I have to say, this thread has been a good learning experience for me. Other than changing my phono cartridge now and then and doing basic maintainence on my tt, such as belt change and bearing lube, I have just listened to my records on occasion. Over the years I set my platter speed by the supplied strobodisc and flourescent light and called it good. But over this past month here is what I have learned. First, I learned that my speed was low by a couple of percent. I was able to dial in my speed exact by using the 3150Hz test tone on an old test record that I had and the iPhone app. That app is a very useful tool. Interestingly, with the speed dialed in dead on now, the strobodisc still shows a stable pattern. So the strobodisc/flourescent light method is not very accurate, ie. >2%. Second, not only has the rhythm and timing of the music changed, but the bass is tighter, the attack stronger. I noticed this playing a couple of old records that I have listened to many times over the years. The timing was so different from what I was used to that I had to go back and double check the speed setting again. Now I have to listen to all of my records all over again at the correct speed. Good thing I am still young. I conclude based on what I have learned that speed setting is as at least as important as speed control. In fact, I am wondering now if the differences heard with respect to rhythm and timing are really based on the speed setting of a tt more than Wow and Flutter- ie. if Wow and Flutter are less than 0.03% or so.
Turntable speed accuracy
There is another thread (about the NVS table) which has a subordinate discussion about turntable speed accuracy and different methods of checking. Some suggest using the Timeline laser, others use a strobe disk.
I assume everyone agrees that speed accuracy is of utmost importance. What is the best way to verify results? What is the most speed-accurate drive method? And is speed accuracy really the most important consideration for proper turntable design or are there some compromises with certain drive types that make others still viable?
I assume everyone agrees that speed accuracy is of utmost importance. What is the best way to verify results? What is the most speed-accurate drive method? And is speed accuracy really the most important consideration for proper turntable design or are there some compromises with certain drive types that make others still viable?
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Dear Dev: Seems to me that a high cost not only in a TT bearing has to see not only with its design and tolerance level but with the quantity you ordered and obviously marketing. If that same item is builded in 10,000 pzs. instead 50 you will see the big big difference in price. During our " long " tonearm design time we learnedd many things about and if you can and with some items/parts sometimes is better to build it at home by your self. Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Atmasphere - I think you are too optimistic on the quality of the US power supply. The US grid is split into 4 quadrants and the supply agreements in place with the power providers have delivery standards etc, but there are NO standards in the agreements on frequency stability. As you will know frequency will vary with load fluctuations on the grid. I have seen figures of 60hz with an accuracy of 5%. This issue is currently being investigated. Frequency variation does occur but happens over a period of hours rather than seconds, at least, that's what they teach you in school. You may well be right- every time I have checked the speed with a strobe, its spot on, but that probably does not mean a lot as the strobe relies on the line frequency. So all it does say is that the 'table is spot-on relative to the frequency on the AC line. The Speed-Nic thingy says its OK, but IME it does not have a lot of resolution... |
Got a Brinkmann Bardo in to test drive and upon first listen the pitch of the piano was off, attacks were not sharp, so checking the speed with the Timeline showed it running a tad slow. It's easy to adjust and within 3 minutes had it spot on. This is how a turntable should be, doesn't seem that hard to get it right. (Dealer disclaimer but not a dealer for Brinkmann..........yet!) |
The KAB strobe disc is an approximation - a good one, though - and that can be easily proven... I place it on top of a test record, lower the cartridge (to include stylus drag) then set the speed with it. Then, using a very accurate voltage and frequency meter like a Fluke, I put on a 1kHz tone on the CD player and measure the frequency - dead on 1kHz; this measures the instrument's accuracy. Switch back to the test LP with a 1kHz tone at 33.33rpm and the meter shows (naturally) some variations of about 1/1000, but clearly the center frequency isn't 1000 Hz. I usually have to lower the speed (in this case a VPI SDS). Then I switch the speed to 45rpm and the meter should now read 1350Hz - yeap it does. The KAB shows I am going slow, but I know my speed is accurate. I think the Timeline would be just as accurate, but why spend $900 when I can just measure a test frequency. |
Ack, I think your approach is a good one. Find independent ways to measure tt speed and compare them. But I think it is "dangerous" in the logic sense to assume that your particular alternative method is the gold standard. It's more data of a different sort, but we don't know whether it's superior to other methods. Timeline is $400, not $900, BTW. The price is high at $400 but would be truly ridiculous at $900. Hiho, Super Bowl is over, stuffed myself on chili and beer and corn bread. The lowly Redskins (my local team) beat the new SB Champs twice this year. Strange, indeed. |
Sorry about the price quote on the Timeline - I got it from http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue43/sutherland_timeline.htm No one talked about anything being the gold standard. It's my approach, and the one I am comfortable with - and confirmed by ear, by switching between a test CD and a test LP using the same test tone at the same reference output level (after the latter having been set by measuring output voltage and adjusting the DAC's output - a Berkeley Alpha in this case). In the end, if it measures the same and sounds the same, it's highly likely the approach is sound. But others can doubt it and the accuracy of the test tone all they want. |
Hi Dev I have been trying to send you an email to solicit some advice from you on MBL 101 speakers and amps given your extensive posts on this topic, but I am having trouble with my audiogon account. Audiogon is looking into it Can you email me at dhankhar.ajay@yahoo.com so I can get your advice on a few questions? i would really appreciate it thanks a lot ajay |
After all the hoopla about the NVS, that was deleted, this is the update from Albert Porter, who is an authorised seller. "Perhaps you forgot, that table was the one damaged in shipping. So in addition to the inferior wooden arm boards, it's bearing was not functioning 100%. Pretty easy for the new one to defeat it." Isn't it amazing, that after all the proprietory study into energy control, better than any other tt made, they suddenly realise the wooden arm board is not a good idea. Makes you wonder. |
Who ever suggested the NVS was better than any other tt was just full of hype, just more marketing blah! blah! What I can't figure out is how does a table that list for $25k just a short while ago then jump up to $40 and now $45 or what ever. That new wooden shipping crate must have added some serious sonics, possibly no more bent platter bearing :-) Who in thier right mind designs and manufactures a table costing this much and then ships it with the platter attached, makes no sence. I may have missed but has there been any mention of any owners using the TimeLine on it and the results. Albert P, we know you have one so what are the results. |
Dover, In all fairness the stainless steel arm board seems a logical upgrade. I think the hugely (is that a word?) larger format of the new NVS required a more rigid arm board material. The original NVS could not accept 12" arms, at least not SME or other that require a large footprint. Changing the "format' of the tonearm mount required the factory to rethink the mounting material to something more rigid than wood. I'm not criticizing your post, the change was indeed made by the NVS people. I'm just saying that sometimes a redesign to accommodate a new arm length requires a rethink of material design to maintain stability. |
Albert - I love more new tt's coming to the market. It just seems the hyperbole doesn't match the performance. In this case the claims made for energy dissipation in the design seemed at odds with using wooden arms and armboards. I'm not sure stainless is that great either, but as you will have experienced most arms have resonances and different armboard materials will sound different and either add to or subtract complementary resonances. Most often ignored in these forums is that the turntable/arm/cartridge form one system and ideally the 3 components must have a common purpose in structural design - either dissipate energy or sink it to ground. Turntable, Cartridge or tonearm comparisons should always be referenced or qualified by the other 2 components but seldom are. Back to the NVS, the optimum arm board material will vary depending on the material used in the arm/arm mount and the material used in the NVS frame to ensure minimal energy is reflected back to the cartridge/record interface at each junction. |
Perhaps the silence is telling us somethingIt may well be? Whilst we have heard anecdotal evidence that some belt-drive turntables......for instance the big Micro Seikis....can maintain consistent accurate speed according to the Timeline.......I have never seen any visual evidence (via YouTube?) of this? If anyone can post a clip of ANY belt-drive TT able to do this with cartridge playing and not playing......it would put to bed any doubts? |
Lespier, I run the Final Audio Parthenon ( heavy patter/thread drive/AC motor with reconstructed sine/cosine wave power supply ). Just waiting for the 1st shipment of Timelines to arrive in New Zealand. I'm not losing any sleep, my references for speed accuracy -KAB,Test Record, solo piano stability of notes, and using Digital Sources as a comparison are fairly comprehensive. Oh and forgot I have Technics SP10 Mk3 for comparison as well ( Still not losing sleep ). |
Dover, Good post, I agree there are many, many variables in this game of making a turntable, arm and cartridge right. The other variable is personal taste. I certainly have my prejudices. Lespier
We had some very interesting things show up with our Timeline tests. I've read all the arguments about the Timeline only showing "that" one single revolution, and not what happens to the speed in between. I get it, but if the laser is moving steadily along the wall in one direction and consistently it seems obvious that speed variation is a fact. An even more bizarre thing happened some weeks ago during a test with the laser splashing on a wall about 18 feet away. Anyone interested in duplicating what we did would be welcome. Just play an LP with fairly benign (soft) passage and note the laser position on the wall. As the needle begins to enter the more difficult and complex musical passages note not only the position of the laser but it's actual "length" as it paints the light. It finally occurred to us after some time what (I think) was happening. Would love to read reports from others including your conclusion if you do this experiment. |
Albert I'm guessing either the laser mark with the platter having slowed would take longer to traverse a section of wall (unlikely to have slowed enough to make a visible difference IMHO) or perhaps a high frequency flutter is causing the mark to appear longer.... very interesting anyway. Dover I should add that I have so far only used belt drive and a Garrad idler(which to me sounds less speed stable than my belt drive...something wrong with it???). I'm starting to buy the argument for dd though so I may well travel down that path soon. |
Halcro, I assumed the same thing you did and heard the result as reduced dynamics and slurring. Funny you detected the same phenomenon. I agree, Ron has a winner, http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue58/awards2011.htm Scroll almost to the bottom. I gave Ron Product of The Year for the Timeline. I'm pretty sure I stirred up some of this when I began posting results of my own tests last year. The Timeline may not be a "perfect" product but it sure reveals errors that a printed disc and strobe miss. I would go so far as to suggest the Timeline supports things we hear and previously could not prove. |
Dear Halcro: No doubt Timeline is a great tool for now. I think that the main subject around it is not only that we learn more about our each one TTs and its right set up but that today TT designers use the Timeline ( or similar tool. ) as a important part on its design and development of a TT. That we can know that this or that TT has a " failure " about can't help enough, what can help to each one of us as customers is that today and future TT designs could come with the Timeline " certification ". At the end that " certification " is or should be IMHO a TT's designer target not ours. Btw, Halcro the stock MS TTs are not good enough about speed and speed stability, its motor controler are deficient about . Years ago in my unit and other units we have to make changes in there to improve this TT main desirable characteristic. IMHO and with today standards MS units are only an average ones. Anyway, Timeline is here to stay: good. Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
If the laser light stays in exactly the same place on the wall as the platter rotates but the "line" created by the laser beam gets longer, then it is at least possible that the tt is momentarily gaining speed above 33 rpm (assuming the flash of the laser is of constant duration, which is a fair assumption). But the fact that the light does not move left or right indicates that "average" speed is maintained. This is one explanation that comes to my mind; I have no idea what you are thinking, Albert and Henry. I would be interested to know. It seems to me if the tt slows down momentarily, the laser spot would shrink, not lengthen. Albert, I take all your points in support of the NVS, but the bottom line is what do you think of it in action? Does it blow away your SP10 Mk3? |
If it were not for the fact that my neighbor, for whom I have done a lot of audio favors, owns a Timeline, I never would have been able to test my turntables with it. No way I would pay $400 to buy one. I was quite satisfied with the KAB strobe. That's just an honest statement of my position, right or wrong. It was mostly a morbid curiosity that drew me to it, like a moth to a flame. Now I'm done with it, since I am unlikely to purchase another turntable in my lifetime. (Well, maybe one more that I have in the back of my mind.) It won't sit down on the Lenco spindle, which is one of the large diameter types. Any ideas how to use it on a Lenco? Interestingly, the owner of the Timeline is in no rush to have it back, so it's just sitting here. I guess I could have rationalized buying one on the premise that it would pretty much hold its value when I would have been ready to dump it. |
Dear Dover, I think it was posts like your last one that got the NVS thread deleted. You have a perfect right to express your opinion, but I think we need to temper our remarks about specific products and manufacturers lest someone pull the plug on this thread, too. I hate that this is the case, and, believe me, I am on the side of free speech. |
It seems to me if the tt slows down momentarily, the laser spot would shrink, not lengthen. The laser line lengthens and shortens and the line progresses clockwise (indicating + speed error) in the test I did. We have checked multiple turntables. The MK3 did not show any error in any test. |
I should add to my last post. No, the NVS does not blow away the MK3. I'm trying to remain neutral, there are already hot comments flying around on this topic and I don't understand why. If a particular table is doing well for you, why take the effort to crush another brand? Something that another person may be enjoying and thinks is wonderful? I'll state this, the MK3 is still my overall favorite turntable of all time, regardless. Now that I've said that, remember the MK3 have not been manufactured in more than a quarter of a century and at least one part in it has no current replacement available. If that parts fails and you cannot find used, the table is dead. So in spite of my fondness of the MK3, it is expensive, difficult to obtain and requires a COMPLETE rebuild and (in my opinion) one of our specialty plinths to get the performance I'm speaking of. Just putting things into perspective on both sides. |
Hi Albert, thanks for the neutral responce. It was Mike L's posting suggesting this NVS table was all this and that as you know dumping other tables that he had. Here is just one posting http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vaslt&1036349020&openflup&2334&4#2334 So when using the TimeLine on the NVS what are the results? |
Dear Albert, I guess I misunderstood your riddle. I thought you wanted to have an explanation for a theoretical condition where the laser beam appears to lengthen whilst remaining fixed in its location on the wall. My explanation would fit that condition, I think. I had the same result as you report with Timeline vs Mk3. (As you know, my Mk3 was purchased NOS and then completely serviced by Bill Thalmann.) Could not make it show any error whatsoever. I realized after I wrote the post that I may have put you on the spot in asking so directly for your opinion about Mk3 vs NVS, because of your potential commercial interests. I apologize for that. In any case, you were kind enough to respond. |
Lewm, I guess I misunderstood your riddle. I thought you wanted to have an explanation for a theoretical condition where the laser beam appears to lengthen whilst remaining fixed in its location on the wall. My explanation would fit that condition, I think. I wanted to read reports from others that experimented with Timeline to determine if my test was unusual. Appears you got similar results with at least some of the turntables you tested and I appreciate your input. Your conclusion about belt slippage seems accurate and in any case, indicates potential speed error (regardless of design). I had the same result as you report with Timeline vs Mk3. (As you know, my Mk3 was purchased NOS and then completely serviced by Bill Thalmann.) Could not make it show any error whatsoever. I too got zero errors on every test with MK3 and of course, I use Bill Thalmann for my rebuild. Anyone that asks about rebuild job on a MK2 or MK3, I always send them to Bill. I realized after I wrote the post that I may have put you on the spot in asking so directly for your opinion about Mk3 vs NVS, because of your potential commercial interests. I apologize for that. In any case, you were kind enough to respond. You did not put me on the spot any more than other posts at Audiogon. I also receive plenty of email requests for an opinion on these but I wonder (other than you and I) how many people actually own a fully and properly serviced MK3? Don't forget that Mike Lavigne is in love with his NVS and there are very few systems at Audiogon that are equal to his in effort, detail and quality. Mike had a Rockport, a table that could be called best of the best, although I never had one to compare. Mike has no commercial interest in NVS, he does not sell them or represent them. Sure, he's friends with Jonathan Tinn, but many people consider Jonathan a friend, including myself. There are going to be differences in opinion on some things. I'm trying to be honest but with a firm grip on reality. Most people want new, reliable product with warranty and support. The NVS fits that description and I imagine will have many satisfied customers. Others will persue Micro Seiki, Pioneer Exclusive, Technics or other golden audio era products. The argeument over this will never end. |
Hi Albert, I heard that you are looking to sell your NVS; are you going to still be planning to continue as a dealer for NVS and JTinn? Mike L mentioned to me last year that he paid the same for his NVS as you did for yours...was your price around the $12k, or so, that JTinn was selling the NVS for earlier last year? Cheers! Alan |
There are some very respected bloggers on these pages that really try to be informative & give honest assessments of what they are trying to achieve or review. They form their opinions on facts & how components work in their systems or their close friends systems. They form their opinions on their personal experience & living with the component for a extended period of time. I respect someone who goes to these lengths. But what irks the hell out of me is the few who love to run their mouths in a very negative way when they have absolutely NO grounds to do so about a particular product. AKA the NVS! If you don't know what is going on you should keep your mouth shut & learn what the facts are. Or buy one & form your own opinion! I do understand personal preferences on sound & how products fit our systems & respect each & everyone's opinion.. well maybe not everyone's! Some products are a good fit for us & some not ( in the scheme of our systems ). We all shoot for a sound that appeals to us. This does not make a product bad. But in order to voice a opinion that is justified & has credence to their remarks... #1. Have they had personal experience with a certain product to voice such a strong negative opinion? #2. Have they used the product in their OWN system to form their opinion. #3. Have they done A/B comparisons to form their opinion. On the NVS, Yes, I do own it & love it. I have owned a good number of Turntables / arms over the years. Some even mentioned in this thread. I have followed the NVS since it's inception, even before when it was in the planning stages. I was kept abreast on it's development from the start & even was asked my opinion on some of the design features. Yes, I'm friends with Mr. Tinn & no, I do not have a investment with him either. Just a crazy audiophile for the last 40 years. The fact that it was going to be a DD table, sold me, as this was the direction I wanted to stay on since my first experience with DD. I prefer them. No one ever said the price was $25K to start... rumors... No one ( to my knowledge ) ever stated it was better than any other TT. To me nothing is the best. Let's just say this table is damn good & can hold it's own against some of the so called best. IMHO of course. There are many many great tables & we all have a passion for them otherwise we wouldn't be sharing our experiences. With a lot of new products that come to market, improvements are made, this is nothing new. I for one, am glad designers do not sit on their hands & say that's it I'm done, I can't do no better. This table was designed to be a plug & play, that is why it is being shipped completely assembled..... this is nothing new as well, so let's no harp on that. There were issues with a couple of units shipping wise, thus the change to a less handled crate. Congrats on seeing a problem & correcting it. Believe me the original packing was no slouch. Please,,,,, let's get our facts straight & not spread a handful of bs rumors. Go listen for yourself, & form your own opinion & not use someone else's misaligned view. Enjoy the music. |
Grr6001 - No one ( to my knowledge ) ever stated it was better than any other TT. Jonathan Tinn had stated in his system ( which now seems to have disappeared) : "The Wave Kinetics NVS Direct Drive Turntable is absolutely in a league of it's own. Having a great deal of experience with the likes of the Rockport Sirius III, Continuum, SME 30, Forsell Reference, Grand Prix Audio Monaco, VPI HRX, Nottingham Hyperspace, Basis Debut, Lodo Audio The Beat, Kuzma Stabi XL, Vyger Indian Signature, Walker Proscenium and many others, this turntable is truly unique. It is immediately noticeable. " There was no declaration of commercial interest. However it is time to move on. |
Unoear, Regarding: I heard that you are looking to sell your NVS; are you going to still be planning to continue as a dealer for NVS and JTinn? In this economy I'm not sure it matters. If you have interest in the NVS I'm sure I can get one. Yes, I have been trying to sell a NVS, the one I have and/or another from stock. In fact I would love to sell about six of them if you know any interested parties. I just purchased a new car, spent more than I should have, but all of them seem to be too much these days. The warranty on my old car was expiring and it was sink or swim. Maybe cash flow is not an issue for you, it is for me. I still have a kid in college and my wife lost her job. Mike L mentioned to me last year that he paid the same for his NVS as you did for yours...was your price around the $12k, or so, that JTinn was selling the NVS for earlier last year? I speak to Mike Lavigne occasionally, he is always busy because he has about a hundred employees he has to deal with. Frankly I don't see how he does it. As for price, I have no idea what Mike paid, I never ask. The price for the NVS that I have, large halo and all the other upgrades is (and has been) always $45K as far as I know. Not to be snooty with you, but if I owned a DD Rockport I would not give the slightest damn what anyone else had. I would just spin it and listen to some LPs. |
Wow! Seems to me a few here have another agenda to try to discredit or devalue what I feel is one of the best turntables to hit the market in a very long time. It's to bad some have to stoop to these childish levels. This table,,, The Wave Kinetics NVS, properly set up..... in many ways equals my reference reel to reel tapes. I know I'm not alone in this assessment> |
Dear Raul, It is rather strange that the ability to maintain accurate and consistent speed for a turntable whilst playing records.......appears to be the hardest feat (for most of them) to achieve? I would have thought that this is the primary (sine qua non) quality and function of a turntable? Perhaps your idea of Manufacturers selling turntables with a 'Timeline Certification' could sort the chaff from the wheat?.......but are there ANY manufacturers of current turntables able (or prepared) to do this? I think in the end.....it is up to each user. Caveat Emptor? Regards H |
Grr6001, Someone did indeed imply that the NVS is the best and he compared it to Rockport, Walker, SME 30 and many others. It was JTinn on his website. I also read that MLavigne thinks his NVS, Telos and Anna cartridge are the best he's ever heard. These seem to be absolute statements or at least the strong opinions of these two members of Audiogon. I agree with you that if one hasn't heard it, he shouldn't have an opinion, but many of us certainly do. It's a part of these forums for better or for worse. As this is a thread about turntable speed accuracy, I'm curios to know if Albert or anyone has tested the NVS with a TimeLIne? |
Albert and Lew, You don't specifically mention it......but I assume the SP10-3 maintained its speed with and without the cartridge tracking the groove? Also Albert......you don't specifically mention if the NVS passed the Timeline test with equal aplomb? Lew....have you tested the Kenwood L07-D with the Timeline? Even if you don't have a tonearm mounted....it would be interesting to know? Also.....I have seen almost nothing regarding the speed stability of Idler Decks vis-a-vis the Timeline? Will the Timeline not sit on the Idler spindle at all?......even if it doesn't sit all the way down, can't you manage to somehow 'wedge' it on? |
Peterayer, I stand corrected on the fact that some including JT implied that the NVS is the best. It is what they feel as they have done the testing & comparisons to other TT's. I do happen to agree with them & feel the same. I also have done my comparisons. I just don't like to personally put the best tag on anything. JT, Mike, & a few others, I respect their opinions as they do know what great systems & components sound like. They also navigate to the style / sound I prefer as well. I also understand that everyone is entitled to their opinions, even if they haven't heard it. Yes, it's part of the forums.... sometimes not for the betterment of the hobby. I just expressed my opinion that they should keep their negative remarks to themselves, since they do not know what they are talking about, & some just have another agenda. It's fine to agree & disagree, but we need to have a solid basis / foundation in which to form our selective opinions. |
Peter's post harkens me back to a question I asked JTinn on the other thread: How does the NVS maintain correct speed? What I mean is, does it use servo feedback mechanism or some other strategy? I never got a response to that question, and the information is not clearly given on the NVS website. No problem if JTinn wants to keep a trade secret. Same question goes for The Beat DD turntable; Steve Dobbins writes that he did not use a servo because of the "hunting" issue with servos. (This paradigm says that the platter is constantly being jerked around by the servo, at a micro level, because the servo constantly is reacting after the fact to minute variations in speed. Those who don't prefer DD turntables often allude to this phenomenon and say they can "hear" it happening.) I think The Beat uses some sort of viscous drag on the bearing and a 3-phase AC synchronous motor that works against the constant drag force to maintain speed without benefit of a servo. (But my Denon DP80 uses a 3-phase AC synchronous motor too yet takes feedback from the read-out of platter speed effected at the rim of the platter by a sensor and somehow incorporates a quartz-linked servo in the process.) The options are many and complex and somewhat interesting as they bear on what we ultimately hear. Bill Thalmann, a guy I respect who actually can figure out these circuits tells me the Denon one is quite advanced, even for today. |
From Peterayer As this is a thread about turntable speed accuracy, I'm curios to know if Albert or anyone has tested the NVS with a TimeLIne? From Dev So when using the TimeLine on the NVS what are the results? From Halcro Albert and Lew, So far, only the Technics MK3 passed of all the tables I've checked. The laser is absolutely steady state on precisely the same spot without LP. Repeat again, cartridge in the groove and heavily modulated material (Massive Attack, Heligoland) and still on the same spot. In fact, the MK3 can play the same LP (either 33 or 45) two or three times, all the way through, picking up the arm and re cuing to the beginning multiple times. Same spot on the wall in the end. We used Scotch painters tape on the wall to be sure we don't mistake where the laser is supposed to be. The NVS did not pass the test. However, neither has any other table so far. Either the MK3 is highly accurate, or whatever it's errors, it's in precise conjunction and sync with the Timeline. Halcro mentioned rim drive. I've posted my opinion before on this, apologies in advance to those that have read it. Each design has strengths, perhaps a diagram should be made up so you could view what each contributes to the sound. Mind you, this is opinion ! I do not have scientific data. It's much like my support for aftermarket power cables here at Audiogon in 1999. I got in trouble for that too :^), although that seems to be more flame proof as time goes on. OK, what we want in a turntable: (1) Enough torque that it ABSOLUTELY rocks through the material without even a microscopic slow down. (2) Consistent speed, preferably perfect but not a deal killer if "slightly" and consistently fast or slow. (3) Freedom from speed error. Wow and Flutter. This stuff matters a lot, we pick this up. (4) Last and obvious, freedom from all noise, both mechanical and electrical. Probably other things or variations of these but you get the idea. What each design does: BELT DRIVE: Typically poor on #1, some are good on #2, varies on #3 by brand and condition of parts. Typically great on #4 due to separation of motor from platter, although some can have noisy bearings. RIM or IDLER DRIVE: Many are excellent on #1, typically good on #2, varies on #3 (some not so hot), dependant on model and parts condition. Typically less than ideal on #4, motor in direct contact which is difficult to keep absolutely silent. DIRECT DRIVE: Varies on #1 depending on power of motor and design of system, from near perfection to bland. Typically excellent on #2. Typically good on #3 with some models approaching perfection. Good to near perfect on #4 depending on model and condition. What I've discovered about myself and from long term listening is I fall distinctly into the "high torque" consistent speed category. That means my favorite sound is a high torque direct drive with idler right behind. A low torque direct drive is next and belt drive last. Of course my comments are easy targets. For instance, a well tuned Micro Seiki has more torque than other typical belt drives. Error number two, some direct drives have electronic noise leaking through their platters which make them sound "cold" or what some describe as jitter. Electronic noise can be really bad as it "flashes" the cartridge. My statements are GENERALITIES that are ripe for picking, it's complicated but this is a very rough start and only a simplistic attempt to explain why turntable designs "tend" to sound a certain way. I know all the holes that can be poked in this, discussion of arms, set up and such. I'm just saying that these rough rules for turntables are like clumping horn speakers, cone speakers and electrostatics into categories to explain why they behave a certain way. |
Hi Albert, thanks for the responce inrelation to the NVS using the TimeLine. It's great you are providing other info. too but as you mention it's your take, prefference and obviously VERY subjective. I have heard two SP10 MK3's to date now in my own set-up and over all preffered specific belt drive tables, "all belt drives aren't buit equal" in comparison but that's for another thread. |
