Reference 3A line updated

It would be interesting to hear the difference between the Mundorf and Cast cap. Would also be interested in hearing your impressions of silver wire. Keep us posted Irish65. On a further note I really don't note any sort of "shouting" effect with the Beryllium tweeter at all. Just a bit of forwardness at times in the upper mids that maybe shouldn't be there. Then again these speakers are in no way laid back which again some are going to love and some not. To me they give the presentation a greater immediacy and sense of liveness. The Decapos CAN offer a more "laid back" presentation if it's on the recording. Most characteristically laid back speakers over time give me a sense that all the music is presented in that manner and it's not. The ideal speaker TO ME is going to tell exactly what is going on with the recording. In that manner the DeCapos are just superb, they REALLY do that as I am discovering going through recordings that are very familiar. Accuracy and neutrality are tricky words when describing a loudspeaker since ultimately none of them are completely either which is further compounded by the choices preceeding them. Its part of what makes this hobby so challenging and enjoyable, trying to find the pieces and putting them in the system to see what happens. I have been quite surprised at times expecting one thing and getting a result completely unexpected.

I haven't had the TSMs for quite a while, although they are very fine monitors, but I wanted to try a SET amp. Currently I have a pair of Coincident Triumph UHS Revised which are also very nice monitors and work verywell with my modded Bottlehead Paramount 300B's.

I went from Maggies to Triangles to Focals to de Capo's. The Focals were the most dry and neutral, almost like listening to paper. The Maggies had incredible presence and presentation; the Triangles were gorgeous and warm; but the de Capo's were warm, forward, and in control.

I'll go to floorstanders eventually, but I'll be loathe to give up my de Capo monitors - especially as I have the beautiful red finish.

At the moment I am in the process of building an external xover for the deCapo's. I am replacing the Silver /oil Mundorf cap with a Cast CU Duelund. The resister is being replaced with a Duelund Cast silver resister. The internal wiring will also be replaced with custom silver ribbon wire.

From the tests I've conducted, with the small gauge copper wire in the deCapo, the silver improves the overall sonics of the speaker. Mainly in the bass as the copper seems slow and fat compared to the tautness and speed of the silver.

With the Mundorf cap the tweeter has more energy in the upper treble, that is why most desighers use them, and to me I could not get pass this. The speaker wasn’t balanced and on some recordings in the upper register it almost seemed that with the extra energy on top it was shouting.

I agree with the above characteristics of the deCapo. The drivers are integrated well and the crossover is on the + side of the tweeter.

I am listening to the soft dome tweeter and not the beryllium.

Seas builds a driver in the Excel series that uses Nextel. I have bought these drivers and it has the texture of suede. Interesting that Rwef 3a is offering this a a finish.

I am waiting on a shipment from Parts Connexion and will report back when I have completed the project. I have taken some photos but with A’gon’s new format it is difficult to get members email to send photos.

Tubegroover and Drubin, Thanks!

Based on what I hear, I can't fathom anyone thinking the deCapos are dry or analytical. This has to be some serious system mismatching.

It surprises me how well the deCapos hold up by comparison with the Maggies. No, the Be tweeter doesn't have the magic of the Maggie ribbon, but it is very good. Sins of omission, not commission. They won't play as loud as the Maggies without a bit of congestion, but for my needs, that is not an issue. I'm not going to be listening to a Beethoven sonata at 90 dB as I fade into sleep.

The deCapos have perked my interest in the 3A line. I think I could easily live with this sound in my HT system. To bad they don't make a center channel.

Great back-and-forth, you two. We should remember that, to some extent, one man's neutral is another man's too lean.

Brownsfan all I can say is I would really love to hear your main system particularly with your musical taste. What a great reference to build a second system, very nice indeed!

Tubegrover, Take a look at my system page. Until I get the rest of my bedroom system together, when I listen to the deCapos they are in my main system, switching out the 3.7Rs. The system is dead neutral with the Maggies in. When you rotate in the deCapos, the tonal balance shifts to just a bit warm of neutral.

Well maybe a bit warm but it wouldn't be an adjective I would use in my set-up. To me they are in the "Goldilocks" zone particularly with the Berning amp which seems to compliment them so well, an honest, dynamic, fast, wide bandwidth design that neither adds or substracts the signal they are fed and seems an ideal electrical match with the DeCapo at the low feedback setting, a pre-requisite for purchasing the speakers. It is the only amplifier I have heard them with to date. It is precisely in the mid/upper bass that I am hearing some serious magic that was frustratingly lacking with the VSM. I can certainly imagine a warmer presentation depending on components, particularly amplifier, and cabling. I would be interested in knowing what you are using with yours Brownsfan. I've even read that they sounded "analytical" ane even "clinical" which would REALLY make me wonder the conditions for those conclusions.

Thank you, Brownsfan.

Dubrin, Since you addressed your question to Tubegroover I refrained from posting until he had answered. He answered well, and I agree with what he said. I would underscore a couple of things. The drivers are extremely well integrated. Also, there is indeed no etching in the upper registers. Where they deviate from neutral, in general, the deviation is euphonic in nature, not offensive. I would characterize them as being a bit on the warm side. I bought these speakers to use in a bedroom system where I will use them primarily to listen to solo piano and chamber music. I will appreciate the warmth there, I think.

It has been about 30 years since I bought my last monitors. This was a very good purchase!

Thank you, Tubegrrover, terrific response to my question.

When I owned an earlier generation of the DeCapo i a few years ago, I eventually found them too forward for my tastes. (There's a huge upside to having basically no crossover, but there has to be some penalty, right?) Sounds like they may have improved in that regard but perhaps not 100%. I will try to have a listen at a local dealer.

Hi Guppy, are you considering replacing your TSM's?

Hi Drubin

Well I would't say they are as smooth as some I've heard, particularly upper midrange and it is only noticable to me on SOME recordings. Say the ideal speaker, at least to me that would be smooth and most natural would be the Quad ESL. I have a friend with a pair of 2905 and you can clearly hear that at times the Decapo may have a tendency to maybe exaggerate or push forward the sound a bit. It isn't consistent and it doesn't bother me but it does deviate from what I would consider a very neutral speaker. Even with regards to my previous speaker, the Merlin VSM this can be heard. The Merlin is a bit smoother across the board. I would like to measure this in room to see what is going on. This is just such a minor thing and less a nit than it might be for others. The speaker just does so many other things that I DO like that I DON'T hear from other monitors. A matter of taste for sure. They so naturally produce tone and timbre without sounding either pinched, slow, lean or etchy at any frequency, great integration of the mid/bass driver with the BE tweeter. The mid/upper bass on this speaker is both very fast and well resolved which melds with the rest of the frequency range. Most small monitors sound either overly rich, bloated, MIA and/or missing the speed and articulation of this one. The VSM while also very fast is by comparison lean sounding in this area, at least with my Berning amp which on the Decapo is rich and totally convincing. The lower registers on the piano with the Berning amp is SO much more convincing in adding the weight, accurate pitch and harmonic overtones and decay heard on the instrument. The speed and believability factor is quite a big deal. I have a hard time believing it possible from a speaker this size in that the scale and dynamics are also retained.

So while the speakers aren't perfect Dan, they will be convincing to some and less so to others. I was comparing to a few other small monitors over the past 6 months including the Audience 2+2, Gershman Acoustics X2 and Gallo Stratus and to my ears across the board they were hands down my favorite. But then again I fell in love with them within the first minute of listening, they just sounded more right to me than any of the others although for coherency and imaging the Audience is about the best I've personally heard from ANY box speaker, a very special design but lacking the total package for may taste and they are quite inefficient. The Gallos were also very good in the areas of coherence, transparency and imaging but tonally they didn't get it right and I quickly became bored listening to them. The Gershmans are very sweet in the mids and upper frequencies, missing some of the transparency of the others with zero low bass and a mid/upper bass that was too plump and colored for my taste. The bottom line is that the Decapos will appeal to some more than others but if I were to use the term "neutrality" in describing the performance of a loudspeaker the Quad would come closer to fitting the bill, particularly in the midrange, they just get it the rightest :) Hope this helps clarify a bit more my tastes, and biases.

Tubegroover, in what way or ways do you find them not completely neutral?

Hello Tubegroover, I hope all is well with you. As far as the acoustic lens Tash told me you can request it in black instead of white, which I agree would look much better.

Enjoy Brownsfan! They certainly have been a most enjoyable discovery to me. I am using them in my one and only system in a 18X20X10' room open to a 8X12X10' space. The real joy with these speakers Brownsfan is that they can be played at low volume and retain everything on the recording. In addition they can play really large with lifelike images and soundstaging on some recordings that defy explanation, wall to wall yet can focus like a laser on placement of instruments and individual vocalists in a large ensemble, much like I hear live. I suppose what I really enjoy most and what I immediately liked on first listen is that while not completely neutral they present a compelling natural tonality and capture the most subtle inflections of vocalists and musicians. Bottom line is that I am rediscovering all my music with a greater focus on performance over sound which is a big deal to me.

Brownsfan,
So glad to hear you like yours, too!

tubegroover, I bought a pair of deCapo Be's a few months ago to use in a bedroom system. I'm very slowly putting the pieces together for that system, but in the interim, they occasionally get rotated in to my living room system. My experience is substantially consistent with yours. They are just amazing monitors. Not the most neutral speakers I have ever heard, but they do so much right! Really remarkable.

I purchased a pair of the latest back in August after a 3 week audition and have commented on other threads of my early impressions. Actually the finish is very neutral and doesn't bring attention to itself. What is more interesting is that there isn't more emphasis on what really sticks out like a sore thumb, the white acoustic lens, why not grey or black so it is less noticable?

In any case these speakers have set a benchmark for me in what one can expect from a monitor speaker at their price and way above. I listen to all genres of music. The gestalt of an orchestra, the intimacy of a solo singer, the joy of a solo piano performance, try Murray Perahia's "The Aldenburgh Recital" List Hungarian Rhaposodie #12. These speakers are just so convincingly musical, dynamic, resolving and just "right" sounding. Don't be put off by the "ugly" unless beautiful wood veeners are your Raison d'être for ownership, they're much deeper than their looks. I haven't heard any of the previous models. Maybe Tash might consider some color other than white for the acoustic lens?

I asked them the specs and approx cost for Sema but I got no reply.

BTW, is it possible to change the older capo's capacitors to mundorf capacitors?

will there be a significant improvement?

Okay, new, beryllium tweeters have been installed in my De Capo's! The slightest bit tricky in a couple of ways so that I called to get advice. But really not very difficult at all as long as you can handle a soldering iron enough to attach the new tweeters. Only had the briefest few minutes to listen to them after installing them. They sounded great, but I will put off posting about the change until after they've had some time to settle in. I think that Reference 3A puts something like 75 hours on all their drivers so that they can more accurately match them in pairs. Presumably, then, these tweeters have had that much time on them, and given that the rest of the speaker, including the main driver, is already very well broken in, it shouldn't take all that long I would think for things to settle down. Impressions coming soon.

Aprica88: They may not yet have an MSRP for the Sema... I don't know if it's in production yet. But generally speaking they offer free shipping, a small discount, and a 3 week in home evaluation period to customers who don't have a local dealer. Also, if you decide to move up the line within 3 months, they'll give you full price paid toward a your new model.

If you email reference 3a website they will tell you

Does anyone here knows how much is the msrp for Ref 3a SEMA

Thanks Rebbi

New, beryllium tweeters arrived via FedEx today! I will be posting once I've had a chance to install them.

you were quite helpfull already

You have been very helpfull already..thanks

Gosh I don't remember. It was 2.5 years ago. Sorry I can't be more helpful.

How much did the Manley Mahi's run used??

Nyaudio,
A pair of Manley Mahi's in triode mode... 20 watts/channel. More than enough power for the De Capo's. The Mahi's will also run in ultralinear mode at 40 watts/channel. You gain some slam in the bottom end, but lose some of that midrange magic.

I am looking forward to hearing your impressions.

Shakey

Rebbi..what r u using to power the del capo's

Hi,

Well, I got word a couple of days ago that my new, Beryllium tweeters for my De Capo iA's have shipped! I'll report back when I've installed them.

need an update on the new and improved line

Yeah, Scott was kind of wishy-washy on the sound in the Ref 3A room, and I have to agree that the cosmetics of the Nextel finish aren't as nice as the veneers. Still, I'd like to hear the new line for myself.

Wow, this looks exiting. I have a pair of GV's powered with either the AQ1006's or Hurricanes'. They are awesome in every respect. With an asking price of around 5 - 4.5K used, they are the deal of some proportion! The new lineup looks fantastic. If they out perform the GV's... it will be beyond words, maybe I could paint a picture to relay my thoughts;)

I just bought a pair of PMC FB1i's for a smaller second system for some reason, I have always wanted a pair of PMC's; it may have been a mistake. In a word they are quite good for what they are, though expensive. Compared to the GV's they lack badly. Should have picked up the Episode!

That doesn't really seem to be very positive. I am pretty sure I read in another show report (TAVES maybe?) that the "B" version of the GV still had the Murata. Maybe that was a mistake. I'm glad I got in before the change.

Shakey

Here's a report by Scott Hull of parttimeaudiophile.com on the Ref 3A room at THE Show in Las Vegas.

Apparently, the BE tweeter was added to the line because the Murata super tweeter from the Grand Veena and Episode is no longer made. Interesting read.

Glad you feel the same way Rebbi. Yesterday I was listening to Yehudi Menuin and Ravi Shankar on an album calles East Meets West. Shankar's sitar reverberated through the room and Menuin's violin sounded like it was right next to my right ear. Absolutely marvelous. Can't wait to hear how your upgrade goes. May follow your lead if it goes well and easily done.

Catama,
On a very different note (no pun intended) I was listening to my De Capo's a couple of nights ago and had Sade's "Promise" on the turntable. It was glorious.. I'd never experienced such a sense of a coherent performance on that album. Very special.

I scored a mint condition set of the Beethoven piano concertos on Columbia Odyssey records with Glenn Gould at the piano and Leonard Bernstein/Leopold Stowkowski conducting various orchestras. Through the de capos these records sound magnificent. The de capos do piano extremely well. They are also very good with acoustic music and jazz. Just can't say enough good things about them.

Just heard from Ref 3A that it'll be a few weeks before the tweeters can be shipped because their tweeter supplier is behind schedule and they Ref 3A needs to get new speaker stock to their distributors first. So, good things come to those who wait. Good folks, though; I've no doubt they'll come through ASAP.

Break in seems to be key with Reference 3a speakers. I have only put around 150 hours on mine. They were reported to only have ~30 hours on them previously. I still don't think they are fully broken in and continue to get better every time I listen.

Shakey

Catama,
I think I am. Just need to remove the old tweeters and solder in the new ones. Ref 3A even provides the solder. I'll report back on how hard or trivial a job it is.
I know what you mean about the De Capo's. I'm regularly struck by how they keep getting better as they continue to break in.

Thanks for letting me know, Rebbi. I'm still in love with my de capos. Listening to them now as a matter of fact. Eager to hear your report on the upgrade. Are you going to do the work yourself?

They cut me a bit of a deal because my speakers are so new – I bought them only a couple of months before the new line came out. Let's just say "very reasonable" and "you could easily spend more on a fancy power cord." :-)

For the heck of it, why not give them a call and see?

Rebbi,

I am curious to hear what you think about the Be tweeter. I can't imagine my GVs sounding better, but I like to keep an open mind.

BTW, how much for the upgrade?

Shakey

Agisthos:
I'd really like to see that new finish in person. When my De Capo's have the new tweets, they'll be up to current spec except for the Nextel finish.