I have a Linn Basik Turntable with an Akito tonearm and Rega Exacta 2 cartridge. Would one expect a noticeable sonic difference when changing from a felt mat to a rubber and cork mat?
Chakster I was referring to you slagging off member Slaw.
Really, we’re discussing his product and not his personality, but you came here again with your pointless comment, buy his product if you like it. With the same success you can use a piece of paper between your platter and your record. I don’t believe soft mat can be effective in any way on any turntable. See below why i think so.
But no you chose to blithely ignore the true meaning of all of the posts directed towards you. Have a great day
Post must be addressed to the product and its properties, not to the members.
"The conventional turntable mat is made of soft material such rubber, in the belief that soft cushion will effectively filter out vibrations between the turntable and puck-up stylus.
***A lesson from an old tradition: In certain Buddhist ceremonies a bell or wood block is used which sits on a cushion. The cushion, being softer than the bell or wood block, does not prevent the instrument from ringing when it is struck. It merely damps the vibrations somewhat so that they are of shorter duration (that is, they decay faster) than in the case of bell or wood block suspended in the air. The record disc and turntable platter used in conjunction with a soft mat are in state resembling that of the bell or wood block on a cushion. As the stylus oscillates in the record groove, the disc having a certain elasticity, it caused to vibrate slightly. Depending on the size and other physical properties of the disc, these pulsations vary in frequency from 100Hz to 400Hz. If the turntable mat is softer than the record disc, it will deform along with the vibrations of the disc. The Sympathetic vibrations are of sufficient amplitude to cause an audible low resonance peculiar to record playing. Likewise the turntable platter, when a soft mat is used, vibrates sympathetically and contributes to the problem of low resonance.
***A classically simple solution: After two years of development, the audio engineers at SAEC have produced a completely new turntable mat which solves the problems of the conventional soft mat. The new SS-300 Solid Mat is of material harder than any record disc. Placed directly on the turntable platter, the Solid Mat by its mass and hardness cancels sympathetic vibration of the platter. Likewise a record disc in immediate contact with the Solid Mat is prevented from vibrating. Where as the conventional soft mat merely damps sympathetic vibrations, the Solid Mat reduces these vibrations by 10 to 15dB compared to the conventional mat, thus effectively eliminating the problem of low resonance.
***We did it our own way: This new component brings us an important step closer to the realizing a technical ideal of record-playing. For a record to be reproduced perfectly, the stylus and its cantilever must oscillate with no interference from vibrations of the other record-playing components. Thus not only the headshell and tonearm but also the turntable platter and record disc itself should be completely oscillating.
The famous SAEC tonearms with their patented Double Knife Edge design are the only tonearms made that have solved the problem of tonearm resonance. This was accomplished by radical departure from conventional approaches. Again with the SS-300 Solid Mat, SAEC has turned conventional wisdom on its head to solve the problem of record and turntable resonance.
*** Turntable Solid mat. Model SS-300: The holes is the mat are made not to cause resonance in the radiant direction on the plane of the turntable.
Aluminum alloy - using special surface treatment (rough surface). The solid mat is so shaped that may be used for many representative record players and turntables.
The resonance of a turntable itself (resonant sound from turntable), which could not be eliminated by the conventional type turntable mat made of soft material like rubber, is prevented by using the SS-300 solid mat, which creates a state of non-resonance through its interaction at its critical point.
The Solid Mat must be placed directly on the turntable platter. Do not use a soft mat between the Solid Mat and the turntable platter, since the Solid Mat will then be caused to resonate either independently of or jointly with the soft mat. Similarly do not place a soft mat between the Solid Mat and the record disc!
Under ordinary condition there will be no problem of slippage, since the SS-300 Solid Mat has a special nonslip surface.
-Do not place a stabilizer weight on the record disc, as this will deform the disc and reduce the effectiveness of the Solid Mat.
-Use reasonable care in placing record on the Solid Mat. Do not place/remove records while the turntable is rotation.
-Do not drop the Solid Mat, since any crack or deformation will reduce its effectiveness. "
P.S. For the same reason Micro Seiki engineers made CU-500 (2.7kg copper) mat for their best turntables, i will repeat again that solf/flexible mat is u-s-e-l-e-s-s. Let’s say truth about product, i have nothing against a person who produced soft mats, i just think it’s the worst material ever for the mat. Seems like the engineers of two Japanese companies (SAEC and MICRO SEIKI) share the same opinion and i trust them more than the DIYers.
There was a test in Japanese magazine and SAEC SS-300 was next best after Micro CU-500. Everyone who is serious about turntable mats should considering SAEC Solid Mat (870g) for audition.
A person I know used to have the tag line, "different is easy, better, not so much" I suspect this can apply to mats also.
I bought my third table second hand, its a base model Brinkmann Bardo, I put an Audiomods Series Six arm on it and an Ortofon A90.
Brinkmann has an upgrade for their table where they have an integrated glass fiber mat, the base model has an integrated acrylic mat. Previous owner included a carbon fiber mat from TTW in this purchase. I used the table with the mat in place, and it indeed did sound nice, but the sound was a bit restrained, and I was honestly thinking it was the Ortofon.
Well yesterday I did two things. I removed the carbon fiber mat in order to evaluate the table in pure stock form, which is what I should have done to start with. The sound was far more immediate and present. I then installed 4 magnetic lev feet, these happen to be the Ebay sourced ones, so nothing terribly expensive. Once the table was balanced, I went through music and the level of resolution and transparency took off. To be honest the sound exceeded my expectations of what I thought this combination would be capable of. The sound is absolutely captivating, this is supposed to be my casual listening table, but its come to point where it could be as good as anything I own.
Guess the point is that not every mat is an improvement, even an expensive high tech one.
Chakster I was referring to you slagging off member Slaw. Which you know full well but you decide to play dumb instead. Which you most definitely are not. But no you chose to blithely ignore the true meaning of all of the posts directed towards you. Have a great day
Chakster your an a$$ hole!!! I’ve been a member here over 15 years and only have 200 post and one of the reasons is I don’t want to deal with people like you. A lot of people prefer the Basic to the Axis. I own the Axis it makes wonderful music for its entry price.
Am i dealing with you anyhow ? Slaw turned this thread to advertising of his mat that he is selling, well ok. I just posted many different mats as an alternative to his DIY stuff. I posted ONLY mats that i bought and have been using myself for a long time, the latest was Sakura THE MAT.
What’s the deal ? I’m not dealing with you anyhow in anyway. But may i ask what is your useful information left on this forum in 15 years? Do you think your comment will help someone to find the right mat ?
This thread is about MATS (there are many) and not just one mat that slaw is selling, can you dig that ? Basic or Axis, personally i prefer Direct Drive and this is my opinion, yes.
The Linn Basik is NOT awful. Could you please try to open your mind up to those of us who are not "cost is no object" members!
My philosophy is quite opposite (i do not buy expensive stuff), i paid $1000 for my Luxman PD-444 and about $700 for Denon DP-80, no more than $1200 for Technics SP-10 mkII and every tonearm used on them are no more than $1500 max. My favorite cartridges are no more than $800 (most of them).
This is what you call "cost no object" ? You’re wrong!
For a $2500 turntable some nice $250 mat is quite reasonable, don’t you think so ? But i’m not selling Sakura Systems mats and i do not work for them (i live in Russia), i paid for Sakura The Mat myself (in fact i bought two of them) ! And even more for better mats like Micro and SAEC, highly recommended!
There were many reviews of the Basik/LVX table paired with a Shure V15 that declared it the best value in high end (for that time) audio. Even if the Basik was awful(NOT); the idea that a freakin mat could resolve all it’s IMAGINED faults is just bull SH!t. Repeat BULL $HIT!
Who said the mat will solve the weakness of belt drive turntable ? :)) But i can’t recommend BAD mat, no matter what turntables, please try to understand. $250 for a nice mat like Sakura The Mat is even cheaper than nearly same mat from Boston Audio with rave reviews online.
Freaking mat is this, it looks so funny that a 10 year old kid could cut it better, but it’s $49 DIY from Slaw (similar price for a nice original Japanese pressing LP that i would buy instead).
cut it out please! that’s just plain mean and vindictive especially as you have not even tried one. your personal thoughts are just that. shame on you!
I tried those Linn in local high-end shops long time ago, not impressed as with many similar belt drive turntables, what do you want me to say ? My opinion, yes. You’re free to post yours and i do not ask you to post what i like, but we like different things, so what ?
I never supported the idea to buy mediocre cartridge (for example) if the turntable is mediocre. I think it’s always good to upgrade stuff, no matter mat or cartridge, or tonearm, or turntable. In which order user can upgrade them doesn’t matter, what is important is final result in upgrade. So people can start with the mat, why not. Normally we upgrade everything after all, this is the nature of the hobby.
*************
P.S. Answering the OP’s question "Rubber, Felt or Cork?" i would say Gunmetal, Aluminum or Cabron Graphite!
Many years ago, I bought a Living Voice "Mystic Mat". Partially carbon fiber, foam, ceramic fabric. Paid $400 for it. It arrived in a zip-tie bag, with some type of oily substance on it. Oh yeah, it was not flat and had a protrusion on it’s diameter. My reason for bringing this up is, at that time, this mat was top of the line.
The Linn Basik is NOT awful. Could you please try to open your mind up to those of us who are not "cost is no object" members!
There were many reviews of the Basik/LVX table paired with a Shure V15 that declared it the best value in high end (for that time) audio.
Even if the Basik was awful(NOT); the idea that a freakin mat could resolve all it's IMAGINED faults is just bull SH!t. Repeat BULL $HIT!
I still enjoy my Basik with a Shure V15 RS with a Jico SAS stylus. It fits in very well in a small room with a Nakamichi Reciever 2 and PSB Imagine XBs (If only 'She Who Must Be Obeyed' would let me bring mt Bostn Acoustics T-830s back up from the basement!!!!) It sounds very respectable. The Mats only make VERY subtle differences.
I very rarely make such strong ststements; but in this case my actual experience gives me all the courage I need.
@chakster , I was a follower; but now I know that how ever limited my experience may be compared to others; my opinion is at least as valid, to me and probably to other readers.
Thanks for your interest in MyMat. I’ve temporarily taken the ad down. Should be back up soon. If you should have any questions in the mean time, please PM me.
Chakster! cut it out please! that's just plain mean and vindictive especially as you have not even tried one. your personal thoughts are just that. shame on you!
1) I can’t find the MyMat on US Audio Mart. A little help, please?
@2channel8 You’d better look HERE at the product Slaw is selling even after his listing has been removed. Does it looks like something anyone would buy even for $49 ? Up to you. I think soon we will see someone selling just a piece of paper for $50 claiming it's the best solution ever made.
2) isn’t it the height of insanity (or arrogance) to recommend that one spend $250 on a mat for a Linn Basik? That money surely could be better spent.
Linn Basik is an awful turntable, but Sakura Systems THE MAT is an excellent mat for $250 even for turntable that cost 20 times as much. Its predecessor Boston Audio Mat has been reviewed worldwide, actually with rave reviews. And it’s not a funny looking DIY product (badly cut with scissors) like the one above, it’s a serial product sold and shipped worldwide to many audiophiles. Ain’t cheap like almost everything in high-end. Manufacturing tour is here.
Read reviews if you want to know more Boston Audio Mat (latest official version is The Mat aka BA mk3):
1) I can't find the MyMat on US Audio Mart. A little help, please? 2) isn't it the height of insanity (or arrogance) to recommend that one spend $250 on a mat for a Linn Basik? That money surely could be better spent. 3) I have a Linn Basik in my "B" system. It came with the original felt mat which causer more ststic than anyting I ever used before. I tried a few different leather, cork and rubber mats and settled on a 'Simple Mat' similar to this one. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07G716NPQ?tag=duckduckgo-d-20&linkCode=osi&th=1&psc=1 It sounded better than the felt and it didn't stick to the LP every time I changed records. 4) In my main system I have an Oracle Alexandria MK III. It came with a felt mat that was soft on one side and harder on the other. I replaced it with a sorbothane Groove Isolater that I had from an older Alexandria; but by that time Oracle was recommending an acrylic mat, which they sold for $215 in 2016. I thought I'd try an inexpensive version I got on ebay before I committed that much. I liked it so much I got one for the Basik, as well. Now I use one on the Alex and simply add a Wasabi (Highly recommended as @cardani mentioned) when I'm playing an LP under 180 grams, so I don't have to adjust VTA every time. On The Basik I use an acrylic mat with the Simple Mat to soften things up a bit, as it fits that system's sound better.
5) The Basik does not have a very powerful motor. Don't use anything too heavy and Linn does NOT recommend clamps or weights for this reason.
Best of listening, and I am interested in your mat, @slaw, if I can find it
I fail to see how another lp ( or similar) product could be as effective as MyMat. It would require that at the very least the lp/mat and the lp playing be perfectly flat. That's hardly possible on a consistent basis. This is the first hurdle.
If you haven't yet read one of my customers' posts in Member's Reviews, do so. He used/uses a KAB polyglass mat and describes his experience with MyMats.
@atmasphere You are correct regarding the damping ability of vinyl due to its light weight. When I was experimenting per my post above, I recall leaving the rubber mat on the platter which effectively damped the ringing of the metal platter, then using a vinyl LP between the mat and LP I was playing after adjusting the tonearm height slightly.
Herbies sells these rubber dots, 2" in diameter and a thickness of maybe 3 or 4 sheets of paper (so very thin), and seems to be made out of cloth impregnated neoprene that has very effective damping characteristics. I suggested he make a turntable mat out of this stuff but never heard back. I thought it might work well on my Linn in place of the felt mat.
So atmasphere, the obvious question for us non-scientists. What
material(s) have the same, or very similar, hardness as a typical vinyl
LP?
I'm not a fan of acrylic, but it can be made to have a similar hardness as vinyl. An LP would do nicely but does not have damping ability owing to its mass. I've thought a great deal about building a mat that has an aluminum or stainless substrate imbedded in the vinyl, as a means of stiffening it and making the whole thing more dead.
I’m using a Herbie’s Way Excellent Mat on my Rega P8. It’s thin, doesn’t rob the sound, looks great, and couples well with LPs. It’s fairly cheap ($59.99) and is actually made near my home in South Texas. I find it much better than the OEM Felt or cork mats. One plus is I don’t get a lot of static electricity from it and it doesn’t stick to records when changing or flipping sides.
It has one feature that seems troublesome but turns out isn’t. Dirt from the LP sticks to the mat surface. My records are clean... but the mat will attract dirt you didn’t know was there.
To clean it I use tape. Sometimes a loop around my fingers that I dab on visible dust and about once a month I cover the entire mat with clear shipping tape. It’s overlapped strip over strip so all the tape comes off in one piece and any dirt stuck to the mat is picked up and trapped in the tape.
VPI’s used to make platters with a top layer of Delrin. The Aries 1, TNT-3, and TNT-4 had 3/8" of Delrin over 7/8" lead-lined aluminum, the TNT-5 7/8" Delrin over 5/8" stainless steel.
Delrin if you’re obsessed with matching to vinyl. TTW used to make them. Colby Lamb can make them. And if you read other posts, what could match the hardness of a vinyl LP better than another LP? At least two others have mentioned that.
There are acrylic mats for sure, not sure if any thing made that is same composition as a modern vinyl record though. Bar another vinyl record of course.
What material(s) have the same, or very similar, hardness as a typical vinyl LP?
To my mind the obvious place to start would be similar to Noromance and myself have already done. An album, be it a vinyl 10" or a shellac 78 as a mat. Well worth a trial IMHO.
Here are the mechanical requirements for a good mat: It must have the same hardness (durometer) as the LP, so vibration from the LP can be absorbed (without reflection) and converted to heat. To this end it will affect tonality if too hard or too soft.
It must support the LP properly, at the vinyl depresses at the location of the stylus where the pressure is extreme.
It should also be effective at damping the platter! When the stylus tracks the groove, the vinyl can 'talk back' which is why it has to be controlled. But the platter can editorialize too, due to room-borne vibration. It has to be dead.
If the platter pad is working correctly, you may notice that with the volume off the stylus tracking in the groove is silent.
This is a lot to do- but the results of this are obvious- a properly designed platter pad can cause a cheap turntable to have better tonality than an expensive one. The platter pad is a critical part of LP playback!
@uberwaltz I posted this on my Virtual System "Added a black aluminum 20mm oversized platter to the slate plinth 401. Beautifully made. I did some listening tests before and after swapping out on a number of tracks (after all the tubes were warmed up for an hour.) Definite increase in bass control. I’ve been having some issues with a little bloom in the low end which have been tamed. Color, speed and focus -especially in the mid bass- is improved by a considerable margin. The sound stage narrowed a little for the first few tracks but seemed to be result of improved focus and increased stability of image placement. An upgrade, at around $750 inc s/h that puts a smile on the face.".
NOTE - the soundstage narrowing comment above is moot. The effect disappeared the next day while focus remained fine.
Would you consider the PAC oversized platter an essential upgrade for the 401? Mine has stock platter on it still. What would you say it brought to the table.( Sic). Thanks
I took an old record, and cut it down to a 10” circle. Peeled off the labels and sanded the grooves down. Made it for a friend who has a Dual 1019. He was using a cork platter he had cut down himself. Apparently works well, with improved dynamics.
Good luck joscow, dont be scared to run the VTF under the cartridges recommended weight, I think Axis sounds good running light sometimes. If you want run it light and increase gain cant hurt to try. Just have fun you have a nice table.
Sorry for the delay slaw. Ideally you want the record pinned to the mat over it's entire surface. Vacuum is the best but complicated. Next is the reflex clamp which I believe was first used by Walker. SME and Kuzma have followed suit. Having a SOTA and an SME I have experience with both systems. The reflex clamp uses a thin washer at the spindle under the record and contacts the record only at the edge of the label. This flexes the record down into the mat and removes minor irregularities. Vacuum will remove more pronounced irregularities. If you store your records correctly you will never have more than minor irregularities unless you buy used records that were stored poorly then I would definitely go for a vacuum table. What is the effect? Minor but obvious. I think it is because there is some movement of the record in the upper bass and changes in speed and VTA. The music sound more as if it is coming from a tape machine. With a good system the music hovers in air. This effect is improved by these hold down devices. As long as the mat is firm and acoustically inert any material will do. I would never buy a table without vacuum or a reflex clamp. IMHO SME has the best reflex clamp. I have not used a Kuzma.
It simply is one of the few mats I had to make some comparisons. Certainly, the OP should try other mats. Nowhere did I suggest that more expensive mats like the gunmetal suggested by Chakster would be inferior or not options. Thanks.
joscow if this table is new to you and don't know how old belt, mat and bearing oil is change it all out buying from a reputable Linn dealer and not eBay. Should be less than $100. Then download a protractor from vinyl engine 50hz/211mm protractor or protractor made for Linn arms bring it to a print shop and have them print to scale. I also have a Linn basic LVX tonearm I have paired with Axis which is not as good as your Akito. With fresh oil,mat, belt and set up properly I was really shocked what $100 in parts and a little time setting up the table properly how good the old Axis with basic tonearm can sound. A lot cheaper than buying a stack of mats that may not even sound right.
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