Along these lines, it may be that a multidriver system using an active crossover with amplifiers directly coupled to each driver may be the sweetest sound of all. The B&W Nautilus comes to mind.
Single driver full range speakers
Hi,
I am a simple home hobbiest. I've built an great sounding full range single speaker set (so no cross-over,, and that's the point. I don't want a x-over).
But of course it lacks terribly in bass. Is it possible (is it commonly done?) to add a woofer into the cabinet with no cross-over (again, simple straight wire to amp). Would it require wiring in parallel or series?
Currently each speaker has one TangBand W8-1808 full range 8" driver and sounds very good.
Thanks in advance, I really would like to know if this is possible (safe?) to do.
Rob
60 responses Add your response
My understanding is that the magic of an FRSD is due to direct coupling to the amplifier, thereby avoiding a crossover. A 2.5 way speaker that has a directly coupled midrange accomplishes the same goal but without the limitations of poorly matched and cobbled-together subwoofers and tweeters seemingly needed to extend the system’s range beyond it’s useable frequencies. If the single driver can reproduce all the frequencies to which one cares to listen, then your work is done. I just see a lot of these speakers that are supplemented by additional drivers, which begs the question as to whether or not they are full range, at least to some people.
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Headphones, even though suggested as a Jest, the idea an individual has been able to experience all models since the 00's is a real challenge. Speaker Types referenced in this thread have a History extending back to the 50's when they were in their Heyday. I am able to listen to Tannoy Dual Concentrics from the 60's when a friend chooses to put them to use in place of their Quad 57's. |
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@pindac I couldn't agree with you more. I also chuckled when I read the assertion that "most of them [single driver speakers] don't sound very good once the listener gets past the honeymoon phase." It's amusing how audiophiles love to make such dogmatic statements without any firsthand experience with the subject at hand. I have gone through my fair share of speakers at various price points, design and topologies, brands, etc. in the last 20 or so years. Every speaker I owned had strengths and weaknesses. There is no one speaker out there that is optimized for everything. All design choices have tradeoffs. I have now owned German Physiks Unicorn II speakers for over 6 months. These are single driver and omni-directional and are just about the best speakers I've owned ... ever. There is absolutely no lack of dynamics, soundstage, treble, bass reproduction, and transparency. I sold my pair of REL S/510 and, then later, another pair of Wilson Benesch Torus subwoofers. The bass produced by my speakers is more than enough to compensate for a lack of subs. This should tell you something! Another aspect of single driver speakers is how your ears get attuned to a lack of crossover. There is a continuity and flow in the music that one can only appreciate after living with a single driver speaker for some time. It's as close to the real thing as it gets. I hope people can move on from the misinformation regarding single driver speakers and try to own one and live with them before peddling generalizations. |
Totally agree. Thank you. What I am hearing in my test with single drive is really good. So good it triggered me to go up the ladder to a better more expensive driver, and it did get better. Single driver may not be for everyone, it does have its short comings, but what it does do sounds really wide and alive (to me). It just lacks in the lower regions, and that is to be expected. That is my, in home, listening experience. @boomerbillone |
" most of them don’t sound very good once the listener gets past the honeymoon phase " As I stated, " Any individual is limited in what is able to be experienced and only able to encounter what is a very very small proportion of the entirety of single driver speakers. " As always my post was to pass on an improved information to somebody who may be looking in on the thread or discover the Thread at another time. Can't be having such individuals being given information that is substantially askew with incorrect content.
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No One Person has been able to hear in use most of the Single Driver Speaker Designs that are in use either from a Commercial or DIY Build background?? For an individual to suggest most Single Driver Speaker don't sound very good is a fantastical statement made without a solid foundation, as a result of their exposure having very very limited experiences. At best most of the ones heard by an individual, especially an individual who expresses a negative content as their evaluation. Might have been exposed to an End Sound that to them did not sounded very good, if that is an experience had, then I am not to argue. Any individual is limited in what is able to be experienced and only able to encounter what is a very very small proportion of the entirety of single driver speakers.
I would strongly suggest such a statement is bordering on worthless. |
@tcutter - it is full range driver, low freq. can be extended by cabinet design, there are many fostex DIY solutions available.
fostex has many drivers for 1 way speakers, price typ reflects how accurate it is: https://www.fostex.jp/en/speaker-unit/
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Hello tunehead! Here's a suggestion for your "adding a woofer" problem. Wherever you extra woofer is located, you only want the lower frequencies to go to it, right? So, place it in series with your existing speaker and put a large (100 - 300 mfd) capacitor in parallel with the extra woofer. I suggest you get hold of six or eight 50 mfd/200volt capacitors and put them across the new woofers terminals one by one until you find the combination that works best. No need to use expensive units at this point. Trail and error will help you refine the value of that capacitor you'll need. If the new woofer is in a cabinet already, no problem. the ground (black, negative) terminal of the new woofer goes to the amp's negative output terminal. Your existing speaker's negative wire now goes to the positive (red, +) terminal of the new speaker. The highs go thru the capacitor and the lows get left behind to move the cone of the new woofer. It will look messy for a while, but an afternood of fun will let you know what value of capacitor you need. Buy a good one, Mundorf KPR or better. The load on the amp will actually be easier than before. The final location of the new woofer will make a big difference. Contact me if I haven't explained it well enough. Enjoy the music.
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Check out this tech blog on Subwoofer Integration - Take Your Stereo to the Next Level |
Because most of them don’t sound very good once the listener gets past the honeymoon phase. That and most of them are severely limited in dynamic range.
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I am a user of ESL Speakers, Floor Standing 3 x Driver Ported Cabinet Speakers and a Single Full Range Driver Transmission Line Design for the Cabinet. The Floor Standing 3 x Driver Ported Cabinet Speakers, in comparison are the most coloured out of the selection, but compared to other Speakers sharing similar Cabinet Design, these are quite uncoloured as the comparison outcome, and are many many steps closer to what the ESL can create, than other Ported Cabinet experienced designs used in the home system have been capable of. Ported Cabinet Designs seemingly need substantial Cabinet Structures to tame the energies that effect the End Sound produced. The owned Ported Speakers requires 2 x People to handle, where risk of injury or damaging a Speaker is best managed. Designs of Speaker and Sensitivity of Speaker will limit partnering devices to drive them. My Speakers range between 83dB - 106dB which is woefully inefficient to uber efficient. The 83dB speakers are not usually receiving more than 20 Watts Power from an Amp, which is to change as a 60 Watt SS Amp' is loaned and awaiting its use. The TL's are 106dB Speakers and receiving 5 Watts as the lowest. I have not got a prejudice or bias against any of the End Sounds that are being produced. The Link between 8 minutes - 12 minutes might offer a description that helps explain why such differences to designs are able to create a Parity Impression, when End Sound is being evaluated. |
If you have a "full range" speaker. Look at the specification sheet the for that woofer. If it states the range 20hz to 20khz it is full range. A speaker would still be decent at 32hz to 20khz in the right cabinet because it could roll off slowly to near 20 hz and still be supurb. The cabinet for the speaker would need to go off manufacturer parameters for the speakers specifications in order to deliver that full range. You would need to know something about building a robust cabinet for that size. Then experiment with padding inside to Taylor the sound you want. Your ears will tell you. If you are technical, you can measure the frequency range. You can get terminal kits from parts express or other sources. |
I like the idea of an active crossover. With one in place, you could always add a third speaker set, something smaller for a tweeter? If you wanted to bi-amp or tri-amp. Below is the link to the one I’ve always wanted to try. 100% analog. Also, you can buy new frequency X/O cards for $12 bucks apiece, so lots of experimentation for little added cost.
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I know Louis at Omega Speakers used to make a full range tower with an integrated powered sub at the bottom. I heard they were great. I personally use full range speakers, but almost always with a separate powered sub. You can use a powered sub's phase control to really dial it in and integrate it properly. |
Several folks have recommended adding a sub, and that’s a proven way to add bass. For several years I used a Martin Logan Dynamo with my 6.5-inch FR diy speakers. But a few months ago I built a Nelson Pass -designed EQ module designed for FR speakers, plugged it in and I no longer use the sub. Go to diyAudio store.com and look for it. As I recall, Pass even posted a few customizations for particular drivers. It’s an easy project and surprisingly effective. Cheers. |
Hi OP I have encountered the same question to me by another audiophile friend, as some have posted above, the speaker I was asked my opinion was a Reference 3A De Cappo driven by JELabs 300B. those are a wonderful match but lacking lower bass power to the owner. IMHO, I thought the bass was good enough. but everyone hears differently and have their personal wants therefore, after months to trying different things, he ended up with an external powered sub(s). nothing can be done any better. in your case, you can try different enclosures in your BASS drivers. BUT again, in IMHO, using external powered subs, you can Taylor the power output and the crossover. MY last idea is to build a woofer enclosure, power it up with Class D amps and use a DSP (ex MiniDSP) to custom tailor the frequency match to your open baffle speakers
good luck |
I tried a single driver speaker and while it sounded great at lower volumes it just didn't do it for me after a while. I admit I fell in love with their presentation of vocals and imaging, they struggled with rock at even modest listening levels. I used them for about a year and I'm glad I tried a single driver speaker but in the end I was missing the sparkle and air a tweeter brings to the party so I sold them and bought a sealed acoustic suspension 2 way. Never looked back. |
"Full range single driver" (FRSD) is often an oxymoron. Because there is no crossover, the midrange and a few octaves on either side might be the best you ever heard, but they are lacking at the extremes, necessitating a subwoofer, supertweeter or both. Many times these are simply cobbled together and levels, timbre, phase, etc., are often mismatched. An exception would be German Physiks and a few others that do employ only one driver and achieve phenomenal extension. Most do not. Wilson Benesch uses a 2.5 way design that direct-couples their midrange driver to the amp. This 7 inch driver’s frequency response is approximately <100Hz - >5KHz, which some might regard as full range or close to it, practically speaking. They then use acoustic or first order crossovers to mate this driver with their proprietary tweeter and woofers to yield 30Hz to 30KHz. While a subwoofer will be needed to get to 20Hz, the seamless integration of their "FRSD" with their impeccably designed, constructed and matched high and low ends yields what I think many are trying to achieve, which is a lucid midrange with transparent extension to the extremes. |
I really like full-range speakers with lightweight and additional whizzer cones, but they lack the deep bass we are used to from “standard” speakers. There are back loaded horn designs that improve the bass somewhat, but they usually cause other problems. I have been working on this topic for almost 50 years and have tried and listened to many drivers and designs. In the end, I developed a completely different approach. A: The driver must have an electromagnet and B: There must also be a large diaphragm for the low frequencies. Perhaps the effort involved is too great for some, but listening to music with the Wolf von Langa London really gets under your skin and gives you boundless pleasure! At least take a look at the speaker; in the US, Colin King (Gestalt.Audio) may be able to arrange for you to listen to it. https://fieldcoilloudspeakers.com |
absolutely is done. My Ref3A DeCapo I speakers are two way and use no crossover, just a high pass cap on the tweeter. the trick is to find a woofer that rolls off as a good match to where the tweeter begins to come in. You could also make an effort to time-align woofer and tweeter if you are a diy builder. |
It is not easy to manufacture a single driver speaker to properly address the unique demands and challenges inherent in this topology. Prior to German Physiks, I tried Omega and Ohm at home. I listened to Liisong and MBL in my friends' systems. With the exception of MBL, the other ones had several shortcomings that I just couldn't see myself living with in the long term. German Physiks Unicorn changed my mind about single driver speakers though. Not only is it the best single driver speaker that I've owned, it is THE best speaker that I have owned to date regardless of design or price point. |
I bought a pair of German Physiks Unicorn II speakers a few months ago. They are the ugliest best sounding speakers I've eve owned, and I've owned quite a few. The omni-directional DDD driver is something to behold. The bass reproduction is fantastic, so much so that I sold my pair of Wilson Benesch Torus subs as well as REL S/10. This is the closes I've come to a live event. |
Ok. You name stuff however you like. You can call red, blue if you like, https://www.lowtherloudspeakers.com Take a minute and scan over their site. Company has been around for 90 years Look at what they call their drivers.
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A Transmission Line design for the Cabinet will produce a improved structure to the Bass presence. A TL is also able to substantially reduce residual Bass energy where the Bass generated is more ESLSpeaker than Cabinet Speaker. Has your Speaker design been measured to see where it is rolled off. Bass may be present as needed but without the Colouration that some individuals need to experience. |
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My neighbour runs wide-bands over Ripol subs. Originally he had the same Tang-Bands. They are very nice! Good choice. He moved on to Lii Songs. And then, as in this picture to Lowthers. Now he has EMSpeaker electromagnets. I always loved the Tang Bands myself though. PS: seems no pictures allowed here that are not url-based. Anyway, can provide more info somehow separately if wanted. |
So I took some time and looked up the thieves small parameters for your driver. https://www.parts-express.com/Tang-Band-W8-1808-8-Neodymium-Full-Range-Driver-264-894?quantity=1 Based on those values the efficiency bandwidth product comes our to 69.696969697 http://www.calculatoredge.com/new/bandwidth.htm So that pretty much freedom of choice between a sealed or ported enclosure. There are a lot of tricks to come up with the Qts and -3db point you're looking (hoping) for. I didn't see your design specs so if this helps, good for you. If it isn't helpful, my apologies and best wishes best wishes! |
Thank you all. You've made me feel/realize I am getting as much as can be expected out of these DIY speakers. I really do love their soundstage and presence. I do have dual subs as noted and they mate beautifully. I was just wondering if I'm missing anything as I'm relatively new to single driver magic. @total111 Thanks, I'll take a look at the the Tocaro speakers you mentioned. Thanks all again. |
There are too many technical considerations and variables for a positive recommendation to modify your existing single driver speaker cabinets to accommodate a separate woofer without a crossover. While I recognize you built the existing speakers yourself, you need to consider the following before proceeding:
Alternatively, I recommend adding a modern powered subwoofer(s) in parallel, without using an active crossover with your speakers, rather using the filters most subwoofers have to roll in gently at the frequency you desire. You can time align with judicious placement and set volume and roll in to be coherent with the single driver. Also, modern multi driver speakers with crossovers are much improved, and are as coherent as single driver speakers, extending lower than most single drivers. I recommend auditioning some newer designs that will give you the bass response you are looking for.
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@OP. The drive unit in question not only has a rapidly falling frequency response below 150hz, but it has a strongly rising response above 1.5k - and a ragged one that's typical of whizzer cone "full range" drive units. The latter will exacerbate the sense that the speaker has no bass. The problem with adding a bass unit is that you will have to match sensitivity as well as frequency response. That will be nigh on impossible to do without using a crossover. So you would be better using a sub. At a philosophical level you will still be able to view your speaker as having no crossover - since that will be in the sub. |
A couple of things to consider: Adding a driver will affect the impedance loading on the amplifier, increasing or decreasing depending if wired in series or parallel. The published (or expected) frequency response of a speaker is different than the in room response. A speaker's in room low end is often ten or fifteen dB higher than published specs taken in test chamber. So even if there was a way, realistically how much of a benefit would it be. You could try a passive radiator or a down-firing port but that takes as much design horsepower as crossovers since you have to take the effect of the cabinet on the full range driver's performance. Or, you can try a simple first order inductor. |
