Laughing...
The Emperor Has No Clothes!!
Read a post the other day where someone characterized a server/streamer as “sweet and tube-like sounding”. It read like a parody. Am thinking of starting a company based on tube rectified power supply for network switch. Crowd funding?
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Heck guys I wouldn't concern yourselves with "looking silly." Many's the time when I am having a party at my home (my wife's friends usually) and the non-audiophiles gather around to ogle the system that they snicker when they see the "old fashioned" glowing tubes which they assumed had ended along about WW2. Most of them give me a look which seems to say, "Who is the anachronistic old fart?" |
Single malt is definitely the best room treatment in my experience. Re windows, yes, I know there’s a lot of dogma out there on this, but my experience with my room has been very positive. There’s a youtuber called “Acoustics Insider” I’ve recently run across who provided a potential explanation why, based on absorption rates of different materials. (Bottom line: at lower frequencies, not much difference between glass and drywall; at higher frequencies, bigger differences, but since high frequency is more directional, glass behind speakers doesn’t matter as much.) YMMV, of course.
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@mdalton You definitely [accidentally😀 ] struck a nerve even without naming names. I'm in your camp on digital as far as server/streamers/switches not imparting a sound of their own although my Pandora Dac is quite distinguishable from my Mytek Dac which i suppose could be tubes v SS. As for that wall of glass behind your speakers i can see why you don't want to cover that view; however, i have a similar setup with a giant window behind my speakers--the system still sounds good with the window exposed so i'm guessing that wall doesn't influence as much as if the glass were on the side(s) or behind the listening position, but i finally broke down and installed a curtain rod with mechanized drape to cover that window. The difference was quite noticeable and an improvement--sound is fine without it when i want the view (mine's not nearly as nice as yours) but at night i always cover that window and the sound is better--just a thought... |
oops, fat fingers: to finish the thought: I finally realized that the Yamaha stuff was great engineering, but a terrible user interface, which was just getting in the way of musical enjoyment. That’s when I moved to Sonos (~2007 maybe?), before moving to Roon a few years ago. The technology is so good, and so simple, I find it easy to stay out of the candy store. |
an interesting metaphor indeed. I have frequently been accused of not understanding or embracing the digital side of our hobby whenever I point out the server/streamer craziness out there (and don’t get me started on network switches). But I’ve tried to use knowledge and common sense as a restraint. The irony is I’ve been streaming since about 2004 - I invested considerable $ in the original Yamaha Musiccast system: the MCX-1000 server/streamer/DAC, as well as 3 client A10 streamers. I was an audiophile snob, so didn’t want my home computer touching my audio system. But to |
There was some Formula One champion who said his main secret to racing success was "brake management" by which he meant using them as sparingly as possible in order to extend their functional life, and apparently he was a supreme master at doing this. Somewhere in there is a metaphor for trying to restrain oneself when faced with the "embarrassment of riches" that is the modern candy store of audio components. |
My wife and I love Savannah! We’ve been collecting art (that sounds so 18th century!) for almost 30 years now, and it started with a getaway to Savannah. We bought a couple pieces from a self-trained French Algerian with a studio in Savannah. We still have and love those pieces, and have added many since. And don’t get me started about the low country food scene there - oh my! I’ve always characterized Savannah as a more genteel version of New Orleans. |
Thanks interesting anecdote confirming my experience...
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Most people thinking that their speakers sound at their top optimal S.Q. when they put them in a non dedicated room are delusional by cirscontances or price or ignorance... Not all people had the luxury of an acoustic dedicated room... Not all people had the money to ask an acoustician to build one... Not all people have the time and the knowledge necessary to build one at low cost... I am sorry about these truth facts...😁 No gear sellers will ever say trying to sell you his miraculous product or after selling it to you , that his costly piece of gear especially the speakers need a dedicated room to sound at their top ... I learned that because i had no other choice than to investigate....Nobody said that to me....😁 The knowledgeable will claim at most that room acoustics matter... i read that years ago and decided to experiment ... But in fact acoustics concepts and experiments is the key of audiophile experience, for any system at any price ...The price tags does not matter here ... ( And yes to put the point on the letter (i) a better designed system had a better potential this is a common place fact which not does contradict in any way my point above but confirm it ) But there is a good news hidden in this acoustics inconvenient truth. upgrading the gear is not always the best solution. And modest acoustic change in a living room can pay more than a very costlier possible upgrade...
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Here’s a story for you all regarding the room. I have my listening room which is quite large but has dormers. I had some corner traps and a few absorption panels on the front wall behind the speakers. Now my shop is 30x30 with a drywall ceiling finished in textured spackling. The walls are insulated and covered with perforated Masonite. That makes the shop hemianechoic (mostly). When I sold my Thiel speakers a couple of years back I set them up in the shop with a cheap little bluetooth amp so the buyer could audition them before purchase. The Thiels sounded amazing in the shop. I got sick to my stomach because they sounded so good. This was nuts. My first thought was cancel the sale but the buyer was already on the way. I was ready to move my stereo to the shop until my wife talked me off the ledge. So I went to work on my room. It took me a couple of months, but I got the room to sound much, much better. Mainly I had to work on the sloped ceilings but also put absorbers- bass traps in the dormers. The last issue is signal to noise. The diffusers and absorbers actually helped with that too. Still, if I had room in the shop… |
Thank you for the invitation and likewise if you are ever around about the Savannah, GA area. I live not too far from there-100 miles from downtown. Hey, we’ve been known to drive down there for dinner- not much else to do in middle Georgia. It’s good to get a fresh set of ears to hear our systems. I stopped listening to my brothers. They’re just jealous. |
Yes, by all accounts, the windows in my big rig are supposed to be hugely detrimental. And yes, it’s a gorgeous room, so there’s no way I’m ever covering that view up. But somehow it works really well, perhaps in part due to the upward sloping ceiling, which you can’t see in the pic. When my local dealer at the time - a legendary figure in room setup - delivered the speakers, he was amazed at how good it sounds. Could it sound better? Am quite sure it could. Check out my vintage system - there I’ve installed acoustic ceiling tiles, and it really sings. But if you ever find yourself in Nortgern Virginia, give me a shout. You will be treated to single malt scotch - if you indulge - and I’ll let you judge for yourself. |
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Sometimes it is truly disdain, other times it's in the eye of the beholder - i.e. people take offense when none was intended. Depends on whether it's actually an ad hominem attack or just being presented with a contrary viewpoint. The former is below the belt, the latter should be something that can start a civil conversation.
We can definitely be friends. There's nothing like the chemistry of the TOS crew. |
Ever wonder how we see black on a white projection screen? You could say it is confirmation bias. The brighter the projector and the darker the room, the blacker blacks look on the screen, The white screen has become the darkest surface in the room. We can listen to music on an AM car radio (back in the day, the 1960s) and appreciate the song even through the static. FM radio in the 70s sounded much better- confirmation bias? Sure it was but powerful enough to leave AM radio in the dust. Same with the growth of cassettes in cars and then CDs. Our senses are comparative. Confirmation bias is a part of life. Embrace it. It’s not a bad thing. When your system sounds better, enjoy it. Wondering if the expense of a new gadget is worth it? Put the old gadget back in. If the old gadget sounds as good as the new one, great. Save yourself some money. But why treat people with disdain for enjoying their systems? “Illogical”, says Mr. Spock. Yes, I like the Original series the best. Confirmation bias because that’s what I grew up with? Probably. |
Confirmation bias. Of course. I was at a dealer and he was switching between 2 DAC’s. I was amazed how he was so superlative about the difference. To my ears one sounded different from the other, but both sounded terrible. A bad setup? Going to AXPONA, perhaps 3 systems seemed at all musical, but each had their quirks. Still, this isn’t PA. Yet think of another psychological principal - Scarcity. If rare or expensive it must be better. The Apple 9 dollar dongle DAC is likely just as good as any similar device but e we won’t believe that. Also. Music is practically free! Listen to more music to try and learn what you enjoy. |
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This is a jaded bunch. It seems many of you have not had the pleasure of experiencing a well tuned, high end system. Brick & Mortar stores are scarce these days and even then finding a well done set up is rare. Visiting an Axpona is a great way to experience audio systems. Even there, out of the dozens of rooms I visited only a couple of systems stood out for me- and not the most expensive systems. Even if out of reach, hearing a well done high end system can be an inspiration- like watching pro golfers play. Then one can get a sense of what is possible. The first rule of audio: Your system sounds great until you hear something better. The OP’s system, for example. That is a nice stereo (your cat acts like he owns the place) and a beautiful room. But that wall of glass destroys the sound- only that room looks so good I don’t think I could change a thing in there myself. It’s an example of the compromises we have to make. Still, it is likely difficult to distinguish subtle changes in that room. The room is the most important component in a stereo system. Think about standing on the end of a long dock on a lake. Drop a pebble. See the nice, perfect concentric rings the waves make where the pebble fell into the water? Now drop a pebble in a small container of water. The concentric rings reflect off the sides of the container and the ripples quickly become a lot of hash. That is what is happening in a listening room. Room design and room treatments absorb those reflections or redirects them to make the room seem more like a lake than a small container. Some heavy drapes would help that room a lot but there goes the view. And one other thing- leaving a car dirty does harm to the paint. I just cringed when I read that. Automatic car washes are not good for the paint either. Nothing like a sponge, mild soap and a bucket of cold water. I bought my first new car in 1980. I washed it by hand regularly. Everyone said I would soon tire of that. I never have. |
If you are convinced you can hear a difference under normal listening conditions, that's one thing. If you can show there's a measurable difference that is well established to be enough to be detectable, that's a more interesting thing. If you can repeatedly convince others who are skeptical that you can hear a difference under normal conditions that is unmeasurable or measurable but well established to be inaudible, then that's a VERY interesting thing. Interesting things sometimes happen. VERY interesting things are extremely rare, and science and knowledge moves forward when we encounter those and investigate. |
Differing performance between unwashed vs. washed cars would result from effects of turbulent vs. laminar flow. Which is better: environmentally- and/or behaviorally-dependent. It’s elementary, my dear Watson. There’s a lesson for how this translates to hifi playback, I just haven’t spent enough to know what it is yet. |
hah! interesting theory on car maintenance there. Need to consult the science, and will get back to you. see @jji666 ’s post above. Tubes on DACs make sense because there is an analog signal involved there. You don’t have to prove anything to me - I try to be very inclusive. I had a used 2000 Audi A4 closing in on 100k miles; was due for a new timing belt, which would have been $$$. When I checked blue book, I realized that my speakers were worth multiples of my car. That’s when I got my 2023 Golf R, which I still have 10+ years later. Have decided not to check blue book again. yes, precisely why I feel compelled to weigh in on these issues when they come up, just to provide an alternative resource for those who are trying to sort things out for themselves.
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Lets face it, if there was a majority of people acoustically informed the industry will collapse to essentials... Each time in my life i was conned it was mostly my fault ; i did not wish to inform myself by laziness or by blind reactive emotion... Then dont exclude yourself scapegoating others...
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@mahler123 That's funny! And true! |
+1 @hifiguy42 My friends ask why my stereo costs more than my car. The answer is my stereo takes me to places that my car cannot |
@mdalton I am in agreement with you here. I think it is proper advice , especially to less experienced readers, to point out the over-the-top praising that some posters offer regarding the life changing returns on their equipment. Others have suggested that something is amiss with you or your equipment if you don't agree with them. We all know the type: very superior with respect to their own opinions. Where is the humility? Regarding cars, I have a 2004 Infiniti G-35 that I enjoy zipping around in. I do have a different take regarding car washing. I prefer to not remove the protective layer of road film. This is much more protective than a coat of wax. You end up with a repellent coating made up of the typical, primarily oil based road droppings. I don't worry about the salt treatment that we contend with here in the winter, it can't penetrate to the paint. Were I to wash this protectant away, I could see the rust forming. This is absolutely an astounding auto care revelation. Forget wax, polish, Armor All, undercoating, etc. Not in the same class. I've been doing this for years, so I am very, very qualified to make this determination. If you don't agree with me, you are obviously unintelligent, inexperienced, and so insecure that you have to prop yourself up with shinyness. Plus you have too much money to appreciate my invaluable, lower class redneck opinion.
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For the record, I really love my server and all 4 of my streamers. I almost never participate in the vinyl vs. digital debates because it is all so system dependent. I am often amazed at how good my digital side sounds, even though I prefer my vinyl. And I’m willing to entertain the possibility that my preference for vinyl might be a case of confirmation bias. I’m ok with that. A good friend, who is a very high-end digital-only guy recently came to my house to listen to some tunes on one of my two better systems. He made an observation about how much he preferred my vinyl vs. the digital side in that system. I didn’t say anything, but I did not hear the same limitation he did on the digital side. It is quite possible that he was experiencing his own case of confirmation bias cuz he knows I’ve spent more energy - and money - on the vinyl side of that system. Who knows? But it’s certainly not worth arguing about, to me anyway.
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This is what my first dreamed stereo system was looking like ( in fact all the pieces of my first system wasin one furniture box) 😁 when i thought that this was the dreamed Hi-Fi upgrade with no knowledge about mechanical and electrical embeddings controls devices at the times and no acoustics knowledge at all ... Things are not so much different today when people are focussed on gear piece price tags more than on the relation between gear pieces(synergy) and the room acoustic content and your head-ears-brain characteristics.. Then it is not suprizing that the vocabulary used in audio threads revolved around gear pieces descriptions as if the gear own all sound perceived qualities , described as S.S. or Tubes or vinyl like or digital like etc ...😊
As i said above there is FIVE vocabularies different dictionaries in audio, pick the right one and dont conflate them all ... |
This is a good step towards mutual respect and a civil discussion (or lack of any discussion) but I suggest it needs to come with the caveat that if someone makes an unqualified statement (i.e. doesn't portray it as an opinion or experience and rather as a fact) that is contrary to science and engineering, that it's fair for others to chime in and say that it's not supported by science or engineering (perhaps best in a non-mocking tone).
I can't speak for mdalton but I love both and have built many as a hobby in excess of what I really need. I've also bought them. I think it's important to differentiate between the server role and the streamer role even if there are combo units. The server sends digital audio, the streamer receives it and passes it on to a DAC (or its internal DAC). Science and engineering say that servers must all sound the same assuming identical software configuration. Streamers can theoretically be different, but in this day and age it takes a poorly built DAC to be sensitive to the theoretical differences (i.e. cannot reject electrical noise if there even is any). What I mostly rail against, trying to be respectful, is the server/streamer combo unit. If someone likes the convenience of the specialized software on those units, that's fine, and if someone is interested in units built like a tank for reliability or longevity, that is fine. Or if someone wants a fancy unit because they want the Porsche of audio, bling, that is fine. I have done my fair share of conspicuous consumption. But building out a server/streamer combo with the idea that it will sound best because of all the effort to isolate/insulate against electrical noise, that's a waste of effort and money, because you can get the same isolation and insulation by using a separate server and streamer and isolating the streamer with the network. So a $10,000 combo unit won't beat a laptop as a server and a decent streamer from a SQ perspective (albeit it may be more fun to play with). OK I've said my piece on this one. Peace all. Enjoy the music! |
Joining late. The main worry I have about meaningless or disconnected praise is that it distracts or diverts me away from improving more important problems in my system. Early on, I kept reading about expensive fuses. I’m glad I turned away from that to spend money on room treatments. It’s not that fuses might not help, but surely they should be lower down on my priority list than other unsolved bottlenecks. |
@mdalton Boxster S 6-speed, incredibly agile, stable and fast, wife loves it! Owned my dream car- black carrera base 7- speed, uninspiring really, wife was intimidated by it, so sold it. Should have bought a 4S instead but it too would have become a garage queen. |
carrera 4s is my dream car. I call my chipped Golf R the poor man’s Porsche. After I chipped it, it increased hp from 256 to 311. The S4 is my wife’s (yes, I know, I married the perfect woman); anyway, since it got my car close to the power output of hers (333 hp), she made me chip hers, so it now puts out ~ 430 hp! What Porsche do you drive?
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@mdalton On the lighter side... If you think your S4 performs better when it's clean versus dirty, next time put a coat of good wax or sealant on then report back on the seat of the pants performance enhancement :) (former chipped A4 owner, 312k miles- all mine! now A3 daily driver and a Porsche for weekend fun) |
