Recommend an amp + pre for ESL 57s and a new turntable (way out of my league)

The Aragon sounded great on my 989s.  I think the Bedini is a great choice.  It was easy to replace caps and still sounded great.  Let us know what you decide. 

If your budget is in the $1500 range - in my opinion, the best high current dual mono amp and preamp on the used market may be the Aragon 4004 mkII and the Aragon 24k with Phono Stage and IPS outboard power supply.  Really gets a grip on my Apogee Stages and Maggies.

ChatGPT answer

https://chatgpt.com/c/68a5ebde-4a9c-832c-83e4-160cc2d34140

I hear the 57's as a Stacked Array used at 16 Ohm when driven by a Sansui AU 111.

I never detect anything that suggests there is something quite different to my own stacked Array used at 8 Ohm.

Either are a pleasure to be hearing their End Sounds being produced when Analogue and Digital are the source.       

@elliottbnewcombjr I've found that Quad ESL57 prefer push-pull tube amps with 16ohm output transformer taps.

Like I said, I find that TT worrisome, when new, certainly as a geriatric, but evidently, if/when you get it ’right’, it’s amazing.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/brilliant-corners-15-well-tempered-lab-amadeus-254-gt-turntable

https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/tested-the-well-tempered-amadeus-turntable-and-tonearm/

I have owned the 57 and 63 at the same time. I agree with @cfarrow in that the point source design of the 63 is one of Walker's best efforts and the coherency is amazing. However, there is something about the 57 that makes it more seductive and pleasing to listen to for me. 

While I respect Kent McCollum's expertise with Quads, I don't think it's a good idea to use high powered amps with the 57s, even with the protection circuit. I have an OTL amp designed by Roger Modjeski that has 2, 4, 8, 16, and 32 ohm taps and puts out 12 watts from any of those taps. So I can use any with the 57 and it will sound very good. Whatever amp you get for the speakers use the tap that sounds the best.

The best taps may depend on the amplifier. Try 8 or 16 and hear what sounds best.

I’ve tried many amps on my Quads. The Heath UAD-1 sounded good in a reflective space, but didn’t have enough power to drive them in my living room. A Scott 5791 integrated was just OK. An Anthem Integrated One was nice on midrange, but loose on the low end. A Bedini 25/25 was also pretty good overall, but was unreliable, and replacement caps made it a bit thin-sounding. Finally went up a bit in price and got a used Cronus Magnum. It ticked all the boxes. But I still needed a sub to cover the lowest frequencies (an 8” Velodyne, crossing over gently at 50hz). Swapped the KT88’s for KT120s and barely use the sub anymore. Should add that the speakers had been upgraded by One Thing Audio by the previous owner, with the benefit of extended high frequency response and added power protection. The Quads are magical for many kinds of music, but not all. Also, even when perfectly positioned, their magic can only really be experienced within an 18” circle that fits only one head at a time. Definitely not a “social speaker”- more like a awesome set of room-size headphones.

I should add that they also benefit from any improvements at the source end. Assuming a good preamp with phono, you may well find that the shape of your stylus has a bigger impact on sound quality than anything else in the chain.

what impedance taps are best________?

@elliottbnewcombjr - the 57 has a modulus of impedance that rises as frequency falls and falls as frequency rises. They are a difficult load but not in the way difficult cone speakers are.

@richardbrand 

I am familiar with all Quad ESL Models being driven by SS and Valve Power Amp's and having both Analogue Vinyl and Digital CD as the main Source Materials.

Certain unowned models are ones I have multiple hours of being in their company used in systems I am very familiar with.

I have only ever felt later production 63's were falling short of Sibling models, to the point of being unliked.

Early production 63's, not too easy to find, had been as impressive as any Quad ESL that has been demo's to me.

@arg6442 No Prob's with the Inquiries at my end.

The N'chrome is the Modular 86 (65W), there was once a 286 option, but not a current design and the current increased Power Model is the 386, my reports on experiences had, was instrumental in quite a few in the UK adopting the 386 and they remain loyal to this day, having it supersede Power Amp's with a good pedigree and reputation.

are they 16 ohm?

do others think it is important to use actual 16 ohm taps, or is using 8 ohm taps for these OK?

the answer might narrow the amp choices

@pindac 

That article was an interesting snippet for me, especially as I am fettling a Garrard 301 turntable my dad gave me years ago.

The article contains a quote 

This is where we think the original designers, Peter Walker and D.T. Williamson, might have ended up as an ultimate statement product

I beg to differ.  Peter Walker knew the limitations of the original ESL, now known as the 57, and six years after its introduction started work on a completely new design, the ESL-63 which was finally released into production about 18 years later.  The ESL-63 has evolved through a few models up to the ESL-2912X released some weeks ago.  Not bad for a 60 year old design!

Major changes included: flat panels, not curved; integral dust covers; incipient ionization detection; protection from high input voltage; far kinder impedance characteristics; oriented for stereo not mono playback.

By far the biggest difference, and something that still differentiates from all other panel speakers, is the creation of a virtual point-source of sound about 1-ft behind the panel.  To visualise this, imagine a sound wave radiating from such a source.  The wave first intersects the centre of the panel, then expands outwards in a circular pattern.  Pater Walker's design creates eight concentric stators which approximate rings.  The signal to the outer rings is delayed according to the speed of sound to give the uncanny effect that the sound is coming from1-ft behind the speaker.

The result is that the sound is almost perfectly coherent, allowing the ear-brain to perceive a huge soundstage even in the presence of wall, ceiling and floor reflections.  By contrast, the ESL-57 has a very small sweet spot!

Lot’s of advice, I have owned multiple pairs of 57’s over the years.  These aren’t starter speakers and do require some attention to detail to get the most out of them.  These are not an easy load for a lot of amplifiers out there and I would recommend tubes for the amplification, based on your limited budget for separates I would highly recommend an integrated, I would look for something vintage thats been updated or would also recommend the Quad amp/preamp combo the Bourne mentioned as those do sound good with the Quads and you can find the amps that have been updated for not a lot of money.  I have used integrated amps and gotten very nice sound from them with the Quads.  Kent from Electrostatic Solutions in KC likes to use ARC amps with his and he is not wrong with using higher powered tube amps with the 57’s and I ran ARC Ref 110 with my highly modified pair I got from Kent/Robin Wyatt and the sound was some of the best I have had.  I would recommend not to rush in your purchase and take advice from actual owners not forum surfers so you don’t wast the limited funds you have and buy the wrong piece(s) & not get the sound your looking for, also make sure you have the room for these as you need to get them out off your back wall for best results.

It's not just the treble panel you need to be concerned about but it's good you have the protection circuit. My recommendation would be to reach out to one of the Quad experts, either Kent McCollum at Electrostatic Solution or Sheldon Stokes. I know Kent sells both the clamp and EHT boards and if you are handy and can DIY, they are not difficult to replace. Personally, when I bought my first pair of 57s I sent them to Kent to have them checked out. When I knew what I had to work with I was able to understand what it would take to restore them. 

Thank you all for your responses!

@clio09 -- I am fairly certain that my speakers have the treble unit protection from the factory. It is my understanding that that's what you mean by Clamp Board? They are SN36228 and 36260. I know that this part, as well as the ETH unit, might need to be replaced? Do you have any advice on determining when to replace, which replacement parts to use, and other parts that might need replacement? I still have not actually listened to them as I'm worried about plugging in my HK.

@elliottbnewcombjr -- I appreciate the sentiment and see your point of view swapping the whole system out. At the very least I must keep the quads, they are of sentimental value to both my friend and I. I would like to try to keep the whole thing together, but if it turns out that the tt+cart aren't great for me, what should I be looking at instead? any MCs that come to mind? Turntables? Not sure how easy it is to sell this stuff and it would pain me to downgrade. Will definitely have someone check it out and inquire as to the hours on it. I don't have a ton of specific info, but I do know that all of these things have been well taken care of (not sitting in a hot storage unit or in an attic).

@pindac -- I am very, very interested in this neurochrome route. Is the model you're referring to the Modulus 86 (65W)? Can you provide any more information on what you mean by "a increased Power Output build of a N’chrome used A/B"? Sorry for the newb question.

@peter_s -- Thank you for the rec, the rm10 also seems like a great potential option.

I worked for Roger Modjeski for 5 years and we restored my pair of ESL 57s together. There are some things that you would need to understand before selecting the approprate amplification for the speakers. First @peter_s made a good recommendation for the Music Reference RM-10. Although the story about the amp being designed by Roger for the 57 is more myth than reality. It just so happened he owned 57s and Vandersteen 2s at the time and he originally tested the amp on the latter but then put the amp on the 57s and found it worked well with them too.

Do your speakers have the "clamp" board. This is very important to know as without it your choice of amps is going to be very limited. The ESL 57s were designed to be driven by voltage, and as mentioned previously their voltage limit is about 35V. Exceeding this limit can cause the panels to arc and eventually fail. Even with the clamp board I wouldn’t go over board with amplification, or play them too loud. These speakers if operating optimally will be full of detail, even at lower listening levels. Another note as pointed out by @pindac is that the speaker presents a capacitive load to amplifiers. Very different than the resistive loads boxes and planars present to amplifiers.

You have a unique pair of speakers. It is best to learn as much about them as possible before making an amplification decision. There are good resources out there to learn from. My advice would be to be learn before you buy.

I wonder how people think a Fisher 500C Tube Receiver (it has 16 ohm taps) would pair with OP's Quads?

I've been too lazy to take photos and list my Fisher 500c Tube Receiver for sale. I overhauled it, then had Steve Leung at VAS align it's FM Tuner. Mine is dead quiet, and has all the vintage features incl.  MM Phono, and a Tape Loop which could be used for a Chase Remote Line Controller to keep all the vintage features and get Remote Volume and Remote Balance.

The Link will show what certain people think about the 57’s and what they are able to be 60ish Years on from their launch.

Tim De Paravicini was the first to do something like this back in the early 90’s and I was quite fortunate to be able to receive a demo’ of them at an audio show during this era. I became a 57 owner shortly after, and have maintained my loyalty since.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/emia-re-visioned-quad-esl-57-loudspeakers-garrard-301-turntable-schroeder-and-schick

I know the Miyajima Labs Shilabe cartridge very very and listen to it used on a AP10 R with Glanz 12" Arm, through an All Valve Amplification System where Quad  2912 Speakers produce the End Sound, the Cart' works in a very enjoyable fashion which I suggest is never going to fatigue a person, but help find the edge of the seat on a regular occasion, there'll be no slouching back for too long.

I nor any of my friends have owned them, I have only seen/heard them long ago in shows in NYC

wiki about the speakers, several cautions about what type of amplifier

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quad_Electrostatic_Loudspeaker

excerpt

"

Its impedance is specified as ’30-15 ohm in range 40 Hz-8 kHz falling off above 8 kHz’,^[20] although another source states ’impedances are approximately 1.8 Ohms at 20 kHz but 60 Ohms at 150 Hz’,^[5] and its load is highly capacitive. It does not consume large amounts of power so much as it feeds it back to the amplifier in opposition at some points during each cycle. This is very demanding on amplifiers’ stability.^[17]

Although it is designed to be used with the QUAD II, 303, or 405 power amplifiers with limiters,^[21] a power amplifier capable of delivering 15 watts per channel suffices – excessive voltage input is known to cause arcing within the speaker panels.^[17] In fact, the instructions book states that any properly-regulated amplifier delivering no more than 33 V peak into any load is unlikely to cause damage to the speaker.^[21] Electrostatic speakers are more accurately rated by voltage, not power. In the ESL’s case, at the rated nominal impedance of 16 ohms, the limit of 33 peak volts would be reached when the amplifier’s power output reaches 15 watts (if it were driving a conventional load).^{[citation needed]}

The most common failure modes were loss of sensitivity caused by dust infiltrating the speaker panels, and internal arcing of the panels caused by excessive power to the step-up transformer;^[22] use at high altitudes may also cause the same effect.^[23] Also, because of its novel electrical characteristics, the speaker could cause some amplifiers to become unstable and could result in damage to either or both. Late in the speaker’s life, many owners found that the highly-stable 15-watt Naim NAIT launched in 1983 worked well with the ESL.^[24]"

.........................................................

IF you need 16 ohm taps, that will limit your choices, my speakers are 16 ohm (but highly efficient), I tried and love this MK1 version which has 16 ohm taps (later versions 4,8 only), 22 wpc triode/45wpc ultralinear, and I found I like the sound of 6sl7 6sn7. Unfortunately, the bias adjust is internal, no bias meter. Perhaps people who have owned quads can comment if they think it would be a good pairing.

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650241412-cayin-a-88t-integrated-tube-amplifier-gold-lion-kt88s-nos-6sn76sl7-extras-excellent-condition/

You don’t see the version with 16 ohm taps listed often. I use mine with a tube preamp, (McIntosh mx110z) with MM Phono, and use a SUT for MC with Pass for MM. (Fidelity Research FRT-4). That SUT does not have an option that is good/ideal for the cartridge’s specs which I found in this old review

https://www.stereophile.com/content/miyajima-shilabe-phono-cartridge

"0.23mV (output) The internal impedance is listed as about 16 ohms."

You may need a MC Phono Stage with independent control of gain and impedance, FRT-4 has 4 options, but the impedance is resultant/fixed to the gain, the closest choice (30 ohm on dial) is xfactor of 18.27, the resultant impedance shown to a MM 47k input would be 141 ohms, a bit low for the formula target of 16ohms x 10 = 160 ohms.

This is why I suggest you consider a new MM cartridge now, save/check the gifted used MC, use it later when you know more and have had a chance to save for it.

@arg6442 As stated I know the 57’s very well.

Before making these 57’s your Speaker, you can do a few basic checks to learn of the condition. 

When Powered on without any device attached they should be deftly quiet. an ear on the Grill should not detect any noise, even though something is occurring to let you know they are on. 

When attached to a System and Powered On, with substantial VC rotation and no music being played, being approx’ 6ft away should not indicate they are  Powered On, there should be a quietness. 

If there is a noise detected, these are very Vintage, don’t be too upset, there is numerous contributors to diagnose and guide to what the repair will look like. 

One of my owned Pairs was fully overhauled bt OTA in 2015, the other and original purchased pair were fully serviced by Quad in the 90’s.

There are 57’s never had their grill removed and are working as per the design intent or 97% of it. 

I can’t work out where the notion come from about your only inquiring about a Phonostage?? 

My suggestion for an Power Amplifier stands it iis worthwhile investigating further. 

I have heard a increased Power Output build of a N’chrome used A/B in a system costing close to $200K when a $50K Soulution Amp, is the Power Amp and a $180K system when a 211 Valve Amp was in use. 

The N’chrome when used in the system, devalued the system to approx’ $152K.  and was not the  ’Hands Down and Beaten’ runner up on that day, it kicked butt Karate Kid Style and was not letting neither High End Valve or SS, teach it a lesson.

Another cost effective option: musical reference rm-10 amplifier. Designed for the quads. 

What luck, congrats, but you have heard 'be careful ..... bearing gifts',

That is a combo of 3 very unique vintage products that will require you researching, learning, acquiring a few tools and skills to get the best out of them.

Their age predicts maintenance may be needed as received or soon, so think about that.

I have inherited and been given some very nice equipment over the years, each is a fork in the road, chosen for you by friends and fate. 

I was given a Thorens TD124 with SME 3009 Tonearm, a wonderful combo, but I needed to restore both, and, when done, I found/learned the bearing design of the wonderful TT is very susceptible to vertical movement, and my wood floors are quite springy, so love it as I sat listening (after tip-toeing away), I had to make a change.

I still miss it, but, great as it was, it was not a good choice for this location. Are these gifts good you you and your location?

Those ESL speakers are special, however, most who keep them, to retain what they are best at, arrange the listening space around their design, and add supplemental bass, usually with it's own amplification. IOW, they are NOT full range speakers like you have had in the past.

Or, for some, perhaps you, your content, at not too high listening level, they are 'just what I always wanted'.

I don't want to be a downer, but don't rush in, you might want to sell these gifts and choose different speakers for instance, perhaps start with a good MM cartridge, move into MC moving coil and necessary pre-preamp later, and the TT, it is quite unique and it's parts are very old which is worrisome, perhaps it has been restored along the way, do you know?

The Moving Coil Cartridge's review

https://www.stereophile.com/content/miyajima-shilabe-phono-cartridge

It has specifics that I would not choose, it is what I (not everyone) consider a heavy tracker (lately I've gone from modern MC tracking at 2.0g back to vintage MM that track at 1.25g)

"It weighs 10.4gm. It's a low-compliance design designed to track at 2.5–3.2gm, which is unusually heavy for a modern cartridge" .

Do you have any knowledge of hours of play on it's stylus, or someone who can inspect it for you? I just won an auction at Yahoo Japan for a used AT160ml with beryllium cantilever, unknown hours, but I have Steve and Ray Leung at VAS just down the road to check for me.

Berning EA-230

Whether the 303 is a good fit will depend on how much the OP wants to put into maintaining the electronics. These pieces are very old (as old as the speakers themselves) and have been known to go on the fritz if they have not been recently restored. I’m assuming the reissue versions are not being recommended as the OP’s budget is too low. Considering the OP is a newer enthusiast, I wouldn’t push him down that way, either new or used. But that’s just me  

@arg6442 One thing about cloned amps is that they tend to use similar circuitry, but typically cheaper components, especially in tbe transformers, which add a cashier, more fatiguing sound. Unless you can demo the unit, or if the price is simply too attractive, it’s best to demo with the speakers before committing. While the ST-70 likely sounds very good with the 57’s, I’d suggest looking at more modern sounding amps. The ST-70 is a bit rounded and lush, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but paired with the 57s, you may find yourself wanting more on the high frequencies that you may not be able to get. 

I don’t always recommend them, but some of Primaluna’s offerings, a Rogue Cronus, or Quicksilver’s amps can likely do the trick. They are a bit more linear to match the 57s, and then you can tailor them with tubes of your choice down the line. There may be other brands/models, but they are eluding me. $1,500 doesn’t leave you too many choices for both an amp and money left for good tubes. 

For a decent phono for not much money, look into a Pro-Ject Tube Box S or DS on the used market. They can generally be had for $250-350, and spending $100 on better tubes will take you really far with them. 

For used gear, scan hifishark.com, which aggregates results from multiple online marketplaces. They even have a sold price that may give you some sort of idea of what an item typically sold for, or at least listed for before it sold. Keep in mind some are sold at lower than list.

I imagine that the 303 would be a good match on a budget, try to get a restored one.  I have used the Bedini 25/25 and it is a great sweet spot for a reasonable price.  You could post a "wanted" on USAM.

@pindac I owned my first pair of 57's from 1981 to 2000 when I reluctantly sold them. I used a Bedini 25/25 with them along with a pair of Futterman H3aa OTL tube amps. In 2018 I bought two pairs of 57's to use in a stacked array. I was also able to buy another pair of Futterman H3aa's complete with twelve 6LF6 output tubes.

@pindac : The OP needs a phono stage to utilize his turntable and moving coil cartridge.The Quad 33 has a fine phono stage. It will require a SUT (Step Up Transformer) to use with the Miyajima cartridge. A Bellari SUT is about $350. I have one. It is an excellent SUT!

I also have a nicely restored HK TA-230 tube integrated amp. That will work with the 57's though I have yet to try it out with them. I still think the 303 amp is superior. A 33 and 303 pair can be found within your budget.

I have years of History owning the 57's and have them today in use as a Stacked  Array.

The same Speakers are also used both Single Array and Stacked Array in other systems I own.

I have heard them driven by high quality Power Amp's from very low Watts to more than adequate Watts with Valve Amplification, where Valve Selection has been carefully considered.

I have also heard the 57's used with SS Amp's and SS Amp's vs Valve Amp's.

When being demo'd the 57's using a Neurochrome Modular 65, in comparison to Valve Amp's costing 20 x the N'chrome price, I was quite shocked at how impressive the SS Amp' presented an End Sound.

Recently I have loaned the N'chrome and it is resident in my system to be used alongside my Valve Amp's driving my 57's and other owned speakers.

My suggestion is there is a very affordable way to get very very close to the very best End Sound the 57's can deliver and that is to use the N'chrome Modular 65, it is worthwhile learning more.

The Pre Amp need not be too exotic, a Slagle Autoformer has been used on mine for periods and loaned out to be used with others, where the End Sound even though showing a hint of a rich tone has been extremely detailed and right for the 57. 

N'chrome also produce a Transparent Pre Amp, as well as Big Bottle Audio, for either of these it is worthwhile learning more.

Monies will be left to make further choices for other devices. 

I recommend a Quad 303 amp and the matching Quad 33 preamp. I have a nicely restored 303 to use with my 57’s. The 303 amp was designed specifically to drive the 57's. The Quad pre and amp is a heavenly match with the 57’s.

Thank you! Do any stick out? ST70 is the obvious choice, but interestingly enough, it's the one amp that the friend who gave me the speakers said wasn't a great match. Someone local to me is selling a decent-looking ST-70 clone for an excellent price.

Invest in good amplification first and improve your phono stage later. At your budget, I recommend looking at an integrated amp instead of separates. The ESL 57 is one of the best sounding speakers ever made so as long as you can find quality amplification to power it. I suggest either a Class A tube amp at least 25wpc (EL34 based ones are quite a great match with Quad) or a high current solid state amplifier. The 57s are very difficult to drive in the high frequencies, dipping to 2 Ohm impedance at 20KHz, so you’ll need a high current amplifier that can handle the impedance dips.

You might want to look into an EL34 amp that you can get for about $1K on the used market and save $500 on aftermarket tubes. That route may net you sonic performance of gear in the multiples of thousands. I cannot stress how important the amplifier quality needs to be for the ESL57 to perform their best. But when they’re controlled properly, you may never need another pair of speakers. Congrats on your gift!