cheaper than KT120 and Sophia EL34). Since you have PL and Tannoy, I would call Upscale Audio; They carry both and will suggest best tubes for that combination. 

I'm sorry I can't help with your issue but I had to comment on your speakers. I've not heard them but I did look them up and wow, they do some really fine cabinet work, very nice looking speakers.
https://imgur.com/a/l23dwsS

Thanks for all the great responses, if I could figure out how to answer them individually,I would. Some great suggestions and a lot to think about and work on. Just to say, the Robson Acoustics speakers are beautiful, as you can see on their website, they are just so difficult to partner and the Evo 200 just can’t do it. It is so frustrating because I think I have two excellent products but they just don’t like each other. I don’t feel that I should tweak with the Evo, since it is still in its 30 day return period and they have agreed to take it back for a full refund if I am not happy with it. Sadly, I think that is the way to go and then trade up to something else. Many thanks for all your help, you guys are awesome and I am absolutely hooked on the tube sound.

As strange as this sounds, I had a similar experience with a PL Dialogue Premium.
After 150 hours it still sounded disappointing (mostly veiled). Preamp was a Don Sachs...so no problem there.

My (nos) Carver TFM-35 was put it back in the chain. It was easily smoother, more detailed with upper end sparkle. Gave me a lot more respect for this amp. 
Decided to give PL one more chance and traded up (luckily at no cost because it's Upscale Audio) to an Evo 400. It sounded great from the first note and just got better from there. Not an ounce of hyperbole to say it was an ocean of difference from the Dialogue series. 

My take: There are a lot of people who swoon over their Dialogue series, so maybe some doped ones get through QC? Otherwise I can't explain it.

Also, I have messed up the phases on the speaker wires on the PL. As mentioned, very easy to mess this up on PL.

My Salk speakers are 88db/6 ohm and dip just below 4ohms. Sounded great using 4 ohm taps for a year. Just changed to 8ohm taps and I now get a slightly better presentation in upper midrange and highs... still have good bass slam.

I use Tung Sol 7581A. A little upgrade from stock EL34. More upper end sparkle, same midrange smoothness...a shade more deep bass. Less power though.

A word about Primaluna: if you're looking for ultimate in detail...look elsewhere. These are fun, smooth and romantic sounding amps with good bass slam. 

If you feel it lacks dynamics swapping to KT88's will help open things up. I much preferred KT88's over el34's and my speakers are also 86db. I'd try those before KT120's or 150's to stay within the comfort zone of the rest of the circuit. You also mentioned that it sounds muffled which can be a characteristic of the preamp tubes, in particular the gain tubes. I'd start by swapping the gain and driver tubes if you don't have any extra 12Au7's on hand, but it's worth experimenting there as well.  The preamp stage has a huge impact on sound quality, particular transparency, so don't overlook the small tubes.       

Also:
Tech at Upscale audio said I needed a full 200 hours for the Dialogue Premium to break in.
I honestly couldn't see it covering that much ground in 50 hours but maybe I was being hasty. Anyway, glad I traded up.

I demoed the Prima Luna Evo 300 against four other tube integrated amps; see https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/integrated-tube-amp-demo-follow-up. In comparison, I found the Evo 300 to be somewhat veiled, or "muffled", in its sound just as you have. 

BTW, I have now moved on to a Pass Labs XA 30.8, with Conrad Johnson preamp, which is another giant step up in sound quality.

Thanks again for your comments and suggestions. There is a lot to take on board, so please forgive me for not replying to each response, I am not sure how to do that but I appreciated every one of them. There seems a lot more to owning a tube amplifier than I ever could have imagined. Thanks.

Robson Opulus rated as 8ohm nominal, 5ohm minimum impedance, therefore, no steep impedance curve. 86db sensitivity pretty low. Still, the Evo 200 should be driving these speakers pretty good, just need to turn up volume pot a bit more than usual.

I have PL Dialogue Four, diy modded with boutique caps and Takman resistors. Even in stock form certainly wasn't reticent in midrange to extent what you're hearing, I also own custom built 300B SET and 845 SET amps to compare with. I'd wager you have worn output tubes, and KT family may be best for those speakers, EL 34 most romantic of  any tube for that amp. otherwise just not good match. If it was me, I'd try KT in the Evo before giving up, that integrated should match well with impedance of the Robson, just need more volume which the KT family will give. Again, the EL34, worn or not may be your issue. Buying another tube integrated in the price range your talking about isn't going to make some sort of sea change.

There is an interaction between your speakers and the tube amp because the tube amp should be strong in the midrange unless a mismatch occurs, which is what you are experiencing.

Thanks for digging up the info on my speakers and also for the mismatch info. I have tried to swap around the input tubes as suggested and I can’t budge them. I am frightened to use too much force incase I damage something I thought they should easily pull out but I seriously can’t move them.

Try gently rocking them back and forth in all directions while pulling upwards.

PL has a warm, pleasant sound. To my ears, it was not too detailed. It is a good amp in my opinion to mate with modern loudspeakers that are detailed, analytical and bright as it balanced those things out nicely. 
But I too found that over time PL was not exactly what I was looking for.  I would, however, recommend trying different power tube variants if you can afford it. 

I will have anther go at swapping the input tubes, they solid though. Apparently the was ex display and never used, it certainly looked untouched out of the box. Just answer an earlier question, the Robsons sounded great through a PL Prologue Pre amp with Cyrus X Power amp. In hind sight, maybe I should have gone for that combo and it may have been a whole different story. 

So, $1800 for Cyrus, $2200 for PL Prologue, $4k vs $3k, so assuming higher cost components and separates makes sense. Sounds like you'll always doubt the PL Evo, regret not purchasing the PL and Cyrus. I'd say go with the combo you already enjoyed.

Thanks and I am sure you are right, it’s hard to make the right decision sometimes and we always seem to be looking for something, whatever we have. That’s the nature of this hi fi disease. 

@sns +1!

I own a PrimaLuna power amplifier. The stock Chinese EL 34 tubes sound like crap. Very anemic. I don’t care what Deal says. Buy a quad set of Tung Sol KT 150’s. HUGE, TALKING NIGHT N DAY DIFFERENCE. You’ll hear bass you didn’t know your speakers were capable of producing. Also, you’ll have to remove the tube cage with the large and tall  “Christmas looking KT 150 bulbs”.  Instant horse power! You can thank me later….