Tube amps under $7500

Ayon Spirit. You can use it as a power or preamp or integrated 

@bdp24 Appreciate the warning. At this stage I should focus on amps with dedicated 4 ohm tap.

@passthedutchie Like you I would naturally incline to KT150s and wonder why the unit costs $400 less with these vs. stock EL34. 

Always a BIG fan of RM’s Music Reference work…including the power amps…but they are super neutral ….hardly overly tubey but very very musical… get fantastic RAM tubes for them !  9 mk2 or the 200. IF you have fairly efficient speakers or don’t listen loud, try to find the RM-10 version w hand wound by RM transformers…. a grail amplifier…imo….

Yes, as I mentioned above, OTLs may not work with a low impedance load.  Adding a transformer to lower the amp’s output impedance sort of defeats the purported advantage of being transformerless.  I personally don’t care about such theoretical problems and like the sound of iron anyway.  The M 60 and M 30 are very good sounding to me, although a touch lean (i.e., not warm).  The Joule Elecktra OTLs were warmer sounding, but some developed problems with their tube sockets over time so one must take care buying those amps.  The bigger Atmasphere amps sound very good and are a touch warmer, but even used they might be beyond your budget.  The bigger Atmasphere amps use more output tubes in parallel to increase output and this also lowers output impedance so they should be even more compatible with your speakers than the M 60 or M 30.  When they are compatible with your speakers, OTLs kick ass-they make the music so lively and dynamic without being harsh.

I had a Rogue ST-100 for a minute. It sounded terrible on my speakers, which are extremely accurate. I understand that Rogue overdrives the power tubes so you must constantly replace them at about six months.

I have two Prima Luna Dialogue Premium HP, the non-balanced pre-cursor to the EVO's. I loaded the HPs (I run them as mono-blocks) with KT150's. That gave me just below 200 watts for UL and nearly 100 for TR mode The PL is easier to work with as all the controls are accessible while playing. The auto adjust bias is a godsend as I don't worry about having the tubes adjusted properly.

I've had the PL HPs for six years now and I'm still running the same tubes. They must have lost something, but I still can play anything very loud with no fatigue. That's the best test I know for an amps usability. I had to stop listening to the Rogue after it was in use for an hour. I didn't keep it a month. Don't buy a Rogue.

Ayon Scorpion II

$5,500

www.usatubeaudio.com

Rogers High Fidelity used

The Odysseys are sold state.

@hickamore 

Like you I would naturally incline to KT150s and wonder why the unit costs $400 less with these vs. stock EL34. 

Are you in the U.S.? If so, I'm not sure where you're getting those prices. At Upscale Audio — the natural place to buy PrimaLuna because Upscale's Kevin Deal is the brand's U.S. importer — the EVO 400 is on sale for $4,995. That's with 8 EL34s. With a set of KT150s, the price is $5,715.

@passthedutchie Thanks for correction. I was comparing the $5,715 "sale price" at Upscale against what is apparently their "regular" price of $6,178 with KT150s. You are correct that the price with EL34s is $4,995. And of course I agree that if one is going to buy PL, one should do it at Upscale.

@ditusa , the article you posted mentions several times that balanced operation was developed to make super long telephone line runs possible and adopted by the pro-audio industry for long cable runs between the mics and subsequent electronics. Sounds kinda like what I said in my post. 

Your article is also chalk full of vague generalities like this, "Balanced lines offer advantages even if the connection is only 6" long, although it is also helpful for longer distances."

While this may be technically true, so is saying that spitting into the ocean raises its overall volume of water. Any minute "advantages" a balanced operation has on a sub 15-20ft cable runs are, in most cases, inaudible and nowhere near worth the huge additional cost. Getting an amp that sounds great is priority 1. That amp having XLRs is a distance 4th place on my priority list. 

Absolutely the McIntosh MC275, new at $6500 retail.  I have the first MC275 reissue, the Gordon Gow Commemorative, since new in 1993. Specs are 75 WPC but routinely tests at 90 WPC plus.  Believe it or not, I’m only on my third set of output tubes which are 4 KT88 or 6550’s. The amp runs rather cool for a big tube amp, putting out less heat than my old Krell KST-100 and pulls half the current at just over 3 amps for the Mac.  Stellar job driving several sets of speakers over the years including hard to drive electrostatics Martin-Logan Quests and CLS II.  The amp is true balanced in that the phase splitter (the first tube in this design, a 12AX7) is bypassed and each phase has its own signal path until they meet at the output transformer primary.  That explains the 11 tubes rather than the 7 tubes (like a Conrad-Johnson Premier 8B) that is usual in tube amps with this output.  The amp is designed to converted to a monoblock by simply paralleling the outputs for a whopping 150 watts into 2 ohms  (yes, 2 ohms!) 4 and 8 ohms.  A simple future upgrade if you decide you need more fist.

@hickamore   I had a pair of Legacy Focus paired with a ModWright amp.  Always smooth,  natural,  transparent,  detailed,  excellent bass control.   I had previously sold all my tube gear.  As good as the ModWright was I wanted some of that tube warmth back.  I found the ModWright neutral,  but warmer than ARC tube amps when I tried that route.  I ended up being happy with a 6L6 tube Air Tight amp although I wouldn't characterize it as particularly warm or romantic.  

What I really wanted in the end was different speakers.  I still enjoy the Air Tight,  but wanted to experiment with options for my current speakers.  I was considering a ModWright hybrid integrated, which fits all your requirements except being a tube amp!  Seems like you are pretty averse to tube maintenance though.  I think I would have enjoyed the ModWright,  but ended up with another hybrid integrated that doesn't meet your aesthetic.  Only pre section tubes, but very smooth, pure, natural sound as I expect from a good tube amp.  Maybe a good hybrid could get you best of both worlds. 

If you want romantic sound and mention taking advantage of speaker efficiency,  why not something lowerer powered?  Maybe not single digit,  but 20-30 watt range. Something like Allnic used could fit the bill and check all your boxes if you're willing to wait for silver to be available. 

@porchlight1 @yoder  Thanks to this thread I am now an uncommonly well-informed tube amp shopper. Much appreciated.

@hickamore 

just had a thought:  what about bi-amping?  You could use SS on bass, and would give you more tube choices for treble.

@mdalton Interesting thought that had never occurred to me. I suppose it is a given that no tube amp in my price range can match its SS equivalent on bass? And if bi-amping with one SS device and another very different tube kit, wouldn't I then get into level controls and active crossovers? Remember, I am a lazy listener, not a gadget enthusiast.

definitely not expert in this area, but four different thoughts:  (1) some tube amps come with gain adjusters.  (2) if two amps have same gain, no issue.  (3) if different gain, you can lower gain on higher gain amp thru use of resistor on interconnect. (4) use an external passive preamp (attenuator) for the higher gain amp (For example, Lab12 sells one for $750.)  Again, just brainstorming with you, am sure others know much more about this, but if it works, you could save a bunch by getting a relatively cheap class d amp for lower end, and then you can splurge on a relatively low power tube amp for tonality at the high end.

 

I suppose it is a given that no tube amp in my price range can match its SS equivalent on bass

I think that would only be true if your preference is strictly solid state for bass.  I had a tube amp that sounded great, but with steroetypical bass disadvantages.  My 24 WPC Air Tight has great bass control and plays very loud for my room and even with some previous 89 dB speakers.  For me many of the SS I would compare it to would play louder and have some more dynamic headroom that I don't need,  but would not sound as natural.  I think it comes down to what sound signature you're looking for and musical taste preferences to get the best match with you and your speakers, not necessarily a certain type of amp is "the best" at this or that.  You can go down a rabbit hole just in what is the best class D amp or if/ when is it better than A or A/B as far as what's best just for SS bass.

"You can go down a rabbit hole just in what is the best class D amp or if/ when is it better than A or A/B as far as what's best just for SS bass."
@yoder  Wish I knew the trick for highlighting text copied and pasted . . . anyone?)

I was one of those who suckered on Bob Carver's intro product as his own company: a megawatt Bang For Buck Class D stereo amp, perfect for quick money exploiting the hormonal market of the time. Thought this would power the Maggies I was using back then. Um, no. So much for Class D. Sure, it's better 40 years later, but I'm A-A/B all the way now when it comes to SS power.
As for sonic preference in bass presentation: realism is essential, but so is amplitude, and that sense of dynamic headroom still thrills me. Guess you could call me a bassoholic -- my ancient ears gravitate to the bottom frequencies because they're the only ones I can still hear in a "critical listening" way. That's why Legacy, and you're right, that's why SS for the bass, providing it's 5-10 watts of Class A with A/B beyond. 
Given that I'm never spending $30k+ for a Fortress tube amp, we're down to feasible bi-amping. At least I still hear well enough above 400 Hz that the tube glow might be magical and worth implementing if not too fussy.
 

Alot of good suggestions here....BUT....the one I think gives you a sound of Real Music beyond the speakers themselves is the LAB 12 Integra 4....highly recommended. Good luck in your search...There's lots out there. I  also second Audia Flight.

If you have not reached out to Aric at Aric Audio, then your due diligence is not complete. 

@laaudionut Really admire the Aric gear but it is not feasible in my installation.

Wish I knew the trick for highlighting text

@hickamore  Copy the text, use " button,  paste text. 

Do you have a benchmark A-A/B amp/s for bass?  What amp combination are you using now?

What is not feasible about Aric gear?

@yoder No trouble copying and pasting text, but it does not appear highlighted when pasted, and the " key seems to have no effect. Hmm. Maybe my browser, maybe my incompetence. Meanwhile,

"What is not feasible about Aric gear?"
Two-chassis, single end input only. 
Equally important, what is your take on Aric bass presentation relative to A-A/B SS gear? 

@hickamore The Transcend Push Pull mentioned here previously is single chassis, and I can add fully balanced differential XLR Inputs to any of my amps.

I also build each piece by hand, so customization is easy, and two chassis units can generally be built into a single chassis as well with some careful execution of layout. I just wanted to point these things out for those reading the thread.

Best regards, Aric

@aricaudio Appreciate the information. You have caught my interest. Two questions:
1) I love 6SN7s as preamp tubes but have never seen them in a power amp before. Can you explain why in a way that a non-engineer can understand?
2) Did not see rated 4-ohm WPC on website. How would bass response compare to Parasound JC5 SS amp? I am not hoping to enter the Bi-Amp Derby.

"What is not feasible about Aric gear?"
Two-chassis, single end input only. 

@hickamore  Lots of posts on this thread, not sure if you missed response directly from Aric.  He offers balanced inputs and even offered to do a mimic of a silver metal chassis.  The Transcend recommended is single chassis, and I believe has the highest power options available.

 

@maxdukecapone Thank you for the mention! I wanted to add that any of my amplifiers can be fitted with fully balanced differential inputs at a modest upcharge (the cost of the Jensen input transformers and Neutrik XLR jacks). Additionally, I can also finish the chassis in a thin hardwood painted silver to mimic a silver metal chassis at no additional cost. Best regards, Aric

 

Equally important, what is your take on Aric bass presentation relative to A-A/B SS gear? 

I wish I new.  I was tempted to buy a Transcend push/pull, but decided I wanted to keep my Air Tight 6L6 amp and try something more different instead.  I would ask Aric directly.  He should know this answer best.  I have not worked with Aric, but I suspect he would provide honest feedback as other builders I am more familiar with who have some similarities thrive on satisfied customers spreading news about their product grassroots, not with big marketing campaigns.  

 

I can only comment on experiences relative to my benchmark gear.  It's all relative, which is why I asked what your benchmark currently is.  

For my 24 WPC Air Tight versus my previous ModWright KWA 150SE, I felt the Air Tight bass was surprisingly close.  I did not miss anything with depth or volume with the Air Tight, just lower overall gain.  On paper I believe the ModWright should perform better with transients, which may be true, but I didn't notice it.  I prefer the Air Tight bass overall as more realistic and palpable.  I never had the Air Tight paired with the Focus.  The ModWright was very good with the Focus.  Endless reserves of stupendous bass provided by the combination.  For my room and tastes the bass of the (older) Focus was boomy and untamable and not pleasurable long term.  That is not the fault of the ModWright, which is very controlled with high quality bass.  I would only call it lean in bass when comparing to more heavy handed amps.

As much as I like the Air Tight, my current speakers allow for a more forward presentation and I wanted to try something else.  I use my system for a lot of non-critical listening and wanted something if not as good, still pretty good that wouldn't burn up much or any tube life.  

I tried a Naim NAP 250 DR (used), which I really like and still currently have.  Bass is strong, well controlled, and deep as I would expect it to be.  The biggest difference compered to the Air Tight is gain/volume.  I wouldn't call it tubey, but I feel it has tube qualities that it is always smooth never fatiguing.  It is a great substituute for the Air Tight, but, if anything, too similar.

I happened to get my Air Tight from @grannyring here who I didn't know prior (great guy).  I recently came upon a ~2021 review of his about his Circle Labs A200 hyrid integrated.  Shortly after I read it a demo became available and I went for it.  I am really enjoying this amp so far overall.  Bass is not what I appreciate most about it, but it is a benchmark amp for me for bass, though I need much more time with it.  I have heard and felt bass in ways not previously experienced.  I believe it is the speed of the amp combined with the speed of my speakers.  On a track known to me I thought I had a buzz issue developing from the amp, and then found out I was hearing it in a way that my previous gear could not produce.  It's definitely a special amp.  I would be curious if I would experience similar qualities with a good Pass Labs or Coda amp, but have not had the pleasure of hearing them yet.

At the same time I had seen a Berning EA-230 on eBay and went for it.  Turned out to be in wonderful condition.  It is all tube.  I've seen discussions over the design, but no transformer, whatever the design may be called.  Doesn't run hot.  Tube life is very long, at least 10,000 hours I believe.  It is extremely clear, very detailed, absolutely no noise from my 96 dB speakers.  I think I would call it more forward, but it's so clear it draws you into the music and is romantic in a different way than that warm tubey sound.  It is as clear or clearer than my SS benchmarks.  Bass is very good.  I have a hard time believing it's a 30 WPC amp.  Bass is not flabby, but I think stronger compared to the Air Tight tube or the Circle Labs hybrid.

As of right now I'm enjoying switching between multiple amps and enjoying the different sound signatures of each, not necessarily trying to choose which is best.  

 

@hickamore Thanks for the interest, and the 4 ohm rating is the same as the 8 ohm ratings, as you don't gain power by dropping the load in a tube amp as you do with a solid state amp (well you do, but distortion rises, and power increases marginally). This is why we have multiple speaker output taps, so the impedance that the power tubes see stays the same, and matches the speakers connected to it. The power ratings are:

 

- EL34- triode-mode= 20 watts/U.L. mode=35 watts

- KT88- triode-mode= 25 watts/U.L. mode=45 watts

-KT120- triode-mode= 40 watts/U.L. mode=55 watts

-KT150- triode-mode= 45 watts/U.L. mode=65 watts

 

The 6SN7 is an extremely linear audio tube, and has a decently low output impedance so it makes an excellent input (which is similar to your preamp), and driver tube- to provide the correct volt out and impedance to drive the power tubes linearly and without slewing or roll-off on the frequency extremes. Many amplifiers use 12AU7s in thee positions as they're smaller, and require less heater current, but they are also not very linear- not anywhere near as linear when driven off of the plate as the 6SN7. The 6SN7's "body" and fullness is complimentary to the overall voicing of the amplifier. I've used several other tubes here, and the 6SN7 was simply the winner. 

 

As far as bass, the amplifier has very clean, tight and extended bass that extends nicely to below 30 hz. Since the feedback in the amplifier is variable/defeatable, you can dial in as much damping factor as you desire in the bass, or run in triode mode with no external feedback, the natural internal feedback of the tubes has solid control and extension in the bass range (but not quite up to par with UL mode with the NFB engaged fully). I drive my Spectre 12 vented loudspeakers routinely with this amplifier and in room response extends into the 20s, and has enough impact and definition to startle you with any style of music. I am a bass player, and have played in working bands all of my life, so solid, and extended bass is not something I consider trivial!

I hope this helps, Aric

@yoder  aric did respond directly and I am now conversing re the Transcend.

Appreciate your report on amps. Sorry I missed your earlier question. Reference(s) are Parasound Halo A21+ and JC5 to which I plan to upgrade if I don't go tube instead. Very pleased with its iron-grip control and musicality on the lowest frequencies. 

@aricaudio Everything I wanted to know and more, thanks!

Now I need to ask about price with fully balanced mod. Perhaps beyond my means at present. Choice of finishes? Tubes included or BYO? Are those Tung-Sols in the photo?

You're welcome! Balanced inputs adds $300 to the total price, so $5,575 + shipping. A full compliment of tubes are included (however the Tung Sols pictured are not, they are just representative). I include a trio of NOS Sylvania 6SN7GTBs, and a quad of Svetlana EL34s. You can also message me using the contact us link on my website if that makes things easier. Best, Aric

@aricaudio Thanks, got it! Will conduct future conversation via website messaging.

@hickmore, I assure you, you are heading in the right direction with Aric. His gear and customer service are beyond compare! Best wishes for audio bliss!

@laaudionut Appreciate the encouragement. If Aric is a one-man shop, I hope he is substantially younger than I am. Will inquire about a listening visit before buying as I can get to the Springfield MA area rather easily.

I hope it works out for you and Aric Audio.  I like small custom builders who know what they are doing and don’t greatly overcharge for their services and I like the fact that you will be auditioning the gear before buying.  You have been quite diligent in seeking advice here, but in the end, it should come down to hearing before buying.

hickamore

Best of luck on your final decisions, I wish you the best.

I have couple of other needs that I'll be purchasing from Aric, my experience with his equipment is that impressive. Except for a CODA S5.5 SS amp (which is extraordinary), I can't see myself buying any other brand.

@larryi @vthokie83 Appreciate the reassurance. I am "on the case," as they say.

BAT is the least tubey. It is still tube sound, but to my ears almost transitions to SS MOSFET like Pass Labs. Built like a tank, lasts forever, resells fast, if needed.

@mikhailark The only BAT amp in my price range (recently discontinued and now discounted) is unavailable in silver. Anyhow, I have already gravitated to the custom single-chassis Aric which can be fully balanced. Its allegedly "tubier" sound and customer service has made it my tube amp choice. Only question is whether it can deliver enough current for my speakers, which are notorious for huge impedance drops in the low frequency range.

How do you like the Berning amp by now?  Is it an EA-2-30 or a ZH-230?

https://www.space-tech-lab.com/NewPhotos-2017/SE-845-100W/SE-845-100W-3.JPG

@hickamore - It may be a great amp, but I personally not sure about buying from a single-man shop $$$ amp. What about service? What happens if the business goes belly up or owner decides to retire or otherwise to move on?

I would rather buy used BAT or find bigger manufacturer with good service. Speaking of - Audiogon lists Balanced Audio Technology VK80t for $7290 right now from a dealer.

@mikhailark Valid concerns that I have thought about. These would worry me more if I were younger, however. Next amp I buy for keeps will certainly be "end game." Despite occasional enthusiasms, I won't be pulling the trigger before January 20, 2025. One might be best advised to defer purchases of costly, esoteric electronic gear before assuring oneself that the near future will not include a national descent into anarchy. Hobbying is the first casualty of existential crisis.

@hickamore - I have opposite view actually. I would rather enjoy my gear before zombie apocalypses takes over even if only for a few weeks or months. :-)

The US is not the only country on the globe that has electricity :-)

@mikhailark Not the only country that has electricity, but if you are able to buy a house abroad, pay for transport of your many expensive components, and set them up an ocean away, then yours is a more portable lifestyle than mine. Maybe you already have dual citizenship and a second residence abroad. Lucky you. Some of us are a bit short on safety valves.

@hickamore - many countries are significantly cheaper than the US, provide universal healthcare and gladly accept retirees. But anyway, it is definitely not for everyone. I moved between countries twice in my life, so this is not a problem for me at all. YMMV, of course.

@mikhailark  a lot of bigger companies have gone belly up, I wouldn't worry about that, tube equipment is easy to work on.

@hickamore if your speakers drop down in impedance I would seriously look into the space tech lab hybrid amps that use a 300b to drive an 845 and then mosfet output stage. I have one of space tech lab cheaper hybrid amps that drives my apogee speakers really well even though it's only 35 watts. His 845 hybrid amps are a lot more powerful.

@mikhailark In truth my own immobility lies in a1.5-acre live-in, finest-and-rarest arboretum created over 40 years. Then there is the 2k-bottle fine and rare wine collection, assembled over the same time, demanding impeccable storage and transit conditions. Unlike amplifiers, trees and wines are living things. I could subsist on everyday wines, but losing the garden would be curtains. So you're right: amplifiers are trifles in the greater scheme of things.
@invalid Indeed, a huge hybrid amp (a one-off T+A) has been recommended to me and there is no doubt it would handle the  bass dips. Still, now is not the time for "business as usual." As dozens of philosophers, from pre-Socratics to Stoics to Existentialists have counseled, prepare always for the worst. And so I do.