Walking Into A Brick & Mortar High End Audio Store

B&H is B&M all the way. It also has used equipment where you can actually bargain.

The guitar center is very cool for musicians as well as the occasional walk-in. I purchased a new Crown XLS 1500 (Class D switching amp) for a great price several months ago. An excellent overachiever for very few bucks and I still have it, perfect reviews on it from both musicians and audiophiles. Also purchased some Electro Harmonix 12AX7s tubes on the cheap (they didn't require any critical matching for my application) so they worked fine for me.

07-15-14: Czarivey
B&H is B&M all the way.

They also have a great website, and do huge amounts of business via the Internet. I've made a great many purchases over the years via their website, with 100% satisfaction in every way. So it's possible for a retail business to be successful as both a B&M outlet and a web-based seller simultaneously. And no doubt prompt and reliable order fulfillment and good customer service, as well as price, convenience, and the amazingly comprehensive range of products they carry, have all been major factors in their success.

Regards,
-- Al

+1 more for B&H. When I lived in Philly my wife and I went to NYC every Sunday and that was always our first stop.

Hey Czarivey ......

"The best option is B&H photo-video on 9th and 34th midtown NYC. They have great choice of pro-audio(and some high-end) and prices are lower vs. many internet retailers.
Also by walking there be Jewish and bargain!"

Please keep your vulgar prejudicial feelings to yourself. These forums are NOT the place to express your bad taste and obvious lack of sensitivity. An apology by you is definitely in order here. You should really be ashamed of yourself !

Adam,
Read my comment about lack of sense of humor which was placed next...
Read the post you've just bashed again and answer following:
Can you also define vulgar and where do ya see I express bad taste???

Czarivey Writes:
Can you also define vulgar and where do ya see I express bad taste???

You're perpetuating a Stereotype, and generally communicating that you are boorish at best, and generally a complete idiot.

But please, don't let us stop you from being yourself.

Also, the notion that something doesn't offend you, the speaker, is not an appropriate benchmark on the relative appropriateness of a statement.

Donald Sterling's comments about African Americans certainly didn't bother Donald Sterling; they just offended everyone else.

Czarivy .. Any statements that imply anti-Semitism or any other anti-ethnic bias are completely inappropriate. If your ignorance with this is preventing you from realizing that your remark "be Jewish and bargain" is indeed vulgar and in bad taste, then you obviously have some deep issues of prejudicial thought processes that are inexcusable. For the sake of all of us who are offended by your remark, please refrain from digging a deeper hole for yourself. It's a downward spiral, and I suggest you stop it right now !

i agree 100% with almarg (always a good policy around here) and phd--b&h and guitar center are vg examples of how to maintain a competitive b&m retail presence in this day and age. even best buy, ferchrissakes, got their head out of their buttcheeks and started aggressively price-matching, improving their retail displays and providing (marginally) better customer service; against all odds they're looking like a survivor. the idea that a customer should pay a superpremium for gear sold at the neighborhood b&m just because the salesperson was nice and the gear was there for audition is, unfortunately, an antiquated notion. only a tiny segment of buyers will pay a lot more just for good service at a , esp. since a lot of online vendors are also very customer-oriented.

Just to be clear I'm trying to bring some responsibility to the ones for wrong accusations of things that actually did not happen in my posts neither none.

I also asked SIMPLE question why how and where you find my statement vulgar instead of humor and where I'm expressing bad taste literally and clearly, but instead
get some giberish, hate and worded abomination...

I guess I just can't help to fix your major IQ defects unless I'm close and ready to deliver some pain(may fix the issue if not too late).

Just to add... I'm Jewish and I BARGAIN and I see NOTHING wrong with that.
Fix your IQ... There are recipes.

Crarivey is now making physical threats. Nice.

Ignorance and inclination toward violence frequently go hand in hand.

You just continue to uncover your chicken IQ. Nice.

Ignorance, prejudicial thoughts, anti-Semitic statements, and now, threats of physical violence..... Czarivey is just falling deeper and deeper into the abyss. Besides simply scorning him, maybe we should pity him too.

.
Ok...let's get back on track here.

...an audiophile walks into a high end hifi shop...
.

Ignorance, prejudicial thoughts, anti-Semitic statements, and now, threats of physical violence.....

The IQ deficiency or defects is usually ID'd when one takes humor or allegory as literal meaning and than continues to prove it again and again(that's a fact).

No wonder that sincere and positive statement about B&H store turned out to be offensive and vulgar(speaking with supportive evidence indeed).

My entire life I see that, yet, I didn't want to believe that I live among huge portion of mentally undeveloped crowd(indeed not because of birth defect, but I'd rather define as established mindset), but finding at least 3 such dummies in this particular post leaves me with no choice as leave with that proven fact.

Very sad indeed

Isn't it kinda simple? The barebones no frills cheap price can be had impersonally and at potential risk online or you can go to your friendly local hifi emporium to be catered to and demonstrated and educated. Either way you get the product. If you prefer the security and human interaction afforded by the latter, then you should expect to pay a premium.

As for those who abuse these outlines, well they have to live with their transgressions. The store who fails to honor the unwritten understanding I outlined above will learn soon enough the he has to earn his premium or he will soon be earning nothing. The hybrid walks a tightrope but there are many examples like the few mentioned in previous posts who appear to do so rather deftly. And then we have the schmuck who milks the goodwill out of the retail store for the rest of us by abusing the unspoken but widely understood dynamic of putting his money where his mouth is.

I think that our society has reached a dangerous point in its evolution. We have come to place more value on money than we allow for other things in life that are inestimably more important. Certain elements among the reporting fraternity have worked tirelessly to pit us against one another and to generate as much animosity and suspicion as the can engender. We need to understand that we are more different in our individual fears and desires than we are in any genetic or generic front. We need each other. Petty crap like the offense taken over the offhand use of a common catchphrase created a dispute here that never needed to happen. We all know what the reference means because it is a common catchphrase and it targeted no one in particular and no group at all. It was just a phrasing that could easily have been overlooked but some of us had to make a big deal out of it. For god's sake, isn't it likely that all of the stereotypical crap that lingers in our minds as cliche is actually based in some truth somewhere? I always liked Tom Waits line from one of his songs -"colder than a well digger's ass". Do you think he he heard from an attorney representing the well diggers local? Should he have been chastised, sanctioned, prosecuted? Of course not. Let's just relax and blow off the sensitivity remarks.
We have stores to save. Not that I'm any help. I have way too much gear as it is, and the next thing I'm apt to buy will have to be purchased online. There are no vendors within 200 miles. I'm going to be buying a pair of fairly expensive professional active studio monitors. Suggest you all consider whether that can work for you. Flat out destroys much audiophile folklore. Just imagine no more concerns whatsoever about choosing speaker cables. No more matching amps and speakers. Plus even the very affordable, home studio versions have room accommodation adjustments.
And don't forget about Kinky Friedman. I've heard him say several times he intended to christian the guy down on his price.

Oy, ost der gezain? Get this thread back on track. And I stand corrected, used gear at B&H is negotiable. New gear, in my experience isn't.

And Jewish or not, I think most folk enjoy getting a good deal.

Irony here- I've recently dealt with three manufacturers-

One for a repair; one for an upgrade and one for a direct purchase.

Each were exemplary even though to a manufacturer, the retailer really is the customer.

Halevai retailers would all be that way.

This thread has certainly gone to some strange and unpleasant places. I just wanted to make one more post, several days late, to clarify my position.
To begin with, I actually do enjoy my job, which is to serve customers in a friendly and professional manner. It is also my job to educate them and make them feel comfortable. I am well aware that besides that being my primary responsibility, it is even more important considering internet competition, and the desire that many customers have for human contact.
In my original response to Lowrider57, I went off the deep end a little about a very small percentage of customers who
for reasons of loneliness, and sometimes even emotional disorders, make repeated visits to stores of all types without ever intending to make a purchase. When Lowrider57 elaborated on his original post, we made peace with one another and it was put to rest.
One poster said something to the effect that I was a whiner, and should not be in sales. I would ask him, and everyone else in any occupation or profession that they earn their living from to ask themselves if they too do not complain to co-workers, friends and loved ones as a form of pressure release from the frustrations that we all encounter in our jobs. If I don't belong in sales for that reason, then I submit to you that I have a lot of company, because everyone that I have worked with in my last 5 retail sales positions vents to myself and others on a regular basis about these small annoyances.
I do indeed believe in building relationships with clients. Luxury goods are not groceries, and a salesperson must be prepared for several visits from a potential client before a sale is consummated, and be happy if it happens even then!
The satisfaction of connecting a client with something that they really love is wonderful, but mixed in with that are some really difficult experiences. Fortunately, they are in the very small minority, and it is certainly true that if you cannot shake them off quickly and move on, you would likely do better in another field.
I strongly believe in the merits of brick and mortar as well as the internet, but if I had more money, I would patronize brick and mortar more for audio purchases, because of the experience you can have with a good dealer (like John Rutan at Audio Connection) as well as being more likely to know what you are buying before you buy it. Unfortunately, I am not financially able to do that most of the time.
I am sure that the reason that I received strong negative reactions from some posters is that they, like myself, have had some horrible retail experiences that involved rudeness, incompetence or even just indifference. That is not how I operate, and I am sorry if I gave that impression.
Mitch4t, Thanks for a provocative post. It hasn't always been pleasant, but it has at least been interesting.

The retailer owes every customer a level of courtesy and respect. The customer owes the same to the retailer. All parties have obligations to each other. Such simple things, yet so hard to come by.

07-15-14: Macrojack
We all know what the reference means because it is a common catchphrase and it targeted no one in particular and no group at all. It was just a phrasing that could easily have been overlooked but some of us had to make a big deal out of it. For god's sake, isn't it likely that all of the stereotypical crap that lingers in our minds as cliche is actually based in some truth somewhere?

The fact that a catchphrase may be common in some circles does not mean that its use should be condoned or tolerated. Would you feel comfortable using the aforesaid catchphrase in person, in the presence of an audience of diverse and unknown background?

The mention of Donald Sterling in one of the above posts, btw, brings to mind a different catchphrase, or more precisely, catchword, that was also "common" in certain parts of the country for a couple of hundred years or so. Does the fact that it was commonly used in some places make its use acceptable?

Regards,
-- Al

To echo Charyo's remark, I think we all owe each other a little respect. I come on this forum, either to get information, or to provide it when I can. I'm not a PC type person, but I was the one who called out CZ on his remark, and from what I gather, he didn't intend to be mean-spirited. Frankly, although I'm jewish, I'm not a very religious jew, and am not unduly sensitive to a good joke, which often pokes fun at stereotypes. But, having said that, my concern was perpetuating a stereotype that is offensive. Macro- I'm not sure there is a legacy of prejudice against well diggers, so the analogy doesn't work, but as I said when I first brought it up, let people say what they will; I'm certainly not into censorship or making people toe the line in terms of PC sensibilities (or whatever you want to call it).
I have no interest in perpetuating this aspect of the thread; I made my contributions to it in substance on the issues of dealers and courtesy. I also think that public statements can be tricky, which is why I usually try to keep it light. If CZ meant no harm, I'll take him at his word. But word do have consequences, as we see everyday in the media.
Not trying to play gotcha here, but since I was the one that raised the issue with CZ's remarks first, I thought it fair to give you my perspective. No snark intended.

Just a follow up to a statement made earlier. In my opinion and experience, everything is negotiable. If you allow salespeople to convince you otherwise, then you have fallen for the trap. Cars, home appliances, clothes, watches, expensive audio equipment, etc. The prices are limited somewhat by what the manufacturer allows dealers to sell their items for, but, there is some float on most things. Especially demonstration equipment. Anyone that walks into a car dealership beliving that the invoice price is what the car really sells for or worse, is what the dealer actually paid for the car (or leased), didn't do their homework. In my experience, once you have established a good relationship with a dealer, and they know you are serious about a potential purchase, they will deal with you on price. Again, they can't give it away, but they can negotiate. I tried to teach my Daughter to always ask for a least a 10% discount on most things. Most stores can actually give such discounts if requested. Also, with respect to the name calling and sensibilities regarding phrases and words here, lets just slow down, calm down and think a little. Everyone is not the same. Some people have very thick skins (can take a lot before becoming offended) and some have very thin skins and have low tolerance. Some people have never experienced prejudice or hatred in any form and others have. That said, there are reasons why some people are insensitive to certain phrases and some are vey sensitive to them. Both may be very good people. However, if someone tells you that a word or phrase you are using is offensive to them. Stop trying to convince them otherwise and listen to them. It offended or hurt them. period. Stop using that phrase around them. They have their reasons why it offends them. Respect that. A person's right to smoke ends at my nose. A person's right to rediculously loud music ends at my ears. people can talk about women and certain aspects of women's bodies until the cows come home. However, the moment a woman hears that and is offended, maybe that person should take a step back and realize that just maybe it was offensive and you are in the wrong. Almost every company has harrassment, discrimination and sensitivity training for a reason. In my company, we have to take this very long course every year, and you know what? That is a good thing. Stop trying to explain yourself and why you are sticking with a certain aspect of your character. If someone is offended, leave it at that and stop. I'm offended when a dealer looks me up and down as if I'm not worthy and doesn't give me the time of day. Sometimes it is funny, sometimes it hurts and sometimes it is just sad. I also realize that money is the same color (in America), and my money is just a good as the next person's, and if they don't realize that they are going to lose out on a potentially large sale because of their rudeness, insensitivity, lazyness, lack of respect, lack of consideration, ignorance, or maybe, just maybe, they don't like my race, color, religion, etc. Then you know what? They can go pound sand. I can go elsewhere. But, fortunately, this is not so much in the open anymore. I've also found over the many years that how I initially treat and address some people determines how they will treat me. So some times, it starts with me. Get pulled over by a policeman. You can be angry and obnoxious to them or place your hands on the steering wheel in plain site and stay calm and quiet. you will get a totally different reaction most of the time. So, please don't expect everyone to belive in what you believe in. Don't expect everyone to look like you, talk like you, live like you and especially, like the same equipment (tubes vs solid state), or same type of music. I'm older and come to expect a degree of courtesy. If I don't get that or if a saleperson is rude, etc. I can walk out (which I typically will do) or/and write a letter which really does have an impact on most companies. But, sooner or later your choice to not do business with that store will be cumlative and will have a very negative impact on that store. The problem is, they will not know why their sales are failing or why they are going out of business. But, enough letters will help document the problem that they can refer to and hopefully fix before it is too late for them. Many high end manufacturers don't allow their products to be sold on the internet. Some are coming around to that potentially large consumer market. However, if they do, they do not want to put their brick and mortar dealers out of business and therefore, they are very strick on internet and B&M prices. Also, if one wants to buy new on line, you really need to be very careful because it may be grey market and not come with manufacturer's warranty.

So, please, enjoy

Whart,Bill .You are a true gentlemen Have you gone west? Looking forward to meeting you one day.

Minorl,
I completely agree, but insult with no ground has no excuse(and it actually delivers a pain as per above mentioned not neccessarily physical) unless it comes from one with either mental birth defects or low-life with chicken IQ that needs no audible or visual attention.
Realizing and identifying categories mentioned above is good weapon to cease the insult.
After mentioning a few times about my GOOD intentions same people didn't understand and continued to sink in their dogmas delivering insults... Therefore I made a proper conclusion about their lack of normal functional IQ and comprehensive attention and let them be how they like to be.

Czarivey, your first remark was ill considered, you're follow-up comments about people's intelligence strikes me as immature. If you continue in that vein I can only conclude that you're not a gentleman.

I think I have made my feelings about this sort of thing clear and I am not following up to take sides. I certainly do not mean to take any liberties or speak on behalf of anyone else; but as someone for who English is not his first language, I would simply like to point out and encourage all to remember that the intended meaning and forcefulness of a comment do not always translate as intended when expressing oneself in a foreign language. The accuracy of the expressed sentiment can get very distorted; and accuracy and distortion are things we should all be sensitive to. No? :-)

Frogman wrote:

"...I certainly do not mean to take any liberties or speak on behalf of anyone else; but as someone for who English is not his first language..."

someone for _whom_ English is not his first language.

:-)

Lo siento, pero estas equivocado!

Thanks for the attempted grammar lesson, but you may want to reconsider your assertion:

http://download.cnet.com/Microsoft-Word-2013/3000-2079_4-75855647.html

:-)

More Brick and Mortar stores should offer in-home audition. I would happily pay for the service - especially if the money (all or in part) were applied to a purchase. It would be money well spent to avoid a mistake. Twenty years ago, Golden Ear Audio (in Virginia) brought over several pairs of speakers for me to audition. The ones that I liked in the store sounded terrible in my home. Recently, Gary Dews from Border Patrol brought over a pair of Living Voice speakers and one of his 300b based amplifiers; he said that it is part of the service that he offers.

I was looking for speakers to go along with my MA6600. I listened to several pairs before settling on 2 pairs at a SF mac store. I ended up buying another brand. I felt the salesperson was so good and honest I went and overpaid on a MC452 from them.
I was trying to decide between a ss or tube pre and store a only had a demo, store b (where I bought the 6600)had one on order due in a week. Two weeks went bye and I was told the one on order was spoken for and did I want the demo when It came back in. I called store A and no stock. Drove to the SanJose dealer and got a new pre at demo pricing. 10 days later the store b called and said the demo was back in stock. The sales person had a fit when I told him I drove 30 mi and bought a new one. I did not want to buy from the Magnolia chain. I try to buy locally when I can, which is difficult here on the West Coast.

Jump on Brick and Mortar now pay full list!!

Discussing "who" vs. "whom," although often a question not lacking in difficulty, seems less likely to perturb domestic tranquility than discussing the other tangent this thread went off on. So I'll mention that I believe Courant is correct, and it should be "whom."

The spelling and grammar checker of Microsoft Word in Microsoft Office Professional Plus 2010 does not flag an error for either "who" or "whom." But using the "he vs. him" trick described at the end of this article, one would say (albeit a bit clumsily) "for him English is not his first language," not "for he English is not his first language," and therefore "whom" would be correct.

Best regards,
-- Al

According to Ernest Hemingway, it's "For Whom the Bell Tolls." But, more importantly, does the sound of that tolling bell sound better via tubes or solid state ?

Adam18 - You've got it bad. The audiophile thing, that is. The bell sounds best live ........... and always will despite any pricey mods or upgrades to reproduction equipment.

Tubes, absolutely! Cryo'd brass is best; of course.

Re who/whom: I am glad the question became a diversion from "the other" topic. While I may be willing to concede since I have never known Al to be factually incorrect about anything, I still think that, at the very least, a case can be made for either. We could dig a little deeper and explore things like the exceptions to the "rules" when the word in question is either the object or the subject of the preposition, but just like in the debates about the audibility of tweaks, I actually enjoy and prefer to leave room for a bit of ambiguity and mystery. BTW, my Microsoft Word program does, in fact, flag an error for "whom". :-)

Speaking of bells and a bit of trivia that some may find interesting: when real church bells became a thing of the past due to the use of electronic amplified bell sounds as is common today, some of the now out of work Italian bell makers were hired by the Selmer (France) musical instrument company to make the bells for their premium line of saxophones. Most of the great players use(d) these instruments.

Regards.

Excellent story Frogman. As a matter of fact, the Selmer Mark VI saxophone has been used by some of the greatest players out there, including Coltrane, Rollins, Getz, Gordon, and Konitz. The "Selmer sound" is quite beautiful.

Someone once said, "...for whosoever believeth in me shall have everlasting life." Maybe he should have said, "...for whomsoever believeth in me..."

"whom" - to be used as object of the preposition, I believe.

Madam,
This is the sort of pedantic nonsense up with which I shall not put.

After Winston Churchill's secretary corrected a sentence in a letter she was typing because he had ended a it with a preposition, he returned it to her to be retyped. The above quote was attached.

Maybe we are leaning a bit too hard on this triviality. This is the internet, after all. Everything is misspelled with bad grammar. The English language I was taught in school will be completely bastardized or obliterated in just 2 more generations. And what has rap and texting done to spelling already?

Great article, Onhwy61. Thanks!

With respect to this excerpt in particular, though ...

In cases where a relative or interrogative human-class pronoun is associated with subject function in a subordinate clause that is not the main clause in which it is preposed, usage is divided ...

... I'm surprised that opinion would be divided :-)

Best regards,
-- Al

Yes, great article; thanks!

Adam18, the Mk6' are the most highly regarded, as you know; but Mk6's are not all created equal. During the lifespan of that model there have been certain years when the horns produced were (it is no longer made) really special. There is a lot of speculation and myth around the possible reasons why this is so; and it is. The cream of the crop of the Mk6's were the horns made from the late 50's to early 60's; those horns are the most sought after and most valuable. Generally speaking they do have some special qualities in the sound and response. I have had occasion to speak to a couple of the artisans who worked for Selmer during those years and there are two main reasons for their excellence: the manufacturing process was not as automated as it is today and the formulation of the metal used during those years was different; it was, technically, not brass but bronze with its higher copper content.

"Maybe we are leaning a bit too hard on this triviality."

My intent was more about providing a diffuser to the other thread (hence the smiley).

FWIW, I like how Frogman cites Microsoft as a source authority on English Grammar. :-D

Also, Almarg's comments are correct:
he/who - nominative
him/whom - objective

Well, I guess that settles it and I agree that MW is hardly authoritative. Now, your attempt at diffusing the tenor of the original thread completely ignored my attempt at diffusing by not acknowledging my brilliant and very insightful :-) comment about the role that command of a language plays in how a sentiment comes a cross in print; especially when that language is not one's first.

Geoffkait - Something to take up with the translators since I'm pretty certain He wasn't speaking King James English.

I went into my local Audi dealership just to "kick the tires"--sorta see what's out there. Had no intention of buying a new ride. On the showroom floor was the new model (back in 2011) A7.

Long story short...I traded the Bimmer two weeks later for an A7. A year later I traded the A7 for the S7 and a year later traded the S7 for the RS7.

Total Audi purchases in 3 years--$300,000.

I don't think the dealer regrets me walking in just to "kick the tires".

Roxy, you sound like an idiot.

There is an interesting piece about what separates mediocre dealers from good dealers from superb dealers written by Jim Smith on the site for High Fidelity Report. Based on the criteria that Jim describes, I'd say that only a fraction of dealers I've encountered over the decades meet his standards.
Cajun: I hear you, but think about this: if the car shopping (say an older exotic) involved the kind of work on the part of the dealer comparable to asking an audio dealer to set up a particular turntable/cartridge with a particular rig in the shop and you went in on a Saturday, asking that the car dealer let you do a compression test on the motor, and put the car on a lift to see the underbody, and maybe pull a wheel, I doubt you'd get much traction as a casual walk-in. You'd call first, and say, I'd like to look at this car, and have a quick PPI.
I walked away from a car once because the sales guy was busy with another customer, and I hadn't called in advance. (It was a vintage exotic). I shoulda bought the thing; it's value skyrocketed over the course of the next couple years.
Enjoy the Audis.