I use my grandpa's suspenders to suspend my disbelief.
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I think the problem is that peoples' mental self influence is often stronger than their audio memory or discrimination. I feel it myself most times I try out a new piece of audio gear that I've just purchased with the intent to upgrade. Actually, the poster above's comparison to fashion might be the best I've heard. Fashion is totally subjective and in no way quantitative. Of course fashion is fi kle and influenced by celebrities, price, .... There is no objective measurement nor any pretense of one... The audiophile world is very different on that account. |
Long ago, I purchased a pair of speaker cables that dealer said were directional. He told me if I didn’t like the sound initially, he said to reverse the connections. Go figure.......My dealer told me the same thing. At first they made the music too bright, so I reversed them. But that made the music too dark. So I reversed only one. Then it was just right. They were Goldilocks cables but I don’t think they are available anymore. Bummer. |
You guys are somewhat restoring my faith in Audiogon! Good to hear the silent majority (or maybe minority?) who have been beat down in the name of forum decorum whenever discussion of these "tweaks" come up. Free or low cost "tweaks" is one thing, but the next step always leads to the high priced "audiophile" versions. Yes, I haven't tried them. No, I won't and don't feel bad or hypocritical about it either. |
I think it should be possible to run redundant wiring in both directions to obviate internal (or external, like perception) issues. WIBD for short, and I think any audio geek worth their salt should rip the wire out of every component they own and reverse it to insure that the proper directionality is in play. Now where the hell IS my soldering iron? Damn... |
if I don't like them I'll at least know it's not the wireAh, Wolf, don't be hasty. Haven't you been paying attention? It may indeed be the wire. Not all manufacturers are savvy enough to orient their internal wire in the correct direction. Wire is directional because it is produced by pulling through dies (I learned that here from a leading scientist). If you do not like the sound of your new speakers, the verification process would be to reorient each wire individually until you determine which orientation sounds best. Otherwise, how will you know you have truly heard what your speakers are capable of. I have no doubt that completing the Reorientation of Internal-wiring Process for Optimizing Frequency and Fundamentals, or RIP-OFF for short, will give you an entirely new appreciation of the value of information to be learned on audio threads. |
Years ago I had a pair of Vandersteen 1Bs that included a small cat trampoline in their design (I think the new ones include this also). I noticed this did have an effect on their tone when the trampoline/sleeping spot was in use by the cat, and due to damage to the speaker cloth by clawing I sent them back to Vandy for new covers and then sold them. Also, I recently ordered new speakers that include Real Good Wire that if nothing else does make me feel better. Not sure what they're gonna sound like but if I don't like them I'll at least know it's not the wire. |
hifijones And what a coinkydink that a member who’s profiteered more from expectation bias than any other A’gon member would chime in with a bIt of sarcasm. Whoa! What! Wow, I was not expecting that! hifijones Well....if the coins just sit on the tops of your speakers then you’ve never spent them, huh? Saved maybe but not spent. As for your twisted logic allow me to straighten you out. Your coins are sitting on the top of the speakers so you aren’t saving them. You already spent them. You spent them on the coins on the speakers tweak. Now if you remove the coins from the speakers then you're saving them and are free to spend them on something else. |
Well....if the coins just sit on the tops of your speakers then you’ve never spent them, huh? Saved maybe but not spent. Didn’t think that one clear through there didja? And what a coinkydink that a member who's profiteered more from expectation bias than any other A'gon member would chime in with a bit of sarcasm.... |
Well...um...getting back to the subject matter of the thread: this one isn’t the most foolish because it’s free but imo it still qualifies as foolhardy. You know the one where you place several coins of the top front edge of the speaker cabinets? Even Sam Tellig fell for this one; perhaps that in itself tells you all you need to know about high-end audio reviewers? Now I’m all in when it comes to the practice of placing certain objects/masses on speaker enclosures in order to reduce cabinet resonances. But coins? Coins weighing several grams at the most are going to affect/reduce resonances on speakers weighing 1000X more than the coins? Nyet. It’s expectation/confirmation bias in its’ most benign form and to me it’s sheer folly. But like I said before...it’s free so knock yerself out. |
Thanks for the price updates geoffkait. Very encouraging. I think age must be affecting my eyesight; as well as ability to follow threads and stay on topic; much less less learn anything new. Cheers. Soundsrealaudio, you're right about the money; however you can probably easier twist the arm of an audiophile just after he gets his share of the proceeds from the sale of the home than when he paying the legal fees to get rid of the sac of hammers that's been 'hampering' his enjoyment of music, as well as many other pleasure of life. Cheers. |
Not sure if this discussion will ever be conclusive - the only achievement is an opportunity to rant about how stupid it is to spend 39k on a wire upgrade when in view, perceived value is highly personal and subjective - "cynicism is free", indeed, as someone said but so is stupidity and arrogance. But my point is who are we to judge? The 'audiophile' who has probably never spent more than 3-5k on his system will certainly find a 39k cable upgrade foolish. To each his own! |
Ok ptss, "reasons" might include validation (of owning the best), fear (of not owning the best), affirmation (of belonging to the exclusive club), and the afterglow (bias confirmation). I have no problem with companies making money, and if people want to pay for the wire upgrade, then fine, but IMO this has nothing to do with “value”…sort of like paying for a ticket to a movie and then paying 1,000 percent of the actual cost for a bag of popcorn. You already paid for the movie so for the full experience buy the popcorn. One thing that does bug me is the stupid marketing ads that try and make buyers believe they are about to own unobtainable, space-age technology the likes of which have not been seen since Roswell. Read the ad (linked in an earlier post by acebritpilot); “the most significant acoustical advancement in signal path technology”– really, “the” most significant? “Designed by leading Aerospace engineers and manufactuered in the U.S.A.”-who decides which Aerospace engineers are “leading?” ….also notice “manufactuered” – for $39K you shouldn’t get spelling errors. “utilizes the world's most cutting edge signal transmission technology which results in the greatest signal purity”- again, really? - “the world’s most cutting edge” - how many superlatives does it take to sell hook-up wire? “deservedly holds its spot in the top 1% of all high-end audio cables.”- Certainly the top 1% based on selling price. “This line is exclusively manufactured utilizing proprietary technics with rare and precious alloys.”- I really like the word “proprietary” since all it means is that nobody else is doing something the same way. Doesn’t mean it is “better” in any way but again, it goes back to that “unobtainable” thing. “MasterBuilt ULTRA wire belongs in only the world’s finest audio systems.”Well of course….if you buy the $39K upgrade, you wouldn't want to think you have anything less than one of “the world’s finest audio systems.” “Each lead is individually shielded and damped to eliminate ambient signal interaction.”"Individually shielded" is the first interesting thing in the ad - not everybody does that with speaker wire connectors. The benefit, or not, may depend on where they ground the shield. However, just because it is good for the space shuttle doesn’t mean it improves the sound of your speakers. The part about being “damped” might mean there is a cotton string inside the casing. “This combined with the purity of the signal path results in the lowest distortion possible with present U.S. Aerospace state-of-the-art technology.”- Good to know….especially if you plan to take your stereo system with you on a trip to the moon with SpaceX. If you dig deeper and go to the MasterBuilt website, you learn a whole lot more, such as; "These products were developed over several decades of research in metallurgy, electrical field effects, and the chemistry of dielectric materials. In addition, we utilize comparison-based listening tests against other top-quality brands of cables. Based on our years of research and A/B/X blind testing, we’re confident MasterBuilt Audio Cables have less distortion and coloration than any other competing cable, at any price!"So, they have been working for decades just to make this hook-up wire upgrade a reality. What else......holy crap you audiophile purists! MasterBuilt uses "A/B/X blind testing" to compare their cables! Everyone knows blind testing is a scam! How can you possibly expect to evaluate the quality of a cable by listening to it?! "Cable companies using a shotgun approach to engineering typifies the average small company. They try different materials and designs haphazardly in the hope of creating good sound."-Ok, so if you are an "average small company" just give up. You have already lost with your "haphazard" design efforts! "MB’s solution is to use the purest, Laboratory-grade cast copper, with 99.9999% of the impurities removed.....our listening panel rejected all other metals in the blind ABX tests, including silver, silver plated copper, aluminum, gold, and platinum conductors."Finally, common ground. I like copper best too. And, the closer; "One last thing: to have the best performance possible, we strongly recommend using the same brand of cable; if not the same line, throughout the entire system. Introducing a different type of cable can add resistance, distortion and coloration to the signal path that will only degrade the performance of the MB cables. Therefore, having a full loom of MasterBuilt Audio cables will result in their optimum performance."Amazing that cables costing tens of thousands of dollars can "degrade" when in the mere presence of a "different" (i.e., inferior) cable. Maybe the "true" audiophile should send their entire system in for a hook-up wire upgrade - you wouldn't want anything less than a "full loom!" Thankfully, cynicism is free....apologies to the offended. |
Seriously, this is a joke, isn't it?? No bits of wire cost this much, even if they were intended for use in a spacecraft or a synchrotron. And then, you let guys modify your speakers, which contain very, very ordinary crossover components (cheaper L and C than in my DIY units, I can see) and they can't even SOLDER worth a damn! Look at the mess in their website photos, terrible amateur crossover with appalling soldering, decorated with $30k worth of super duper wire.... wow, that's going to make it SO much better isn't it? my nine year old can solder, but these fools clearly cannot. What foolishness. A new level of pointlessness in consumerism! https://www.vonschweikert.com/ultra-internal-wire-upgrade |
The real problem with the whole thing is that High Technology especially when linked to NASA or DoD or DARPA is that high technology is as high technology does when it comes to sound quality. Audiophiles are the final arbiters of what actually works, not some secrecy shrouded burocracy. The marketing ploy of Space Age Technology or some sort of trickle down ultra technology is as old as the hills. Now if Schweikert had said anything about 7 nines copper, cryogenics or directionality of wire or even high Frequency high permeability alloys then I would put a little more credibility in his speaker wire mod. If memory serves Schweikert used to use Analysis Plus wiring in his speakers which actually seems like good move. |
Thanks cycles2 for clear comments-- " Hard to believe some people on this forum are legitimizing Von Schweikert Audio's "ULTRA Internal Wire Upgrade" for $39,700. If I owned these speakers I'd be insulted by Von Schwiekert coming up with this internal wire upgrade offer. How did they not get the correct internal wire voiced at design & build time? These speakers ain't that old to claim that internal speaker wires have made giant leaps & bounds in the past 5 years. The real losers are people that own these speakers when they try to sell them as prospective buyers won't want to settle for the non-upgraded version. Great reason to cross Von Schwiekert off my personal list of manufacturer's that protect the investments of their client" |
Thanks russmaleartist for the mention of the infamous "Sucker of the Year' award. The sad fact is there are shameless people in our industry, who deliberately attempt to use fantastical claims. Voodooists that have next to no tech skills,hoping to influence the gullible to hand over money for a charlatans product. From the general postings in this and other forums the vast majority of our members thankfully have no use for these hucksters and fraudsters. |
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