Speakers The single most critical component

@dtetch2 Can you please repeat that in English.

It is easy to understand that any relatively good piece of gear can be replaced by any other relatively better piece of gear, be it a dac or amplifier or speakers...

And this replacement is called an upgrade...

It is easy to understand that if any piece of gear can be replaced by any other, psychoacoustic law, vibrations/resonance controls, noise floor control, are not piece of gear waiting for improvement but question that must be adressed...

Then the most important for most of us is not the source or the speakers urge to upgrade, it is the psychoacoutical necessary  control of the room, of the electrical grid of the house and of the  vibrations plaguing speakers...

There is NO miraculous component.... Only relatively better one for most of us.... But the general rule in my experience  is that any upgrade is lesser increase in S.Q. than controls of the room most of the times if not always...

The only exception perhaps is to change 500 bucks speakers for example to a 15,000 bucks pair.... And even this is not always true....

My 50 vintage bucks speakers sound like SOME not so good 15,000 bucks one thanks to my room control....

I dont need any upgrade why?

Am i deaf?

No...

I studied elementary acoustic....

Try it....


Then perpetual arguing about branded name gear is deceptive and never adress the essential....

Embeddings controls, especially acoustic....

pesky_wabbit330 posts04-27-2021 3:33pm@dtetch2 Can you please repeat that in English.

You and others are presenting critical information, but it is falling on deaf ears. There is no acknowledgement of it let along a rebuttal.


To that end, there is information being presented, but no communication is occurring. Communication requires two active participants.

Transducer Tunnel Vision is deaf!  ;) 

You and others are presenting critical information, but it is falling on deaf ears. There is no acknowledgement of it let along a rebuttal.


To that end, there is information being presented, but no communication is occurring. Communication requires two active participants.

Thank you. I appreciate your elucidation.

@dletch2 --

You and others are presenting critical information, but it is falling on deaf ears. There is no acknowledgement of it let along a rebuttal.


To that end, there is information being presented, but no communication is occurring. Communication requires two active participants.

I'd even go a bit further with that statement: audiophilia in general is in love with its own narrative, and not at all inviting of "other voices." Backlash is one thing, muteness quite another..

For a lot of them, mute would greatly increase the accuracy.

For a lot of them, mute would greatly increase the accuracy.

If only they knew how to sort them. 

For a lot of them, mute would greatly increase the accuracy

Again,  I am hard pressed to understand exactly what you mean.

For a lot of them, mute would greatly increase the accuracy.

If only they knew how to sort them.

Totally bizarre. Are.we in the same universe?

@pesky_wabbit --

"For a lot of them, mute would greatly increase the accuracy."

My interpretation: for a lot of the "other voices," meeting them with silence would more accurately reveal their insignificance. 

"If only they knew how to sort them."

My intention: if only audiophilia possessed the ability to assess which of those "other voices" needed to be addressed (i.e.: shown interest) or not. 

Wow! Too much acid,.,,,,,,,,
https://youtu.be/uUvvpGKyZ5I

And while we‘re on the temporary subject the of Pineapples from the Dawn of Time. a totally tongue in cheek ode to Charlie Manson.

https://youtu.be/0YGGuFUWuk
 Music always trumps gear

I feel like I’m watching a breakdown in slow motion. I’m worried about mozartfan. Sure audiophiles are an eccentric lot. Sure they have strong opinions. But he seems to have crashed through the guardrails. Should Audiogon do something? Call the cops, call somebody?

I’m not too sure about the room accoustics guy, either. He’s at least scraping up against the side of the guardrails.

I’m surprised that otherwise sane members of this forum would take mozartfan seriously after he admitted that he hadn’t heard the speakers in question.

I read the review in Absolute Sound. It was positive but they’re all positive. It was very positive, actually. But it wasn’t a rave, the reviewer didn’t write like he had discovered cold fusion.

I’m not too sure about the room accoustics guy, either. He’s at least scraping up against the side of the guardrails.

Dont insult me please...

The room "acoustic guy" like you said NEVER spoke or RAVE about ANY audio consumers products here...

I created my own devices...

And acoustic and psychoacoustic had what we called " laws"...Nobody can ignore these laws...

Thats all...

If i speak POLITELY about my experience and i sell nothing save creativity and simple facts that means certainly that "i dont scrape up against the guardrails"

It is NOT your case insulting me...

is it clear?

Speak TO ME directly next time....Not about me to others....

And dont assimilate me to anything you judged being a "nutcase".... i dont trust your judgement seeing it at work in this post....

I’m sorry. My tongue was firmly planted in my cheek as I wrote that. I wasn’t seriously questioning you or the laws of physics. Although, without ever seeing it, I have to wonder what an interior decorator would say about your room. 

Although, without ever seeing it, I have to wonder what an interior decorator would say about your room.

you are not here to judge my room...

It is not a living room it is an audio room first...

Second i created my passive treatment homemade and my active controls myself at no cost...

Then spare me another insult under the guise of an apology...

I dont insult people here.... It seems you do it on a regular basis...Third insults in three posts...

You proved to everyone here what you are ....

Enjoy it.....without me...

Goodbye.....

I’m surprised that otherwise sane members of this forum would take mozartfan seriously 

I don‘t really. just took the bait.....

There’s no getting past the transducer/s that produce the sound.
The loudspeaker is where the rubber hits the road, I would agree that to have a truly immersive sound, the speakers come first.

The rest of the equipment, even the room, and the recording aught to compliment the speakers. Of course without synergy it all collapses, I do think however that the device turning the AC current into audible bliss is the foundation upon which the rest of the system relies, and the qualities it voices.

A guy reads a single review and claims an apocalypse on any other type of speakers. WOW I‘m amazed. ’Too much acid’ again comes to mind.

I do think however that the device turning the AC current into audible bliss is the foundation

what about the device turning music into AC current in the first place?

I do think however that the device turning the AC current into audible bliss is the foundation upon which the rest of the system relies, and the qualities it voices.

Affirming a common sense fact does not erase another common sense fact...Ordering the 2 facts ask only for some logical reasoning...


It is relatively easy to find relatively good speakers...( relatively to your purse but this does not invalidate my point at all).

Then without negating the impact of the choice of speakers, my point was to indicate a deep underestimated fact: psychoacoustic phenomena...

Like you just said it is important to adapt the room to the speakers... If not, the speakers will never give their optimal S.Q.

(Anyway at the speed of sound the waves crossed my room many times before my brain analyse all this, i listen in a small room to the multiples reflected frontwaves even in near listening...)

Give me any good speakers i could make it sound great....i know howto do it now at no cost...

Take any good speaker put it in a bad room... listen...This will seems "good" only because people will have no idea at all the way they would have sound in a good room...

Then it is easy to buy relatively good speakers but the most important piece of the job is acoustic...

The only reason people dont understand that is simple.... They never lived through it.... I did...Like i said passive material treatment is only half of the job, we need also unbeknownst to most active mechanical room controls...Especially if our speakers are not very costly one in more costly acoustic room.... active acoustic controls may cost peanuts it is the good news ...It cost me peanuts...

There is no comparison at all between a pair of speaker in a good room compared to the same pair in a bad room....Even the increase in S.Q. by an upgrade will not do the job most of the times save if you go over the roof in price perhaps...Most people think that imaging, timbre perception, soundstage are ONLY attributes of the gear, but they are only partially right, most of these factors depend heavily on room controls not only on passive materials treatment...

A simple example...Why most very rich audiophiles invest more in the room sometimes than in the gear, mike lavigne for example ? do they think that their speakers are so great they can put them in an ordinary room?


By the way i installed springs under and over my speakers with my own method... This give a big difference in S.Q. But this difference is very small compared to the huge transformation of the room....It is the same thing for the decresing of the electrical noise floor...It is an audible difference when we decrese the noise floor but this does not compared to the room acoustic either.... For sure none  of these changes is replaceable by the others but the more impactful audibly is the room controls on ALL aspect of sound in a more than audible way....Transformative completely....

If i did not insist on that who will?

My deepest salutations to you my friend....

And appropriate respect for sure....

It is relatively easy to find relatively good speakers...

Amen

talk about resist changes, 
WOW,
I will not continue  down the xover design any longer,
40 years of xovers is quite enough for this audiophile.
You can have em. 
Take all you want the listings are loaded. 

I dont think it is the listings that are "loaded". 

@mozartfan --

talk about resist changes,
WOW,
I will not continue down the xover design any longer,
40 years of xovers is quite enough for this audiophile.
You can have em.

I suppose you refer to passive cross-overs first and foremost, and (if so) on that we agree. Instead of going totally sans XO though I’m using one actively (DSP), implemented prior to amplification and with one XO-point on the main speakers only - in the more or less critical band (just above 600Hz), that is; a XO-point is also placed below 100Hz for subs augmentation.

Debate arises over where the lesser harmful XO-point(s) should be placed, but in a 2-way main speaker design that can be dictated by factors that wouldn’t consider the most optimal XO-point as an outset. Using non-waveguide loaded dome tweeters necessitates a XO typically not much lower than 2kHz, whereas acoustic transformers can lower that point considerable with dome tweeters, AMT units and compression drivers alike (with the latter offering the lowest extension), and hereby give way to experimentation - in conjunction with other design considerations - on where to most optimally place the XO-point.

To me the very important "power region" (~150 to 600Hz) should be left untarnished - that is, sans XO-point here - and be reproduced with ample radiation area. One or two high efficiency paper coned 15" drivers here, not least actively driven, simply smothers anything lower eff. typical 8" or smaller alternative with a more unforced, dynamic and naturally full presentation here. They won’t extend clear of the central midrange though, but that mayn’t be an issue with a large horn to cover from 6-700Hz on up, offering qualities here - also in regard to directivity control - that direct radiating, smaller coned drivers wouldn’t be able to replicate.

Resisting changes mayn’t be a bad thing, not least in light of what has gone before that position and shaped it into what it is, but it can also be a rigid stance that limits oneself from further exploration. I’ve expelled myself from much of typical hifi and wouldn’t dream of changing that with what I know now. One the other hand, if spacing and economy had allowed I’d have cherished seeking out a secondary set-up with a smaller pair of passively driven 2-way speakers (or even XO-less widebander) and a good integrated amp and source - and just that with no subs or anything other. Simple, clean - like it all started..

position and shaped it into what it is, but it can also be a rigid stance that limits oneself from further exploration.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Stubborness is my middle name.
I’m from the old early days of audiophile comos.
xover low eff was The Speaker, nothing else existed.
I am cking our FR as of a  few months ago, 

Now that i have ACTUALLY listened to a high , well 91db Diatone, efficiency, now i can say xover low efficiency is not my cup of tea.
I have completely shoved off the table the traditional xover designs.
Also have shoved completely off the table Voxativ designs, as the US dealers are *Not Avaliable* for ordering. 

= AFAIC,
Vox does not even exist.
I’m going 10 inch wide band/compression horn and its a done deal.
Last and final train ride on the speaker merry-go-round.
Ricahrd Gray has shared a stoey of one client that had these 83 db speakers and made the ~~fateful~~ decision to adda SET Atmosphere 2.8 watt amp.
Blew the SET’s like 2 or 3x’s. as the Atmos dealer told the buyer <<oh yeah sure our Atomos can drive the 83 db speaker, BY ALL MEANS**, after 3rd blow, the owner called Atmnos,,<<well what we mean, is not play too loud>> ^%^$#@#&*(^&%%%$%

I’m going in the opposite direction,. Pairing a 100 pure watt per channel with a 97 db wide band.
Massive waste of wattage,
but it is
what it will be.

btw, the 8 wide band 94db just arrived, tested w/o cabinet vs the Diatone 91db w cabinet
the  8 94db  reduced  the Diatone 6.5 91db  to ~~Wet Blanket~~ status,
Things are really starting to click now with this sensitivyty thing.
The higher the sens the superior the imaging.
So the Diatone 91  smashed the seas Thor 87 db to Wet Blanket status, 
The 8 94 db sens, smashed the diatone 6.5 91 db to Wet Blanket Status.
Now what do you think a  10  98db goning to do to the 8 94db sens???
Anyone?
Well I'll tell you what the 10 / 98db  will do to the 8/ 94db, 
Going to smash it to 
Wet Blanket speaker. 
This is how this db sens game works. 

I'm guessing 98db is about as high as i figure i want to go in this deal.
I'm quite surea  Field Coil will blow away the 98 db 10, for sure. But at $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$,
Is  it worth it? 
I have few recordings in my collection that would justify speading  that kind of cash on a  speaker.
The 10/98 db  will put my sound near the Mt Everest  peaks. Had I not invested the $1800 in the Thor upgrade, I'd be  there by now. 

Oh wow, you have actually listened to a pair of FR drivers. Congratulations. Please keep your diatribe within 100 words.

@op 

Have to disagree that the speaker is the most important. The room is the most important followed by system synergy. Every part of the system is important. The speaker can have the biggest impact from a sonic signature standpoint, but that doesn't make it the most important. Whats important about a speaker in my mind is the it has the kind of sonic signature that is pleasing to the listener and that it is a good match for the room it is being placed in. 

I am a big fan of full range drivers and have built many of them. They have their place, and sound amazing to my ears when matched with the right amplifier and music. They have their limitations however. And I think your logic around how much better a larger FR driver will sound, is flawed. As they get bigger, they have a greater difficulty with transients and sibilants. Go bigger than 8", and it becomes a factor. 6 1/2" seems to be a sweet spot for bass response (pending driver and cabinet design) while maintaining nice high frequencies.

Now, a 10", 12" or 15" coax is a different story. But, then you are dealing with a crossover...

If no one said it, the speaker is the only item in the reproduction chain which effects the pattern of sound dispersion in the room.  For those of us who like eg omnis, bipoles, dipoles, open baffle, and wide dispersion boxes, these differences are more significant than one can achieve by changes in other components.

Yes room treatments affect this also.

Have to disagree that the speaker is the most important. The room is the most important followed by system synergy.

I am glad to be with another audiophile with common sense....

Almost no existing design with the usual technology could nullify or exceed the acoustic control of the room...

Someone not knowing that is the victim of marketing hypnosis or delude itself with a product which is related to what most people called their "taste"...Speakers design is always TRADE_OFF not a miracle cures of all problem...

By the way a natural sounding instrument timbre is a fact not a "taste" ....Imaging and listener envelopment are acoustical factors not "taste"....

Yes room treatments affect this also.

Any speaker need room acoustic control to reach his peak working possibility.... And no passive material treatment can do it only by itself in a room under 20 feet....Sorry....

Reverberation time is useful if we know how to use it with the timing of early and late reflections using also ACTIVE mechanical control to adapt the speakers limitations and ENHANCE them with the room controls (Helmholtz resonators grid).....

Ignoring acoustic put you in the arm of speakers publicity designers market....

Give me any speaker for a small room  i will adapt the room to it and he will sound next to a very costlier speakers...

@berner99  

Agree that the speakers have the biggest effect on the signature of the sound - ESL's, horns, Full Rangers, Omnis, open baffle etc. I just feel like the signature is a taste and preference thing. Once someone settles on a style of speaker, there are ranges of quality within that style. And then matching gear is needed in order to get the synergy right and get the most out of the speakers.

Splitting hairs I guess, but when a direction has been established, then all equipment is of equal importance. If I want to change up the sound, the source remains the same, but amplification changes with the choice of speakers I'm listening to.

If I want to change up the sound, the source remains the same, but amplification changes with the choice of speakers I’m listening to.

Same thing than for amplifier and speakers ,it is very easy to buy a "relatively good source" nowadays...

Creating passive material treatment for a room and especially active mechanical controls to complement and enhance it is way more difficult...

People are hypnotized by pricing gear product, less so by acoustic and psychoacoustic fact....

Under 20 feet room space only acoustic matter to reach heaven with almost any " relatively good for basic gear "...

Why 20 feet?

Because it is easy to control TIMING under some acoustic treshold and use it for your benefit...

A very big room is more costly to control....

My room control 13 feet square cost me nothing to be controlled...

Decent speakers can be found at a very modest price. What you put into a system can never be regained.

Decent speakers can be found at a very modest price. What you put into a system can never be regained.

You are right for sure but nowadays it is perhaps not so easy to buy a good dac like buying a good speaker but anyway it is relatively easy too...

The technology is coming to maturity...

What is difficult, underestimated, and most of the times simply not known is the transforming power of psychoacoustic and acoustc basic facts....

In a small room with a limited amount of money nothing can replace the S.Q, improvement linked to acoustic controls....It is my experience and experiments...

my best to you....

@mahghiter you are an intelligent and articulate individual. However my ATC SCM11‘s sound absolutely wonderful in. my bedroom system without any room treatments.

@mahghiter you are an intelligent and articulate individual. However my ATC SCM11‘s sound absolutely wonderful in. my bedroom system without any room treatments.

FIRST I am sure what you said is true....

SECOND some speakers in some room sound "good" without any acoustic control...

THIRD of these fact you cannot deduce that this is a rule...It is an exception...

FOUR you cannot know and you are not interested by the way they could sound even better with some acoustic passive treatment and some active controls.... It seems not necessary because they sound already good and i understand you... Who want to introduce acoustic control in a bedroom?

FIVE this fact that some speaker sound already good in some room contradict absolutely not what i speak about...
Sounding already good and working at their peak S.Q. potential is not the same thing......

Regards and best wishes.....


P.S. they seems very good speakers indeed....

OK point taken.

This is the point where I wish I could bring speakers home, audition them here and find the ones that have great synergy with my room as is. 

And great sounding speakers in an untreated room, could, repeat could, sound better in the same room if treated properly.

Think I may move my set up to the bedroom. Wonder if its the mattress that helps? 

Problem is, what reason would I have to get out of bed if I did that? Other than change record, washroom visits and get more popcorn :)

Wonder if its the mattress that helps?

You might actually be onto something there. It‘s a kingsize.....

May need to grab one of those mattresses found at the curb, drag it home and attach it to the wall...

Mahgister, you really needed to just say this:

FIVE this fact that some speaker sound already good in some room contradict absolutely not what i speak about...
Sounding already good and working at their peak S.Q. potential is not the same thing......

I am very pleased to say that you are right when you are...

Then in this case i am with you...

Enjoy your tea....

And had a good day....

😊

@ maghister:
" And no passive material treatment can do it only by itself in a room under 20 feet....Sorry..."

"20 feet" do you have any data to back this up? Your throwing numbers out there and imo you exagerate.

lets list the top 10 arguably best studio in the world or you know, some very well respected studio.

Abbey road 1 and 2
Conway Recording Studio
Village Recording Studio
Sound Factory
Sunset sound
Chicago Recording Company Studio 4
Circle Studios, Birmingham
East West
Manifold

NONE use active treatment. Why? Cause Passive treatment works perfectly, without any drawbacks (apart from visually)

- Passive treatment gives SOTA performance... even in relatively small rooms.
- Active treatment with DSP/EQ colours the sound, that cannot be avoided. that is undebatable. 
- Passive Tuned helmholtz resonator will work just as well as active subs cancellation methods or active helmholtz resonator and will avoid all this EQ nonsense.


" My 50 vintage bucks speakers sound like SOME not so good 15,000 bucks"

but your 50$ vintage speakers doesnt come close to the best 15000$ speakers out there. 

Yup DSP is not the answer for any but the lazy or misinformed. Having said this DSP is getting better and may at some time in the future be ready for prime time. All DSP is not created equal as well. 


Sorry but how many of these studios used JBL speakers back in the day? Most know what speakers the BBC used and they are preferable to JBLs but not SOTA. 

"20 feet" do you have any data to back this up? Your throwing numbers out there and imo you exagerate.

You are not wrong here in your remark.....

I have not calculated the exact size where controls of the timing early and late reflections will be more difficult.... And less rewarding and easy... A great hall is not a 13 feet room....

My room is 13 feet square and it is easy to use reverberation from the back for example to create a listener envelopment experience...
And easy to use reflection from the first reflection points for the better ...

And for the skeptic my sound is not unnatural at all.....I say that because the general saying to always  absorb reflections in general is simplistic... We must use our ears to know what to do in a specific room....


I did that by listenings experiments...

20 feet seems to me a good approximation separating big room and small one....But i had not calculated this scientifically with the many variables involved...

In a small room using all acoustical passive and active controls is rewarding at no cost....

I read somewhere that my 13 feet room is supposed to de difficult....

I experience the opposite...

It is because people usually use only passive material treatment ( balance between reflections,diffusions,and absorbing surfaces)

I used also a grid of resonators to control not only bass nodes but all the way up and control the timing and differentiate each wavefront of each speaker differently for each ear ...This give me a 3-d filling the room if the recording make it possible...Most classic recording are good...

My results are more amazing than anything i could dream of and no upgrade is on my future...

It is why i wrote this:

« acoustic is the sleeping princess and the future queen, the gear is the 7 working dwarves»

Most people here claim the opposite...The upgrading frustration confirm to me that i am right....people dont know how to install or embed their audio system... They read specs sheet thinking that only electronic compatibility is enough...

Perhaps the gear over some amount of money play a more important role, for those who can afford 100,000 bucks system perhaps and even in this case i listened harsh unnatural sound quality coming from many costly system in youtube ... Then acoustic for me is the key.....

My 500 bucks system is enough to make me smile...

Audiophile experience is linked to basic common sense and science especially psychoacoustic...

but your 50$ vintage speakers doesnt come close to the best 15000$ speakers out there.

Only a stupid person will claim that used vintage speakers are better than very costly new one...

But only ignorant person will doubt that acoustic transform completely the sound of a pair of speakers for their optimal working ...

There is no relation between my speakers S.Q. before and after my active room control...

It is not the best nor perfect but the S.Q. is so good i listen music and NEVER will think to upgrade...

Music filling the room is here and it is enough...