Hi,
I am a simple home hobbiest. I've built an great sounding full range single speaker set (so no cross-over,, and that's the point. I don't want a x-over).
But of course it lacks terribly in bass. Is it possible (is it commonly done?) to add a woofer into the cabinet with no cross-over (again, simple straight wire to amp). Would it require wiring in parallel or series?
Currently each speaker has one TangBand W8-1808 full range 8" driver and sounds very good.
Thanks in advance, I really would like to know if this is possible (safe?) to do.
Rob
Totally agree. Thank you. What I am hearing in my test with single drive is really good. So good it triggered me to go up the ladder to a better more expensive driver, and it did get better. Single driver may not be for everyone, it does have its short comings, but what it does do sounds really wide and alive (to me). It just lacks in the lower regions, and that is to be expected. That is my, in home, listening experience.
@boomerbillone
I may contact you, maybe a simple schematic? I’m not very electronics savvy (that’s why I initially wanted to try a single crossover-less speaker,, blame the covid lockdown resllesnes LOL). What you subjected is exactly the info/advice I was looking for.... and thank you all for your insite. It has been very enlightening and entertaining.
@pindac I couldn't agree with you more. I also chuckled when I read the assertion that "most of them [single driver speakers] don't sound very good once the listener gets past the honeymoon phase." It's amusing how audiophiles love to make such dogmatic statements without any firsthand experience with the subject at hand.
I have gone through my fair share of speakers at various price points, design and topologies, brands, etc. in the last 20 or so years. Every speaker I owned had strengths and weaknesses. There is no one speaker out there that is optimized for everything. All design choices have tradeoffs. I have now owned German Physiks Unicorn II speakers for over 6 months. These are single driver and omni-directional and are just about the best speakers I've owned ... ever. There is absolutely no lack of dynamics, soundstage, treble, bass reproduction, and transparency. I sold my pair of REL S/510 and, then later, another pair of Wilson Benesch Torus subwoofers. The bass produced by my speakers is more than enough to compensate for a lack of subs. This should tell you something!
Another aspect of single driver speakers is how your ears get attuned to a lack of crossover. There is a continuity and flow in the music that one can only appreciate after living with a single driver speaker for some time. It's as close to the real thing as it gets.
I hope people can move on from the misinformation regarding single driver speakers and try to own one and live with them before peddling generalizations.
Listening to single driver speakers at audio shows in recent years, the most memorable experiences have been Songer Audio and HHR Exotic. Not sure of the current status of HHR, but Dale's all-out interpretation of a Walsh driver is a high mark.
@tcutter please explain your point.. are you saying 2W/3W/4W/5W speakers are more accurate? agree on that, but 1W still has some advantages, such as x-over circuit impact on phase, damping factor etc..
My understanding is that the magic of an FRSD is due to direct coupling to the amplifier, thereby avoiding a crossover. A 2.5 way speaker that has a directly coupled midrange accomplishes the same goal but without the limitations of poorly matched and cobbled-together subwoofers and tweeters seemingly needed to extend the system’s range beyond it’s useable frequencies. If the single driver can reproduce all the frequencies to which one cares to listen, then your work is done. I just see a lot of these speakers that are supplemented by additional drivers, which begs the question as to whether or not they are full range, at least to some people.
Along these lines, it may be that a multidriver system using an active crossover with amplifiers directly coupled to each driver may be the sweetest sound of all. The B&W Nautilus comes to mind.
What I am hearing in my test with single drive is really good. So good it triggered me to go up the ladder to a better more expensive driver, and it did get better. Single driver may not be for everyone, it does have its short comings, but what it does do sounds really wide and alive (to me). It just lacks in the lower regions, and that is to be expected. That is my, in home, listening experience.
@tunehead As long as you don't play a 'full range driver' too loud they can sound quite good.
There are two problems. The first and most obvious is bass. If there's bass excursion on the driver (meaning you are playing at a slightly higher volume) the motion of the cone to do the bass causes Doppler Effect distortion, which is readily audible as congestion.
This is why they work best at either low volume or with material that has no bass.
The second problem is beaminess, where the extreme highs can't be heard unless you are in a very specific location ('head in a vise').
So to get the most out of the driver, you'll want some form of crossover. Doing a crossover for the tweeter isn't a big deal so long as you are careful to roll off the 'full range' driver so there's no comb effect filtering interacting with the tweeter.
The bass is a different problem. If you want the most out of the driver you'll use a subwoofer (possibly powered) and then have something to roll off the bass going to the 'full range' driver. Many people like to use these drivers with SETs since they are often fairly efficient. If you do this, the best place to roll off the bass is before the amplifier so it doesn't have to make bass, which is arguably the weakest aspect of SETs since it causes them to make a lot of distortion (and they can't do full power in the bottom octave either).
But even if you have a PP amplifier, you might want to roll off the bass going into it anyway, since most 'full range' drivers don't handle much power. Bass is where the power is.
By doing this way you still get the coupling between amp and speaker that is part of the 'immediacy' that so many people describe using drivers like this with no crossover.
So if you are getting the most out of the driver, it will essentially be in a 3-way setup rather than full range with no crossover.
I will add once more the statement made in an earlier Post.
A Transmission Line design for the Cabinet will produce a improved structure to the Bass presence.
A TL is also able to substantially reduce residual Bass energy where the Bass generated is more ESL Speaker than Cabinet Speaker.
The Tunnel when designed correctly has the capability to absorb Bass Radiation preventing Upper Bass frequencies transferring into the Midrange and Upper frequencies, resulting in the masking these frequencies presence.
The Tunnel also has an impact where the Tunnel increases the extension of the Bass frequency, where it can mimic Bass produced from a Driver with a substantially increased surface area.
FWIW, I recently learned about a Speaker Builder who's work I been able to experience in use across many years, where I have been thoroughly impressed and Inspired, is now a using a main Speaker that is a Transmission Line produced by a Company known for their DIY TL Designs.
Interestingly as well, the same individual prior to this most recent TL Speaker was using a 10" version of Single Driver TL Design that I am now using as a 12" Single Driver TL Design. These Speakers were built by a very successful Cottage Industry Speaker Company, who's support with other areas of design, is carried out by an individual who freelances and has been the producer of Speaker Designs for a few Companies with a Global Wide exposure in the Speaker Market.
I am struggling to find fault with the 12" TL Design I am using, and auditions of these in use to others, has enabled them to win further favour from those who are new to them in use, especially when being driven by a 5 Watt Output SE 300B Amp.
I can only explain how experiences had, have created a positive impression on myself, and if possible, share where experiences had by others of the same set up, have also been a reported on as being positive as the outcome.
Closest thing that I think might satisfy is a JBL D130a 15" speaker from the '60's. It features a concentric aluminum dome mid-range that also extends to give acceptable treble out to about 13,000hz. There is no crossover (except mechanical) at all. Of course you have to build or buy a cabinet custom made for the large speaker. You might want to compromise.....JBL also made a 12" version but I can't remember its model number. B
Thanks Ralph for pointing out to doppler effect, which definitely will cause phase mods of higher frequency by low frequency program, specially if spkr membrane moves significantly! For single instrument, like acoustic guitar, that may be natural!
A JBL D130 and 130A were two different speakers. The D130 had the aluminum dome and the 130A didn't. The voice coil material (copper vs aluminum) and baskets were also different (130A is deeper) and they are not compatible unless you want a Frankenwoofer.
The 12" version was the D131 or the D120F. A D131 will have a tighter voice coil gap than a D120F.
There were also 10" and 8" versions with aluminum domes
I would say there is zero chance a single driver speaker can out perform a quality 3 way. See @atmasphere post above.
If you're ever in the Dallas area, you're welcome to drop by. After owning Joseph Audio, Sonus Faber, large Harbeths, Focals, Magnepans, Bowers and Wilkins, and many other 2-way and 3-way speakers, all I can say is that my German Physiks Unicorn II outperform all of them in pretty much all departments, including bass. I sold my subs after getting these. Never say never :)
@ronbocoI'm not sure I would say "zero chance", because a) folks who exclusively listen to acoustic music at sensible volumes may be well served by single-drivers, and b) as @arafiq says, some single-drivers are said to outperform 3-way speakers. Lowther and Voxativ also come to mind, though tbh I've never auditioned either of them.
I think my 4-way, 7-driver speakers and 800wpc-into-2-ohm amps are a better match for my disreputable musical tastes and unsafe SPL choices, but all the same I'd love to audition a really good low-watt, single-driver combo.
My tastes in music are quite wide as well and I definitely feel a single driver wouldn’t work for me. Very curious what 4 way 7 driver speakers you have. My amp will hit 750 wpc at 2ohms.
Thanks! They sound fantastic, too. I originally bought them to tide me over while I mulled over "real" speakers, but little by little I feel in love with them and now I’m hooked.
At this point I feel no pressing need to "upgrade", and if I do it’s only going to be to Infinity IRS Beta. Or maybe Thiel CS 5i (I'd definitely need an amp upgrade with the Thiels 🙂)
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