Read a post the other day where someone characterized a server/streamer as “sweet and tube-like sounding”. It read like a parody. Am thinking of starting a company based on tube rectified power supply for network switch. Crowd funding?
It is absolutely not personal, but my apology stands. The irony is that my system reflects a complete lack of dogma, including with respect to measurements. I do tubes and vinyl for goodness sakes! I know that the amp in my big rig has a rated signal to noise ratio of “>90 db”. Compare that to the Benchmark or the newest stuff from Simaudio where it’s something north of 120 db. I also know that tubes are inherently more susceptible to noise and I choose to live with both of those limitations, cuz I just love my gear! What I don’t do is try to argue that my stuff is better, or more resolving, than everybody else’s. I know better.
But I have developed a passion with respect to the network switch/server/streamer end of things because that’s where I believe there is the greatest amount of misinformation in our hobby. I do not doubt that most of the people responsible for this misinformation - including you - believe very strongly in what they say. But as a long-time audiophile -even longer than my car passion - I feel an obligation to continue to share my views - respectfully - in order to help others in our hobby.
One of my favorite management aphorisms is: “Don’t always believe what you think.” It’s a really good lesson to us all.
Based on @mdalton posts, I don’t see why anyone should give any credence to OP opinions on streamer/server…he is a hard core Vinyl enthusiast and he will never pursue or ever concede to a notion that a SOTA streamer/server can outperform a Vinyl setup. Just my .02 cents.
Thanks for your comments. On your last point, I would like to apologize for my tone. I did mean to mock an idea, not a person, but I can see how it came off the same way; I’m sorry. And hobestly, I did mean to be click-baitey, but maybe that was a bad decision. My intention - however poorly executed - was to provoke an earnest discussion.
Confirmation bias, your brain playing tricks on you…all these standard lines are used by those who either 1) can’t hear; 2) never heard and have no experience, and 3) can’t afford to own
And this is the standard line used in response to allegations of confirmation bias. #3 is especially obnoxious -- "your system is not resolving enough."
It really does no good to have this debate in a macro sense. Each individual tweak, type of gear, etc., has its own likelihood (or lack thereof) in influencing sound.
There are CDPs that use tubes ; is it really nuts for a streamer to do the same.
CD players that use tubes include the analog stage of the DAC. That may influence sound. A pure streamer takes the PCM stream (packetized) from the LAN port and outputs it via USB or SPDIF (or other). There’s no analog stage. Putting tubes in an entirely digital data processing device is beyond silly. If it affected sound at all, it would likely be detrimental since a tube is more sensitive than solid state to many electrical issues that theoretically could affect a streamer.
The introduction of the Aurender streamer into my system introduced a very natural and sweet tone that reminds of good tube gear
Let’s break this down: (1) if used as a server only (with another device - a streamer -- on the other end of the network attached to a DAC/with an internal DAC) then the server cannot possibly affect sound quality except as to DSP processing or similar - i.e. the bit perfect signal received by the streamer is the same no matter what machine is transmitting that signal across the network; (2) if used as a server/streamer, then yes, it can theoretically affect sound quality, but only in the sense that the theory goes that the processing at the server end can be electrically noisy and detrimentally affect sound - so a really well designed server *might* be able to avoid some of that, but most likely using a server/streamer combo device isn’t optimizing sound quality if it makes a difference at all. It’s possible you like sub-optimized sound, and there’s nothing wrong with that.
it’s stuff like this that make all of us the deserving objects of ridicule from our non- audiophile friends.
I think the point here is that audiophiles look silly putting rocks on their speakers, using directional colored fuses, and making claims about digital networks that make no sense to the experts that really know how they work. Then the anger and ganging up that occurs when someone makes a point using science and engineering just exacerbates this.
I am a big proponent of being open minded and considering anything, at least for a minute. But you still do have to engage the logical/science part of your brain at some point. Science hasn’t explained everything yet. So observation has its place in starting a thought process. But that also doesn’t mean that network gear has magical qualities that literally cannot exist given how networks work.
All of that said, I don’t know that I would have started a thread just to make fun of someone. I think a response in that thread that explained the science and engineering behind the server-streamer concept would have been sufficient.
so i used the car example to try to take some of the audiophile mysticism out of the equation. (Another common example is that most people have very different responses to a man with a deep voice saying something, vs. a woman -or man - with a high pitched voice saying the exact same thing.)
But back to my car example: I’m a very experienced driver. I’ve been driving high performance cars - mostly manual transmissions - for almost 40 years. So I have a similar passion there to my audio passion. So maybe it’s not quite as good an analogy for others as it is for me. Regardless, in that case, I know that the science tells me what I’m feeling is not an accurate representation of what’s actually happening. Don’t need to measure it because I don’t have any doubt. I could measure it however, though in this case it would be a pain to do so. My approach to audio is very similar. If I feel something that science - or measurements - tell me is not actually accurate, I don’t reject the science. It helps me sort thru my experiences to weed out those that are not an accurate representation of what is actually occurring. That way, I can spend my money where I can be sure it will make a real difference.
Of course, maybe my car example is telling me not to overthink it. Maybe if I just enjoy the moment, and let myself be carried away by my passion for my hobby, I don’t need to spend much at all, just put my gear thru a $40 monthly wash, lol!
First off, I haven’t heard a streamer that is “tube like” but I’ve only heard a small fraction of streamers out there. There are CDPs that use tubes ; is it really nuts for a streamer to do the same.
Secondly, do non audiophiles laugh at us? Of course they do; it isn’t a “dirty little secret “. There are probably less than half a million audiophiles in this country. Most people are content with lousy sound.
Based on @mdaltonposts, I don’t see why anyone should give any credence to OP opinions on streamer/server…he is a hard core Vinyl enthusiast and he will never pursue or ever concede to a notion that a SOTA streamer/server can outperform a Vinyl setup. Just my .02 cents.
But seriously, it’s stuff like this that make all of us the deserving objects of ridicule from our non- audiophile friends. I’m convinced that confirmation bias is the dirty little secret in all our lives that we need to acknowledge before we can move on.
Anybody who thinks they’re immune is in denial. On another thread recently, I posted the following:
“one more point: confirmation bias is alive and well in car performance, just like audio. Case in point: I have had numerous instances where, right after getting my car washed, I experience this compelling sense that my car handles better - swear to god! Why? Well I’ve just spent an insane amount of money - $36 most recently, before tip! - and now my pride and joy looks beautiful. I’m feeling good, and I’m focused on this amazing machine’s performance in a way I hadn’t during the dog days of January and early February when I kept putting off cleaning the car. So I have an enhanced appreciation of my car’s performance, even though that performance has not changed one iota. It happens every time, even though I know it can’t be real! That’s confirmation bias, and that’s why I’d be a fool not to consider measurements!
last point (maybe?) thank god the car wash hasn’t started a marketing campaign that their special mix of soap and wax improves the performance of my S4 and Golf. My god, I might be willing to pay them thousands!!!!!”
Let’s actually discuss this. Has nobody else ever experienced this, or something like it?
One should also consider…as @mahgisterhints at the the actual character of clothes are unaltered by our words to describe them… warm, analog and tube like will not keep ya from freezing to death in the Karakoram…..
Can they apply to a DAC….. absolutely….. Hint there is ALWAYS an A….. in DAC
gosh, a lot of anger there. I actually didn’t remember who said it; didn’t really matter, as it’s just a metaphor for what I see as a broader problem with the hobby. are you saying you want to invest in my company?
In audio many people had no acoustics concepts or training, they think that all pertain and is explained by design of gear pieces be it tube or S.S. or class D or Class A etc or Vinyl versus Dac etc ...
But an audio stereo system work as a whole synergetically or not in three working dimensions : mechanical, electrical and acoustical...
Then even if design choices of each gear pieces matter for sure , it matter less at the end than the way we use each one of them in and for a system/room/ ears-brain ...
Because reviewers and marketing sell a piece of gear as a solution, people forget not only synergy necessities but they dont focus on the system as a whole and they dont focus on the ways( mechanical, electrical and acoustical) the system must be inserted in these working dimensions in a rightfull manner.
Then they use gross classification based on price tags : low fi, mid-fi, high fi. And they think that solutions are all costly and ready made.
There is five vocabulary in audio : electronical design concepts and vocabulary, audiophile threads language, musical concepts, acoustical vocabulary, psychoacoustical concepts ... We must learn how to hear and learn how to distinguish all these concepts in a concrete way.
«This emperor has too much clothes»-- Groucho Marx🤓
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