Sellers: When do you drop your price?

FYI, Tarun on A British Audiophile has now given the Atoll a "highly recommended." https://youtu.be/yI1aKWbxxpE

When I’ve got no offers at listing price for two weeks. 

-You are making way too many assumptions.
" The fact that my relative bought it, stole it, built it - irrelevant if I don’t know the source."
-Now you are saying:
" S/he worked hard knowing full well someone would inherit it, and would want me to benefit, hence I WAS THE BENEFICIARY on his will, inheriting"
So, which is is? You really don't have an argument to ignore. Other then maybe some taxes, the inheritance is free to you or did you work for it?

@dill, @sokogear,
seriously???
I wrote extensively about the nature of the inheritance, I listed examples, I explained that inheritance is not free, someone paid for it, etc. .It would not only be stupid but immoral to give it away to the person I inherited from. S/he worked hard knowing full well someone would inherit it, and would want me to benefit, hence I WAS THE BENEFICIARY on his will, inheriting. By your logic.... wait.... you have no logic. Are you really this ignorant to not read my responses? .We are now at 3rd grade level. I think you just don't want to understand. Please judge me however you want, I am done explaining. We are going in circles and you are ignoring my arguments. 

@dill - that was my point, but you said it a lot more directly and clearly than I did....his compass makes no sense to me, but he said it's on a case by case basis, so I guess he shoots from the hip.

gano said: "If I inherit a piece of let’s say [furniture], I would look up the going price and put it on craigslist."

So, using your "moral compass" as a guide, why don't you just give the piece away instead of selling it for money on Craigslist?

@audioguy85  My unit was listed for 7 days at a price which was likely too high. Hours after I dropped the price it sold. In 8 days, I didn't get that much grayer, though I admit watching it sit there felt longer than it actually was! 

The other debate about selling and profit is one I'm comfortable to watch from the sidelines. It is a fairly deep topic, since it would encompass not just the sale of an audio device but any resources a person possesses. What do we owe each other, is the fundamental question at issue. There is a wide range of philosophical and spiritual belief systems meant to deal with this issue, and once some general principles are accepted, minor examples like selling gear or furniture are easily handled. Working back toward those general principles using small examples is (in my view) a wild goose chase.

I have sold on here, if you want to wait until you are old and gray for it to sell then do so....too many nit- pickies...otherwise, sell on Ebay. Also be advised you WILL receive a 1099 from the government for your sale on here and elsewhere if paid via PayPal. 

@sokogear
you are asking hypotheticals but the original sale I disagreed with has nothing to do with those hypotheticals. I don’t see any place I contradicted myself. I would do in any situation what I think is fair and there are endless types of situations. I have a moral compass that tells me what’s fair, so calling any outcome a contradiction is an oxymoron.
If I inherit a piece of let’s say [furniture], I would look up the going price and put it on craigslist. The fact that my relative bought it, stole it, built it - irrelevant if I don’t know the source. I will do what I feel is fair based on my knowledge of the situation. If that same piece of furniture was sold to me by neighbor for x, that will be a different set of parameters determining fair price. You can argue that fair price in your view is formula x, and that’s your approach and that’s fine. For me the balance of the Universe depends on my formula, and there is nothing else to it.

@gano - it’s nice that you support your mother and are charitable. The inheritance could come from your father’s side. Someone maybe you didn’t know existed. That has nothing to do with the subject at hand. The question is whether @hilde45 could make profit off of a sale on Audiogon.

You contradict yourself saying you would do what is fair and let’s you sleep at night. Sounds like you might make money off of an inherited piece selling it for what you consider is fair, which I guess would be based on what they typically sell for.

Hilde - you did good and it sounds like you had a fair, market based, mutually beneficial transaction with everybody being happy. Congratulations- you should have absolutely no second thoughts about making $75.

@ hilde45 good link thank you! Fascinating points. 

@sokogear
if let's say I found something on the street, that I would be sure no one is looking for, I would sell it for fair used price and I would try to use the money in ways that would benefit others, take a friend out to lunch, leave a big tip, save the dolphins, whatever. 
If it's an inheritance, I can't find any hook to your logic that "I got it for free". The person I inherited it from paid for it or someone he inherited it from paid for it, why would I give it away? Unless it's an uncle I never knew about, I work very hard for my inheritance, so I deserve to benefit for it. I.e. I support my mother financially and in every aspect and my contribution to her well being way exceeded what I will ever inherit. If my neighbor gives me his old speaker, and I don't need it anymore, I will ask him if he wants it back, if he doesn't, I will sell it on craigslist and tell him about it and split it fairly with him. I don't have a rule for everything, it's how I feel it would be fair and let me sleep well.  

Of course you pay a retailer more.....it's retail! Even if discounted. He stands behind the product and will help resolve any issues at a minimum. Hopefully he adds value conveying his expertise on the options available and tips on using the component. He has to work with the manufacturer and pay to inventory the goods. And the stores I buy from are owned by individuals (not Best Buy, etc.), so they are dudes too. I didn't mention Marx or Friedman.

I hate to say it @gano, but if you sell something to a "dude", even the Big Lebowski, it is still a transaction. Also you didn't answer my question about what you would charge if you inherited a nice component that you weren't going to use. Would you give it away since you paid nothing? Or if you had to pay inheritance tax on it, would you charge that? Of course not. So whatever price you agreed to below market is charity. If it is a friend, of course you cut them slack (or maybe give it to him for free), but I am talking about arms lengths transactions, regardless of "dude" ness.

@gano  You might be interested in this thread: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/if-i-have-good-local-shops-available-should-i-restrict-my-pur...

sokogear:  Thanks for your thoughts.  You might review my post higher up on the thread, where I use the example of finding a bargain at an estate sale and flipping for profit to make a point very similar to the one you've just made.  I suspect us of being in heated agreement!

@ jdoris
interesting point. With audiogear I think of dealers as people too, to some extent - vs as a business. And when I look at ads from private sellers, I always think of if and how I am willing to pay more to a dealer, like +15% or so because it's not their hobby but their source of income. It must be a tough business and must be hard to find the right model. Whichever way I look at it, we are humans who care about each other, it must not always be about transactions and profit

@ sokogear
I am not confusing anything. You are dragging "business" and corporations and employers into this. They work based on the forces of the market and the regulations imposed by the government. It is just about a dude and you, both buying and selling used gear or exchanging fixing your car for a helping him with his son's resume, stuff between regular people. Let's not bring Marx and Friedman into this. I quoted catholic values. But they are just "values" - my values

@jdoris - selling gear you don't want any more is not turning pro if you happen to make a few bucks. What if you inherited the gear and decided you didn't need it and wanted to sell it? Should you give it away?

2 equally motivated (or unequally motivated) people reaching an agreement is called creating a market. Audiogon is a marketplace. Being a good consumer and seller is knowing the market.

gano, although I spoke on the other side, I totally hear you.
hilde's 75 bucks is neither here nor there, but  the extent to which one thinks of one's hobby and fellow hobbyists  in terms of profit is something worth thinking about.
No disrespect to dealers here: we're all in their debt. But the cost of "turning pro" in anything, from carpentry to poetry, underscores the point.

Sorry @hilde45 - I just assumed by your alias that you were female. You know what happens when you ASSUME....

I wonder if there are any women on this site. Anyone out there? Bueller....anyone....

@gano - you are confusing honesty with charity ....receiving incorrect change and returning it is honest (although it would be interesting to see what % of people would return it. I bet it would depend on who gave you the extra change, a small businessman or a huge corporation that is publicly held).

Making a profit is not dishonest - leaving money on the table in a business deal is charitable. If you work for someone else, they are paying you for your time and you are taking their money. Do you think that is dishonest? Would you work if they weren't paying you what you consider a market rate? What if you thought you were worth more? Would you look for a different job? We're not talking communism/socialism here. This site is for commerce, not charity.

@hilde45
yes, thank you for the details, and the full picture. As I said there is no right and wrong as it's such a complex issue.

For those who made fun of me: this is exactly what I experienced during my attempted sale, I am not surprised.

You found it at a good price (passing along the savings later), took all the risk with little info and tested it out for more than a few months, further helping to ensure the next buyer would have a nice component. And passed along some savings for the person to not have to buy new, from one Agon'er to another. I'd pay someone $75 just to test a component for me for two months for added assurance nothing is breaking down inside. That Atoll was a nice dual-mono integrated, not easy to find 2nd hand used either. Call it a finders fee too.   Good for both parties.  


  

And just to be absolutely clear about what a non-genius I am, after fees, additional shipping I paid (to expedite to the buyer and make sure it was professionally double-boxed), I probably cleared $75. If I had priced it at what I bought it, I would have lost about $102. This is all marginal, piddly amounts. There are zero issues here. Cheers everyone. "Enjoy the music." Good advice, thanks.

Who is this man that made a profit on used gear? I want to be in his presence and absorb some of that aura. Enjoy the music

Can we make sure the flogger is none other than Mr. Gano..... 

You made a profit on a sale? Shame on you! You should be taken down to the village square and publicly flogged! 
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=CkIh4DXS&id=9279F0FE9F269BE6CE0CD0A166...=

Thank you for the explanation, gano. Someone with enough money bought my amplifier. Would it help you to know that I contribute more than the difference in price to charitable causes? Such as food banks and homeless organizations? I would say that from an ethical perspective, the money is doing much more good than it could for an audiophile. 
I still think the reasons about a fair and honest exchange are sufficient, but since you raised the ethical dimension, I addressed it. 

@hilde45
I guess it's twofold but the short version is Karma.
I was raised with catholic values and I am an anti-salesmen. I was taught to please and make others feel good and my own prosperity cannot come at the expense of others'. This was in Eastern Europe that had vastly different values than the US. If I get 5 bucks extra from the cashier in the store by mistake, and I notice it when I get home, I cannot rest until I take it back. I feel that we cannot expect to be treated fairly unless we treat our neighbors fairly. That includes not to tip the balance of personal financial transactions, and not profiting at the expense of others. Maybe it sounds stupid and idealistic or even wasteful and generous as some people swap goods to buy groceries. Luckily I haven't had to find and make good deals just to pay the bills.
A good example was my last attempt to sell a pair of speakers here: I would definitely not want to be treated the way I was by audiogon members and I couldn't treat sellers like that.

@gano  I’m interested in the reasoning behind your moral opinion. Please elaborate and let’s discuss. I’d like to know what’s behind your statement. I teach ethics and am interested. 

No, actually, this is a thread that you would have been better off not contributing to at all. Use some discretion, as it really doesn't deserve or ask for your personal views.

it's my opinion and my moral approach to not sell something for more than I paid for it to a private party. All I said was that I disagree. Anyone can disagree with me, as well, it's called a discussion

Agree agree. Not to get too detailed about it, but I'm a he. Last time I checked. ;-)

As long as she was honest about the condition, age, how many owners, how long she had it, etc., who cares if she made money on it or thought she could make money on it when she originally bought it?

she’s filling a market need. And taking a risk. What if she couldn’t get what she thought she could? 

And would it be so awful if hilde saw a great deal and did in fact purchase to resell at a profit and the new owner feels they got a great piece at a great price...

Something is worth by definition what someone is willing to pay at some point in time in some place by non urgent buyers. The more efficient the market, the quicker and more consistently the price will be very repeatable regardless of buyer and seller. I.e the stock market (assuming everyone has the same information).
Estate sales when being sold to the public “as is” “no minimums” are not efficient; there are urgent sellers. When real estate is sold with no contingency, the price is lower as the seller is motivated to move quickly.

Sounds like Hilde got a good deal when she bought and a market deal when she sold. Econ 101.

Bravo. Good for you. What you pay for something has no bearing on it's worth today. eBay has a great free option in left column 'Sold' and 'Completed Listings'. I don't sell much equipment but I do sell alot of vinyl. It's surprising sometimes. Some titles are worth next to nothing and some have appreciated nicely. It's econ class all over again.
1) Supply and demand
2) Condition, condition, condition
In real estate it's location, location, location but S & D is first then always C, C, C. Original to the item add ons (original packing box, owners manual, remote etc.) are always added factors. Personally, if those things are missing, I'll keep looking. They contribute to the condition of the item. Might be superfluous to others but it shows respect to the item as well as the buyer. Understand shipping boxes take room to store (my attic is full of them). All the above (well most) responses are good. Alas, I'm beating a dead (sold) horse. 

Way to break out the Latin rhetoric, hilde!  :)

Congratulations on completing the sale. There is absolutely nothing wrong with asking for and getting more out of an item than what you paid for it. The thought process of gano that you should always lose money on gear is bizarre. If both parties are happy, then no harm is done. IME, it is rare to make money on this stuff, so enjoy it when it happens.

Yes, I agree with the last two comments. I am not a gear swapper and am not dishonest. I am not a profit seeker in this hobby. And even if I was, if there is no coercion or dishonesty, buyers have their freedom to do what they like. Many times on this forum, people have defended the right of buyers to spend whatever they like on equipment and for merchants to charge what the market will bear. $100k speakers? No moral argument against that as long as everyone is on the level. The fact that a sale takes place between hobbyists makes no difference at all.

FWIW, my wife recently bought a table at a thrift store for $100. She’s now seen it on multiple auction sites for $3500. By my critic’s logic, she should sell it for $100. If that’s not a reductio ad absurdum I don’t know what is.

dill +1
Good for you hilde, you moved the gear quickly, and can claim some vindication regards those who hammered you a bit on the initial price.
I've never made money selling gear, and never tried, but it's hard to see how this could be morally objectionable, if there is no misrepresentation:
Suppose I buy a pristine [your favorite big $ piece here] for 10% of retail at an estate sale; I've not harmed anyone by re-selling it for 11% of retail -- on the contrary, looks like I've helped them.

I do find the people who set out to make money whenever they swap out gear a bit odd  -- again, not my MO for my hobby -- but if they play by the rules, what's the beef?

You did nothing wrong. You completed a sale, something that is done millions of times on this planet everyday. You had a good product at a good price and a buyer that agreed, that is what it is all about, a business deal. You exchanged an item of value for an amount of money, that both of you agreed on. gano is just being judgmental, hard to believe he has never sold something for more than he paid for it.

@gano  you’ve never gotten a bargain? No one was forced to do anything they didn’t want to do. On what ethical grounds are you making an argument, if there is an argument there at all?
Others, am I bound to set my price based on what I paid? Did I do wrong, here? To me this is a ludicrous claim, but maybe I’m missing something. 

" Wow someone else’s loss is your gain,"

Why do you think the buyer suffered a loss?

you bought it for 1100 and sold it for 1300? Wow
someone else's loss is your gain, I couldn't disagree more with that approach. 

Yea, well but no. The item that the OP sold was listed and sold on AudioMart, not on AudiogoN.

That’s MC’s specialty. Very rough grade, but useful.

Thank you. I really think the advice about dropping the price helped. I saw those comments piling up, re-did some research and found a price more in the ballpark, and one that I would pay for this amp. I appreciate the reality checks I get here, even though they sometimes come with a side dish of sandpaper.

Congrats!

Minus the 10% paid to us for talking it up, you clear $1170! Pretty good!

Good for you, congratulations!