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Synergy problem

Hi, Audiogoners

 

  Well, I’ve learned a lot from reading these discussions that you guys have on this forum, so thanks.

  Now I have some questions regarding my own system, because it’s not quite where I need it to be. I need to switch out some components, and any advice would be greatly appreciated.

  My set up:

 

TT: Rega Planar 2, RB300 arm

Cart: Rega Bias 2

CD: Rega Planet

Preamp: ARC SP-6c

Amp: ARC D-90

Speakers: Klipsch Forte I

(w/ Crites aftermarket crossover and tweeters)

ICs are audioquest entry level

Speaker cable is monster

Headphones: Senn HD600

HP amp: Schiit Asgard

 

  The room is a bit challenging:  open-plan loft, 16’ x 32’. The listening area is at one end, and is about 14 x 14. There are a lot of huge glass windows to contend with, and ceilings are 10’ high. Wood floors. Area rug in the listening area. The speakers-to-listener triangle is equilateral, 10’ per side. Speakers placed on short wall, and I can go up to 2’ from behind speakers to wall.

  My audio signature preferences are toward musicality, a bit smoother (hence the tubes), I don’t need the last word in hyper-detail. I don’t play at crushingly loud levels.

 

I listen to everything – Stockhausen, post-punk, psych, Monk, Brahms. Mostly vinyl, some CDs.

 

1.     These speakers are not cutting it. While the dynamics are good and they rock, the upper-mids are shouty and glaring. On some recordings the treble is a bit harsh. With complex passages in for example orchestral recordings, they seem to get confused. Not sure why – maybe they don’t suit the room? People seem to love these speakers but they’re not working in my system. (The above problems are lessened when I hear playback through my headphones, btw)

2.     The cartridge is not great. It also is not well matched with the preamp. The preamp phono stage wants a cart with an output of around 3 mV. My current cart is 6 mV.   Oops!

 

So, my questions are:

 

Speakers:  Looking to spend maybe $1500, and leaning towards pre-owned. They need to be non-fussy with room location. They can’t be huge (maggies are out) or look strange (Martin Logans, out) due to WAF. Would ProAc towers work well in my set up? Maybe 2.5s or 3.8s, or Studio 140, etc. Or something comparable?

 

Cartridge:  $500 or less. Maybe I get a high output MC – Sumiko Blue Point (2.5 mV), Ortofon MC3 (3.3mV). On paper those match well with the SP-6.

 

Unfortunately, there’s just no way for me to hear these things together, and of course synergy is crucial. This is especially true with assembling vintage gear – there’s no auditioning any of it. So I’d be grateful if anyone in this forum might share their experience and help me going forward. Thanks in advance!!


plink-plonk
23 responses Add your response
audioconnection
1,271 posts
 
The ARC gear was used to Voice Proacs together
 Proacs are very refined and rewarding speakers that are sought after
 by many recording studios and musicians the world over.
We have carried them for well over 20 years.
 Before that, I would get my ass kicked losing sales to them and soon realized what a positive musical force they are.
 The ARC and Proac Floor standers are what I would hunt for
 Pre-owned 140 series 148 or DT8 about 3 k new or D 40s D 38s
 if you hit the Jackpot the latest D 48R after they run in in is an amazing achievement.
 Best JohnnyR
   
vair68robert
624 posts
 
For a cartridge upgrade that goes with a Rega tonearm
I recommend either a Grado Gold or more $ Rega Exact2 .
I've had the Grado and loved it , the Rega is easily mounted and aligned.
If you like your speakers I suggest 2 simple things
adding insulation and upgrading the wiring .
My friend did this and he also rebuilt the crossovers and he loves them , so the speakers can be improved.
Klipsch are high efficient speakers  99db, good with tubes,
if you replace them them look for similar efficiency  , at least 94db.




mrdecibel
3,063 posts
 
Dampen the mid horn on the Forte. 
helomech
1,672 posts
 
If a large sweet spot is important, I’d avoid Horns. I like my Heresys but wide dispersion is not their forte, pardon the pun.

I’ve found that AMT tweeters can also be quite "beamy."

KEF LS50s probably have the largest sweet spot of any speakers I’ve had in my system. The icing on the cake is they don’t sacrifice imaging for dispersion. They’re also very smooth on the top end, even more so than some of the BBC inspired speakers I’ve heard. I’m thinking you might do well to try the KEF Q950s or Q750s.


333jeffery
122 posts
 
Here are some speakers that would work well in your setup:https://www.audiogon.com/listings/full-range-smaller-version-of-double-impact-2017-12-29-speakers

They would be an improvement over what you have.
plink-plonk OP
12 posts
 
Also:
crwindy - there is in fact similar harshness with CDs as with phono...
plink-plonk OP
12 posts
 
Okay floor standing models for sure then. 

The seat-to-speakers triangle is 10' per side.

I'd like to have speakers that don't demand the listener sit only in the one sweet spot. I know this means some compromise in the imaging and other aspects of sq, but I accept that. They have to sound good from various spots in the room if possible. Am I right to believe that these requirements suggest towers in the ProAc, Totem, Ascend school?

(btw, I find my Fortes to be pretty seating position specific with regards to upper mids and above. Apparently the horn technology is very directional?)
 
helomech
1,672 posts
 
It will largely depend on how close you sit to the speakers and room interactions. You won't get much bass below 50Hz with stand mounts in that room, but the potential tradeoff is better imaging, improved midrange, and lack of bass bloat. You can eventually add a decent sub to fill in the low octaves is space permits. 

ProAc towers are probably great for your situation and you might be lucky enough to find a pair for that price. Consider used Spendor, Totem, and Ascend Acoustics towers as well. All will have a different tonal flavor but should have great midrange.
crwindy
121 posts
 
Is there less harshness with the CDs? If so, look at the cartridge first. If not then concentrate on the speakers.
plink-plonk OP
12 posts
 
Thanks for the input. I think i'm going to try to hunt down a pair of used ProAc speakers. The consensus seems to be that they match up well with ARC tube gear.
Evidently stand-mount models (Response 2 for example) are not up to the task for a larger room like I have?
Do I definitely go for floor standers?
Thanks
213runnin
914 posts
 
Mofojo's experience is a bit of an outlier.  If you have to EQ the sound with an iphone, obviously some other things are at play.  
helomech
1,672 posts
 
I agree that new Heresys are not  fatiguing or harsh, but they won't provide the bass of which you're accustomed. I like Klipsch heritage but they can be unforgiving of gear weaknesees or poor recordings. I highly doubt Zu is any different in that regard. 

I would try auditioning something at the other extreme, something non-horn loaded, with softer, intrinsically damped driver materials. ProAC might be a good choice, but you won't find any of their large models in your price range unless you want a 15+ year old pair.

Orchestra recordings can be tough for many speakers, expensive ones too. Even if buying used, $1500 will require a compromise in some way or another, whether it's dynamics, bass extension, tone, cohesion... There's many great speakers at that price, but I'd be looking for a pair that has sins of omission rather than sins of commission. Right now you have speakers with great dynamics and bass but harsh, congested highs. You might consider sacrificing some bass extension and volume for something more forgiving. I know many have their hearts set on floorstanders due to bass volume, but I've been much happier since I moved to stand-mounters. Price being equal, they usually have better quality drivers and the cabinets have less resonating surface area (which leads to congestion with floor standers). IMO, harsh and fatiguing highs are far worse than a lack of bass volume. 
simao's avatar
simao
1,819 posts
 
I think you should keep your listening room and get a new hobby. It sounds beautiful.
mofojo
2,288 posts
 
Have you tried any EQ with the Klipsch. I had a pair of Chorus II with Crites tweet and crossover for a while. It was a really fun Speaker. With no EQ it sounded like you are describing. Shouty, piercing. I ran some pink noise and used the audio tools app on the iPhone to dial in the EQ with Amarra. Sounded much different after that. With some EQ I think the older Klipsch can do some things better than most. 
plink-plonk OP
12 posts
 
oddiofyl - the tubes in both the amp and pre amp are new old stock and test strong... but: the caps on the other hand are original and 30 years old and probably need replacement. Would spent capacitors contribute to harshness in the sq? 

oddiofyl's avatar
oddiofyl
3,797 posts
 
I just bought a pair of Heresys and they sound quite good.  A lot of that I feel is due to how they interact with the room.    I think they sound fantastic actually.   I am driving them with a pair of EL34 mono amps and they are not one bit harsh.   When's the last time you replaced tubes?    
plink-plonk OP
12 posts
 
You guys are awesome - thanks. I'll follow these leads.
And I will definitely keep the ARC gear - that was a quantum leap forward when I got those pieces.
As the upgrades progress, I will post my impressions...
tomic601's avatar
tomic601
12,911 posts
 
oh....and I am pretty biased..but keep the core ARC gear...
tomic601's avatar
tomic601
12,911 posts
 
better cart and then you will have a better idea on the Klipsch....trying to stay positive there...i do have a set of Crites upgraded Cornwalls in my garage....they are..well......loud.

Hana
Dynavector
Ortofon black
maybe a Grado...magical midrange and the RB300 should just balance it...
wolf_garcia
6,695 posts
 
Klipsch Herresy IIIs are available new for exactly the amount you've budgeted (look around), are relatively compact, and the pair I just bought sound fabulous. Or, I can sell you my Silverline Preludes.
twoleftears's avatar
twoleftears
5,318 posts
 

I tend to think you're right in pointing your finger at the Klipsches.

Lots of alternatives.

Just looking on A'gon right now, I'd single out:
Wharfedale Jade

Totem Forest

Silverline Prelude

Check into Ryan Audio, too.

onhwy61's avatar
onhwy61
5,215 posts
 
Proceed one step at a time, probably starting with your source components.  Changing the cartridge is a good idea, but then also consider upgrading the turntable.  There are better Regas.

Once you do what you do, post your impressions.
asp307
159 posts
 
You may want to check out the ZU Audio Omens (Dirty Weekend edition can be had for $999). These are high efficiency speakers and if musicality is your thing, these may fit the bill. I have their Soul MKII's and the midrange is where this speaker thrives. Highs are not harsh. They have a solid return policy if you want to try them first. They should help you achieve WAF too.
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