I don’t own Tannoys , now they will be no longer made in the U.K
i would never even consider buying them now ,China specials
same price point, No thanks. |
@audioman58 Which Tannoys do you own. I am smitten by my new Autograph Minis at any volume level. Very much want to demo Kensington GRs. (I’ve heard the GRF but have been told the Kensington’s are voiced closer the Minis than the GRF. |
For great new Higher end speaker Marten Oscars very good across the board and very fair priced vs the competition
and noticeably better IMO. |
Don’t tear me apart for this.
BIC venturi dv-64 pair, or the venturi dv-62 bookshelf speakers are very very good!!
They are rather fugly looking, but not too bad. I gave the dv-84 pair to my cousin, they are bright for me, he absolutely loves them.
they use very descent woofers, and vifa tweeters, they are very good sounding for the price. Nice soundstage, bass is above average, midrange on the dv84’s was a bit odd, the smaller dv-64’s sound much better. The little dv62 bookshelf’s are great!
I will suggest the dv-62LCR as a pair of great speakers. I use them in my garage, they are great little speakers, full range , great sound.
Most will call them trash, I love the dv62lcr pair, amazing with a 80W old Yamaha receiver in garage, fills whole garage,
I did tape a single layer of t-shirt over the vifa tweeter, as I don’t like bright speakers. After a few months, I removed the cloth square, and they are. Sublime. I had them in my 2nd system for a short while,
You can find great prices on these if you look.
If you can find Energy rc-10’s pair, for a good price, get them, they are soooo smoooth!,
better is the energy rc-lcr. - they are the best sounding bookshelf’s I have ever used. Still looking for a new pair for a fair price.
Martin Logan makes some wicked bookshelf speakers, so does Axiom, their prices more than doubled, but they are a top notch speaker and I’ve wanted the m80’smformamlong time, when I had the cash saved, the price was more than I could spend when the prices raised. Enjoy the hunt. |
This may be a stupid question…what cables are you using in your system? What source components?
if you’ve paired your speakers with warm sounding source component and cables that would potentially contribute to and explain what you’re experiencing. Also if your room is over treated it could also be a contributing factor. Just curious. |
Thanks everyone. I've come to the conclusion that I need higher efficiency speakers or a tone control to interface with my amp. I'll let you what I do and find out. |
Perhaps your amplifiers are not very well defined att lower volumes. You shouldn't need much power at low volume so an amplifier with a rich tone.... |
A guy with Harbeth's driven by tube gear asking for advice? Do they sound dull in the evening listening in the nearfield? Maybe too much of a good thing with tubes at low volume. Try a ss int at low volumes? |
Since loudspeakers can range from about 80db- 1 watt to 112db -1 watt, I would still say that over 100db is high eff, 89-99 med, below 88 low eff. If it's not this then the term high eff would have no meaning at all. |
Before I got the RAAL SR1a headphones low volume listening was a very big deal for me. So I tried a few things.
I learned that DAC direct to amp was not the best at low volume. I learned that very quiet electronics, such as Benchmark AHB2 amp + LA4 preamp are amazing at low volume. You are not going to get anything quieter than that, except for the new Topping pre90 preamp. With this very quiet gear my KEF LS50, Thiel CS3.7, and Audience 1+1 V3 all sounded very good at low volume. By very good I mean you can hear all the frequencies but at a lower volume. Not the case with nosier gear and DAC direct to amp (with what I tried).
If I had Harbeth I would use AHB2 on them.
Good thing is today a lot of gear is becoming very quiet such as my CODA 07x preamp and CODA #8 amp. It also sounds great at low volume. |
Nola Boxers and Contenders sound terrific at low volumes.,very engaging. |
you have 4 options-
1 an amplifier with more robust power and dynamics, e.g. a rogue audio cronus mag iii, go to seperates with a rogue audio stereo 100 or a tube preamp with powerful solid state power.
2 more efficient speakers, a slippery slope that comes with compromises, e.g. omegas, klipsch heritage.
3 subwoofer(s)
4 amp and subwoofers
its about getting cone movement, bass excursion at lower volume. it takes a more robust amp or speakers that resond better to the amp you have.
i chose option 4 including a tube preamp solid state amp. i loved the sound of my HL5+ and could not think about what i would lose to gain efficiency. |
When I began reading this thread it struck me how free of typical volume considerations I am. Since my wife of fifty years plus recently passed away I live alone in a house pretty much in the middle of my eight acre plot. Despite this my listening levels seldom exceed 87 dB on crescendos. My fully horn loaded, triamplified, 103 dB sensitivity, DIY speakers are very good at maintaining good detail, imaging and frequency balance at quite low levels.
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I think that tube amps are much better at low volumes inherently provided that the speaker doesnt present to difficult a load. The best low volume speakers I have heard are horns (compression drivers), but they arent very good in other areas which I find significantly more important. |
High efficiency is over 100db 1 watt 1-meter omega is not a high eff loudspeaker That's interesting and worth considering. What do other people think? You know, Omega speakers promote themselves as high efficiency and a good match with the LM 845ia. |
High efficiency is over 100db 1 watt 1-meter omega is not a high eff loudspeaker. no hard and fast rules or accepted definitions of what high efficiency is among speakers... omegas are certainly presented as high efficiency speakers if you are coming from a 100 db.w.m horn they are not... if you are coming from a 84 db.w.m harbeth p3 they certainly are... |
High efficiency is over 100db 1 watt 1-meter omega is not a high eff loudspeaker.
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KEF Reference 1 speakers play wonderfully low, med and at high volume levels. Pair it with the right amplifier and you will be happy.
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You probably wouldn't think it, but Vandersteen 3A Signatures are great for low volume listening. Not sure if low watts would manage, though. |
I'm taking the advice that high efficiency is the way to go for low volume listening and for my particular amp, Line Magnetic 845ia. Does anyone have an opinion on Omega speakers? I'm reading about the Super Alinco towers. Important factor - will it provide enough bass. Your thoughts? |
My Harbeth C7 sound a bit better than my Gershman Grand Avant Garde at low level volume.
However, at high volume level, Gershman sound much better.
At late night, I used to listen to C7. |
I've not read all the posts in this thread so excuse me if my question has been answered.
Can OP kindly clarify what "lower volumes" means? What are your preferred average decibel levels?
As an example in my dedicated listening room, approximately 80db is more than enough, and does not disturb my golden-eared wife who is sound asleep in our upstairs bedroom. This is volume is either with Magnepan .7's or Sonus Faber Guarneri Homage speakers and all-tube gear paired with a small REL subwoofer.
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A large horn system can be one of the best choices for low-level listening. One of the reasons that conventional designs require compensation isn't so much the fault of the human ear but of the modern loudspeaker. Horns have controlled radiation patterns and have throw since they couple transducer to air column. |
Important to note that, to the human ear, high frequencies up to about 16K Hz, balance out at about 60db while bass below 50 Hz is up near and over 100db. so a good sub with an adjustable volume control is helpful to add fullness and weight to any speaker when listening at lower volumes.....Jim |
+1 on the Loki. I had one before I got a preamp with tone controls. Very nice unit and when defeated I couldn't hear it doing anything adverse to the signal. Great product. |
Higher efficiency speakers often do sound better than low efficiency, and can do so by a wide margin. But, some lower efficiency speakers do sound pretty darn good at low volumes.
I agree that loudness controls are a huge help--yet, as stated above--they are nearly extinct. I have a preamp with tone controls. I use them about once or twice per month--typically when I want to work while listening or read. At low volumes they do not impart distortion that I can hear or that bothers me. As I tick the dial up, I don't like them or use them as much. It's nice to have a tone defeat.
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Most of my listening now is in the late evenings or early mornings, at low to moderate volumes. The good thing about that is less competition from outside noise (less outside traffic noise, no TV going in the other room, cleaner air ways, less line noise, etc etc.). Unlike some who think that Maggies don't perform well at low volume, I find quite the opposite. With some pains taking detail to speaker placement and moderate room treatment and the help of a good sub/subs - Maggies can sound incredible, even at low volumes. During my late night sessions my little Maggies provide all the subtle details, fullness, richness and engagement of a live acoustic or great vocal performance, without having the next day numb that comes with loud.
With the exception of the larger 3.7i or 20.7i, I don't think there are many speakers at any price that could satisfy me more, than my little Maggie 1.7s, for the type of listening and music I enjoy......Jim |
Thanks, Stingray26. I appreciate the effort and time you put into your response. I'll have to find out who in the North Carolina Triangle region sells KLH. I'm anxious to try them out. As I said earlier, I feel like the answer to my hifi dilemma is a high efficiency speaker (perhaps KLH or Klipsch) or a some kind of equalizer tone control, like Decware, |
At least to my ears and my system the best I’ve heard at low volumes for detail and bass definition have been my sonus faber olympica 3 |
I have not been able to hear any of the new incarnation of KLH except the one's I bought on faith, the Kendall. The KLH 5 does indeed look like a wonderful speaker and I seem to see nothing but good press about it, but I have not seen or heard them for myself. If I can find a place to go hear them I certainly will. From everything I have read, they are the best speakers that the new KLH makes, but as we know, best for what exactly? I will say that I am quite happy with the Kendalls, so if the 5 is of a similar build and design quality, it would be quite nice. Now the only question is; how does it perform at low levels?
To further qualify my appreciation of the Kendall, I have had it for close to two years and am still quite happy with it. I listen to all sorts of music from the entire history of recorded music and it does all of that just fine, as long as I keep the volumes to reasonable levels. I have experimented a lot with placement and have settled for relatively close to side and back walls (maybe 15" from back and 2 feet from sides) which emphasizes the bass quite a bit, but at the relatively low levels I'm using, it's about right. Even though they are really good for quiet bassheads (is that even possible?) that doesn't mean the low end extension is all that deep. I think they do very little below about 35Hz. Tweeters are metal dome but not harsh to me, even when I crank them up above their sweet spot. Midrange is the best of any speaker I've ever owned, and I think that is a function of being a 3-way speaker with a modern midrange design. Imaging? Again it's fine, but it's not at the level of >$10K super-imagers. I find almost anything images well if you set it up right and sit in exactly the right spot. These are probably like most other $1.5K-3K towers on imaging, good but not above its peers.
So the KLH Kendall has its limits for sure. But it shines for me at low levels. If people say the 5 does the same, I believe them. |
Hello guys,telling the poor man to buy Martin Logan’s,are you kidding,don’t kick the guy when he’s down,atleast now his system sounds good at higher levels,don’t strip him of that too. Don’t get me wrong,mls are wonderful for home theater,but music,ok,not the best advice.An easy way to address your problem is Less Loss makes a transformer winding you hook up to your speaker cables,right before they reach the speaker terminals. Your speaker cable attaches before the winding,then there’s about a foot wire on the opposite side that attaches to your speaker terminals. If I remember right,these change the sensitivity that your amps see from the speakers. The owner brought a pair over to my house,probably four years ago or so. These made my speakers able to really open up,with much lower power tube amps. It was quite impressive,and sounded beautiful. I didn’t buy them from him,but always thought I probably should have. We went from 210 watt ARC Ref monos to 60 watt Atmosphere monos,and actually they sounded more powerful. I think they were about 1100$ unboxed,or 1500$ with nice finished boxes and speaker terminals. John |
Did i mention the persona b yet? Probably, for good reason tho’ $7k for bookshelves is ug, but they can be found for nearly half that including stands and with your front end they should excell, if there’s any way you could home demo a pair?
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Thanks, yakbob. I just did a bit of reading on the ZRock and it sounds like it could be my solution. They offer a 30 day trial but with a 10% restocking fee, should I return it. Definitely worth a try. I assume they'll work fine with an integrated amp. Thanks! |
I’m surprised no one has mentioned the Decware ZRock. Seems like a more cost efficient way to low level listening than a speaker swap. |
I’ve heard many models from Line Magnetic paired with many different speakers; and I owned the big LM219 (predecessor of your 845) and tried it with some different speakers as well. The best results were always achieved with high efficiency speakers (easy to drive) like Omega, Zu, Audio Note and Tannoy. |
Thanks, Stingray26. I feel as though you're speaking to what I'm looking for. And actually, lately I'm feeling that I way overspent on my equipment for incremental improvements that are quite impressive, but again, only at rather loud volumes. Indeed, my current system music is often thrilling and impactful, but it's not what I once remember as a warm, musical, forgiving, yet articulate sound. I'm going to check them out online right now. BTW, I had my eye on another KLH, the new model 5. Did you ever compare the Kendall to the 5? |
A nice mid-fi low listening levels choice is the new(ish) KLH Kendall. They're about $1,300 USD and certainly certainly not in a class with Harbeth or most of the other things that are being suggested. But they are designed to sound good at low levels. They are respectable at moderate levels and poor at high levels due to distortion - but that's what you get for that price. The key here is that they really seem to be designed for low volume listening, and they are 3-way so the highs and lows get a little more devotion than they do in 2-way models.
I had been looking for speakers that sound good at low levels for many years and was seriously considering Klipshcorn, Belle Klipsch or JBL S4700 because I had heard them at low levels and was really impressed. Of course those all cost a lot more, and those can also play really really loud. Then I ran across the reincarnated KLH and on specs alone decided the Kendall model was worth a gamble. I think they are great at low volumes! Of course they don't do loud very well, because they aren't designed for that. But at low volumes, which is what I am always looking for, they are wonderful! They do not have the flexibility to be house shakers and stay clean sounding, but if low levels are the primary objective, they are a steal in my opinion.
To me a speaker that you don't have to turn up to enjoy is a great speaker. I wish the "reference level" of most home equipment was lower, but of course it's mostly determined by comparison to live performances and that's usually pretty loud.
Incidentally, I think the KLH Kendall is a fabulous budget classical music speaker. It is also great for Techno Dance if you want it to be really really quiet - but who wants to do that? |
Almost all earlier hi-fi gear included a Fletcher-Munson "Loudness Control" designed to boost the bass and treble to compensate for their loss at lower volumes. Harry Pearson via TAS made tone controls as well as (heaven forbid) the loudness control dirty words (if you were a real audiophile, that is.) So without an equalizer, you are going to miss bass and extreme high end .... goes with the territory. Mid-range clarity, however, can still exists. I have a pair of older KLH 5 speakers in my bedroom system that sound marvelous at low levels, with midrange that equals my main system Thiels.
Reading the above threads, I see a lot of people confusing power with loudness. A low-efficiency speaker, properly powered, can still play "low" without losing anything .... no more than a high efficiency speaker. |
In my experience Nola / Alon speakers excell at low volumes.
The designer has clearly paid a lot of attention to how they sound at minimum volume. It was quite incredible how the tonal balance never changed as you cranked the volume.
However due to the limitations of open baffle design they had limited power handling in larger rooms, meaning i blew many drive units.
My current Focal Stella Utopias are the polar opposite. They really don't come alive until you give them a good kick up the arse. However their power handling is superb, they have no problems filling the same room that murdered two pairs of (Alon) open baffle speakers.
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@smatsui
please describe the differences you hear between harbeth shl5+ and stirling ls3/6 -- and pls let us know what amp, source and music type
and which version/iteration of the super hl5 plus pls
thanks |
I have the Klipsch Cornwall IVs and they have a full body sound at low levels. I've owned Harbeth SLH5 and currently own the M40.1. I also have the Sterling LS3/6 that I like better than the SLH5. For low level sound, it's hard to beat the Cornwalls. |
So many opinions. Little speakers that sound good at low volume are efficient and that like tubes. Humm sounds like ProAc Tablettes too me |
here is another +1 for ESS rebuilt Quad ESL 57's; at low volume evening listening levels they bathe you in sound...... (and Townshend super tweeters with 57's open up spatial presentation and a little more of everything) |
Props to OP for a great topic that matters a lot in some systems but isn’t often talked about.
1st off, I have to agree with @yogiboy -- I get the best sound IMS with true acoustic suspension speakers in my nearfield/desktop system which crosses over to a good sub @70 Hz. Of the 2 sets that rock my world & sound very good at low volumes, one is a vintage unicorn while the other is a current model:
-- ATC SCM12 Pro passive monitors: the ATCs sound essentially the same at low volume as a higher volumes. That same very present, dynamic midrange and good bass are distinctly audible even with very low volume classical music
-- KEF 103.2 passive 2-way: these big vintage speakers sound very good (nuanced, detailed but not at all bright, with real punch in the mid-bass) at any volume. They’re not designed for nearfield but excel in that application. They rock like crazy at higher volumes, but even at low volumes, it’s all there.
PS: Both pairs are low efficiency (~84 dB/1 meter) & sound best with lots of power--so there goes the theory about high efficiency speakers sounding good at low volumes. |
C’mon, nothing sounds better than a Martin Logan Summit, Ethos, Spire at low volume levels. Crystal clear mids and highs, respectable bass. What more do you want? 26 tube watts will drive all of these speakers to satisfactory levels, especially at low listening levels. There is no better buy, especially on the used market. $3k for used Ethos? You can’t top that musical excellence in a box speaker. Fogetaboutit! |
Just to add my two cents, some of it repeating what was said above, I think a sub can help with low level listening, it adds body and little umph to make things pop like they should.
I have also found that treating the room with a mixture of absorption and diffusion can improve listening at all sound levels, but especially at low levels. I thought my Pranafidelity monitors were much better at high levels until I added some ceiling diffusion (in addition to other treatments) and now I listen regularly at 4 - 5 dB lower levels on a routine basis.
Finally, the best low-level speakers I have experience with are the Audio Physic Steps SLEs (not the newer models which are very different) and the Totem Element Fires. Both have full-range drivers (no cross-over) with a supplemental tweeter. The Totems have much better bass and are easier to set-up than the Steps but the Steps, properly set-up, image like no other (at least from what I've heard). |
High efficiency speakers, which also have a flat and higher impedance. A number of these will be a wide band single driver design. The tricky part is that there are very very few smaller size high efficiency/high flat impedance speakers made. To achieve efficiency, physics demands some size. However with some careful consideration, certain tradeoffs allow for smaller size AND high efficiency. The main trade off will be volume and scale potential. Small high efficient speakers won't do big and loud well but will beat all others at sounding good softly.
I see no mention of Omega Speaker Systems. I recommend taking a look and a listen. Another very unique brand pretty much unknown in the US is Contrast from Ukraine. They made high efficiency high impedance crossoverless small speakers mainly using a driver of their own design and production. Those are more expensive than Omega and a bit harder to find but are exactly the sort of thing you're after. |
Interesting idea, buddyboy1! At a couple of hundred dollars it's definitely worth a try.
On the other hand, higher efficiency speakers are probably the way to go at the end of the day. Yes, I wish I could afford the Devore's. What say you audiogoners about the Klipsch Cornwall IV? Not cheap, but half the price of the Devores and they're rated at 102 db.
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As a general rule, a high efficiency speaker. Over 95DB. |
Devore Orangutan o/96 powered with 8 watts tubes are perfect for very low level listening. I tend to agree that high efficiency speakers is the way to reach your goal.
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