Walk-in soundstage

I've had that experience with my Marten Parker Duos that Steve Huff just reviewed; I've had mine for several years and I concur with him based on my experience (I enjoy his reviews). Those are driven by an MSB S-200 power amp with a Herron Audio tube line stage, a Herron Audio phono stage, and a Holo May DAC.

And some good cannabis is always a help, too! 

Have this in my HT room, it feel like you can feel the raindrop when it's raining, things are 3D positioned in the room. Door knocks always tip my dog out. However, it has 13 different speakers all over the room. Think it would be almost impossible to get this with 2 speakers alone. 

I heard it at a friend's house years ago.  He had a nicely-proportioned room with minimal treatment, a pair of Nesterovich speakers and 40 watt tube monoblocks he built himself.  The Nesties were placed almost at the halfway point of the room.  The soundstage behind them was very realistic.

My venerable ProAc Response 2's will do it, and did do it in my old house, which had a long-ish living room with low ceilings.  But my current space is smaller and doesn't let them open up the way they did back then. :-(

I think it's mostly about speakers and the room, though components that excel in imaging will certainly help.

@newbee I had the same experience with the same recording (specifically the track "Tiden Bara Gar").  It was in 1981 at Lyric Hi Fi in White Plains, NY, and I was choosing between Mission 770's and DCM Time Windows.  The DCM smeared the image and the resonances from the cabinet made the music sound boxy and muddy, but the Mission threw an image of the acoustic bass some 7' behind the speakers, with the other instruments interspersed within a wide, deep soundstage.  I bought the speakers, and the record, and was unable to recreate that feeling until recently with my purchase of Martin Logan ESL speakers, a Parasound A23+ amp and Schiit Kara pre.

I also experienced that bubble of sound at a local dealer.  It was a fairly large listening area definitely longer than my room and slightly wider.  No noticeable treatment but perhaps built in.  My listening room is 19’x26’x10’.  I went in to purchase a Bluesound node a few years ago and for whatever reason he let me listen to their dCS Vivaldi stack, Boulder stereo amp, and Wilson Alexia V.  All I can say is it was incredible but perhaps too good if that makes sense.  It took me awhile to re-appreciate my meager system.

What I think is likely different about the way I did it and the way it was done for you @lanx0003 is that this is Not the kind of thing that collapses as soon as your head drifts out of a narrowly designed sweet spot. In fact it's the kind of walk-through stage that you can effectively 'walk through'. When I walk to the front wall and turn around I can see the same soundstage that I do when I'm in the listening seat. Never once does it roll off, fold, evaporate or collapse. From anywhere in the room.

My system is quite laid back, however. That means the more forward the center image is recorded in the mix, the more it will tend to follow your head as you move laterally to the side from the listening chair. But that's already a known effect of laid-back setups.

Is the way I did it here the ultimate in the walk-through effect? I'm thinking probably no, surely there exists somewhere a setup that beats it, it's just that I haven't run across it myself yet. But, I'm thinking there might be more than one way to achieve the effect.

I guess I can think of one system I have heard like his. It was a completely optimized Wilson Chronosonic something and Rowland system. Today I am sure Burmeister / dCS / Wilson will do this. The sitting position was actually about three feet in the air on a platform. The soundstage was so holographic and deep that you could literally hear images as spheres at different depths. The physical depth from the listeners position to the front wall was probably twenty feet. Images would start five feet or so in front of the you and extend three or four feet deep (high and wide as well). Different instruments, different sizes. The kick drums and like were at or in the front wall far behind the speakers. I got to spend a couple hours with it. The cost was around 3/4 million? It’s been a while. 

I was awestruck. But it wasn’t the sound I wanted in my home... but it was wonderful to listen to.

I first experienced it with Magnapans and a SUMO class A amp plying vinyl.  Yes substances were involved but I felt like I was inside John Klemmer's horn.  An experience that happened almost 50 years ago but  still remembered today.

I did it with conventional power amps (class AB), no preamps, open-baffle mains, generous amounts of a great power-treatment solution, giving my speakers all the space to breathe they require, first-order crossovers all around and - perhaps most importantly -  I used a digital, speaker management system.

That last one let me actively multi-amp my system and ditch all the audible impacts of using passive crossovers. It also does wonders for the sheer coherency of the imaging/soundstage - front to back, left to right and top to bottom. From that you get that Gordian knot of dynamics, space and the time domain cleaved straight through, (both from mid-to-hi, and from mid-to-low crossover zones if you plan out your system well enough to achieve it). Plus you also get zero sibilance issues, in the bargain.

I plan to also add at some point an atomic clock to my DAC. Not yet certain what all that will improve, but I'm convinced it won't hurt a thing in that regard!

Regarding Huff, I still watch his videos to be informed on new gear, but I don't know that I can trust a reviewer that only listens to streaming over physical media. 2 cents. 

Mr. Huff is a writer, more than a reviewer.  I find every time I see a video of his, he goes on and says almost nothing.  There’s only so many flowery words, but he uses them over and over.

@steakster +10

Mike

kofibaffour, FWIW, I heard this phenomenon at a dealers once. Just an amazing experience and with modest equipment in a medium sized room. The music was a vinyl recording by Opus 3 of "Depth of Image’ played thru a CJ PV5/Threshold SA3 preamp/amp on small floorstanding Thiel 4 speakers. Outstanding. I then bought the recording and actually superior equipment as well as Thiel speakers and tried to duplicate the experience in my homes. I never came really close. But I learned a lot about audio equipment and set up in the process. The most important thing I learned was you had to have a recording that has the information embedded. 

Hyperbole, speaker dependent, I think not. 

It's Steve Huff. He must embellish as always.

But you can have a system with pretty controlled dispersion patterns for both horizontal and vertical planes, they're pair matched as speakers within ±0.5dB, you have the room where masking is not an issue because of recurring reflections, echoes and ringing (basically you have a treated room using physics and listening and not just vibes) and the finally but the most important of them all, does the song in question have that psychoacoustic phenomenon baked in? Cos you're not getting a sprawling stage with a narrow mix or a mono mix no matter the amount of subjective blabber one can say

And I've achieved all in my space so I have a very unchanging presentation over a large space but not walk in stage. That's hyperbole unless you're running line arrays in your space akin to a music festival

I’ve only been able to hear a true walk around in the sound stage feel once with single driver speakers from Omega (SAM’s), probably the best sound stage I’ve ever heard. Granted they lacked in other areas. Second best was some Open baffles, but they need a specific room to optimise correctly. The smaller the speaker the better the sound staging IMO. Larger speakers tend to do that large sound stage that’s more of a wall of sound then a true walking in the sound stage type of thing.

To obtain that enveloping sound stage that puts you in the center of the event, right up there on stage with them, is hard to find with large multi driver speakers from my experience.

Steve Huff also talks to dead people. Have you seen those videos? A Kook.

Two out of five are already cracking jokes—guess soundstage still feels like a mission impossible for some.  I get it though—chasing that truly immersive, three-dimensional stage can feel elusive. When it clicks, it’s pure magic… almost like acoustic N₂O.  And I do believe this can be achieved with miniMax gears.

Walk-in soundstage?  Easy…with nitrous oxide!

@fastricky 

Thanks for sharing! This is actually the first time I’ve learned about the Shahinian Obelisks and their ability to create an enveloping soundfield.

Your observation about the Pontus II resonates with me. It definitely offers impressive width and tonal richness, but I’ve also learned it to be a bit reserved when it comes to the depth. Interestingly, someone recently discovered that adding a Harmony Micro DDC to the Pontus II helped him achieve noticeably deeper soundstage. A tube DAC might also take you further in that direction—it’s definitely worth exploring if you’re after that “walk-in” effect.

@steakster

Thank you for sharing that experience—what a vivid description! Being able to literally stand up and walk into the soundstage before the illusion broke down sounds truly extraordinary. Rick Becker’s setup must have been something special, especially with that room size, the Kharmas, and the attention to power and cabling. I imagine the cathedral ceiling played a big role in enhancing the spatial presentation too.

I agree—getting that kind of walk-in depth seems to require a perfect storm: excellent recordings, precise speaker placement, and a well-matched system in a well-treated space. It's interesting that both LP and CD sources could deliver it equally when the recording quality was there.

As for Steve Huff—I hear you. His enthusiasm can definitely be polarizing. Still, I find it interesting to compare perspectives, even if I take some of them with a grain of salt. He seems to have resonated with a certain kind of listener, but I understand why his style might not appeal to everyone.

Have you ever come close to replicating that walk-in effect in other systems you've heard, even if not quite to the same degree? I’d be curious to hear what other setups came close.

+1 @glennewdick 

In many years of listening to assorted systems - in dealers’ showrooms, audio shows and private homes - I’ve experienced ’a walk-in soundstage’ only with one system.   I could literally get out of the listening chair - from sitting to standing - and walk a few steps toward the speakers - before the illusion collapsed.   It was at Rick Becker’s house, a long-time reviewer for EnjoyTheMusic.   (Rick is a very gracious host - and very genuine with his observations.)

The phenomenon was actually like walking on to a stage.  Quite remarkable - and much fun to listen to.  A well-engineered recording provided the same effect with both LP & CD.  Both with classical and pop/rock music.   Average or poorly engineered recordings did not have the same effect.  

The system was set-up on the long wall on a 15ft x 40ft room with a cathedral ceiling.  The Kharma Ceramique 2.2 speakers were at least 6 ft out from the front wall.   Tube preamp & tube amp.  Much attention to clean power and quality cabling. 

I’ve heard many other systems that had a wonderful soundstage with wide and deep layering.  That alone is quite an accomplishment.

- - - 

Steve Huff is prone to hyperbole.   I don’t follow his reviews any longer.

I think its very speaker and room dependent. 

Unless one lives in a very hot climate, I can’t imagine placing one’s system inside a walk-in...

Yes but only with my analog system and omni speakers (Shahinian Obelisks). I've yet to get to that level digitally but it could be that I need a tube DAC vs the Pontus II I'm currently running which has great width but lacks in immersive depth.