What affects front to back depth in room/ system?

Easy illusion for a time and phase correct speaker….. and get the mid and tweeter about 44” off the back wall so as not to confuse the ear/brain. It’s also quite helpful to use a great reference…like Opus 3 test LP… drumroll…. Depth of Image

Soundstage can be at least as much dependent on how a recording / track was mastered (or remastered) as it might be on speaker model / placement x room. Hard characteristic to change, but as already mentioned, DSP can help.

@veerossi if you find “truly great” systems to have a listen, either bring a USB stick with a few of the exact files you think have exemplary soundstage, or at least make sure the same streaming service tracks are available in a short time span. If you don’t use the same source file / master, any conclusions you make could be off-mark.

Can't help you there, but if you are ever around Austin, just let me know. My house of stereo may well meet your high standards. Good luck in your pursuit.

Thanks for the replies so far. I'm going to get a photo up tomorrow so you can see my room/setup. @baylinor: For 3 years, I had the system setup with speakers on the short 15' wall (rooom is 15x20). I didn't understand why at the time, so I bought new speakers thinking larger drivers (went to 10" from 8") would have improved the bass response, but it didn't. I ended up going to Acoustic Fields and did there free room consultation. Dennis suggested setting up the speakers on the long wall. I did that and boy- what a huge improvement. Everything was better- no comparison. I'm don't understand the physics behind it, but certainly can appreciate the positive difference. I think I must have had a nasty node/ cancellation in previous room configuration. For good measure, I was thinking about switching back again (at some point) just to double check.

What I thing would really help at this point is to be able to hear a truly great system. I need a benchmark. It would also help me understand what is possible and not in 2 channel audio. Anyone here in SoCal have an awesome room/ system I can take a listen to? 

Good Omni directional speakers like mbl do it best but are still limited in most rooms at home unless they can be set up just right to get levels and timing of reflected sound just right. 

It's unusual for a system to throw a deep soundstage. Over the years there have been several attempted enhancements to simulate depth.

 

Oh??

It's unusual for a system to throw a deep soundstage. Over the years there have been several attempted enhancements to simulate depth. All of these systems manipulate phase information to trick your brain into perceiving more depth. Here are several examples. You can look up the reviews on this stuff and get a better idea what each option does. Soundstage depth has been a priority for me and I have owned several of these units.
1. Carver Sonic Holograhy C-9. Alters phase information to give the illusion of more depth. I have one and it works reasonably well but you have to carefully set it up and keep your head still when you use it. They come up for sale regularly and are not expensive.
2. BSG QOL Processor. This is the best solution I've found. They are discontinued but ocassionally one comes up for sale. It adds depth and the instruments sit in their own three dimensional space. When audiophiles hear my system with this engaged their jaw drops. I have a spare in case my first unit bites the dust.
3. Baach 3D Spacial Processor. This is the newest gizmo (or software) on the market and its generating lots of press. I haven't heard one but I'm looking forward to auditioning at least the software version. The deluxe hardware unit goes for a heart stopping $54,000. You can get a mac software version for a few grand. Like the Carver, you have to carefully set it up and keep your head in a vice while listening. The ultra fancy version actually has a head tracking function that direct the image at your noggin if you sneeze.
4. Polk SDA Speakers. Polk makes speakers that incorporate phase altering technology to improve the soundstage.
5. Yamaha DSP-1 Processor. This is a different approach in that it has an adjustable delay function for one or two sets of auxillary speakers. It can simulate a live concert to an eerie degree. It takes one or two additional amplifiers and one or two pairs of additional speakers to make it work. I have one but it isn't hooked up at the moment. It's kind of a pain but when you have it running and dialed in it is an incredible experience - especially for live recordings.

There is also an easier experiment you can do which requires a set of bookshelf speakers, stands, and a separate integrated amplifier. Setup the bookshelf speakers back to back with your regular speakers so they are firing at the front wall. Hopefully you have an unused set of preamp outputs that you can hook up to an integrated amp. Hook up the integrated to the bookshelf speakers and experiment with the volume and tone controls. If you have an equalizer hooked into the integrated you are in tall clover. This can add a nice amount of depth to your system.

If you've made it this far you realize that you are not the first person to have this issue. Depth is the holy grail of stereo reproduction and there has been a lot of attempts to solve the problem.

For the record, I'm running a pair of Thiel CS6 speakers with a Krell KSA 300S amp. The speakers are 6' from the front wall which is the best place to get maximum depth without any processing. With the BSG QOL I have a window that sounds like a deep soundstage with instruments that are placed left to right and front to back. It's pretty amazing. 

Ability to Visualize is part of our experience, 2 channel system: all Imaging is Phantom in origin and that modified by the space.

You would think: ’How the hell does he have a dining room table in the middle of the listening area???? Keeps telling us his system has excellent imaging, WTF?

 

Close your eyes, tables out of your perception: everything comes from the un-obstructed L and R speakers, the Phantom Image is NOT coming from a center speaker: timing, volume differences, phase, whatever the engineers did, comes together as excellent or poor imaging.

This is why I often say: REMOTE BALANCE is a wonderful feature, a small tweak can bring the entire intended Imaging into Focus, not just the center singer, everything ’sharpens’.

It is/was much easier to perceive ’DEPTH’ in spaces with open space behind the speakers, and in fact that open space and resulting reflections/timing ... does help your brain Perceive Depth.

................................................

Another Perception Aid is Knowing Where the various musicians are seated,

expecting violins left, bass right, Woodwinds Center l/r and f/b, Horns rear, Drums rear left

i.e. Knowing,, Expecting, Perceiving that imaging IF the engineers got it right.

standard Orchestra Arrangement:

 

.................................

HUH?

I saw the Hot Sardines Live in Montclair, then I bought a double LP of Live Performances: One Toronto, the Other Joe’s Pub, NYC.

 

Joe’s Pub, Piano on the Left? Piano was right when I saw them live.

Everything was ’opposite’ to my former experience and expected perception. McIntosh Mode switch to the rescue: ’Stereo Reverse’, now that is ’right’, did someone involved make a l/r mistake?

Nope, as it happened, Donna was at the Joe’s Pub performance, and that smaller stage, the Piano was on the left.

OK, now, knowing that, and being familiar with Joe’s Pub, I listened in Stereo, not reversed.

@veerossi 

Most importantly, set speakers on the 15' wall, not the 20' one. Then place them at least 4' to 5' from front wall and 2' to 3' from sidewalls. Only then will you start getting the full 3D effect. By my experience anyway. 

If I understand your question, you are looking for something very unusual. Typically we look for the soundstage to begin at or behind the speakers… like at a concert. The stage, is where the sound comes from. The mark of a great system, in part, is it being laid back with a deep / wide sound stage.

Some speakers can be “forward” typically having a shallow sound stage… typically this is a criticism of the system because it is not reproducing natural sound.

 

There is a few home audio speaker systems that are are designed not so much to do the sound-staging.. but to produce a wall of sound. The ones I remember hearing were six or seven feet high, with tweeters in the middle and mid range above and below then further out woofers above and below. I don’t remember names.

i would recommend trying your system against the short wall. Making sure there is nothing taller than an amp on the floor… equipment racks typically interfere with sound staging.

 

It would be really helpful to see your system in its current form. There is a place for photos along with your equipment.

 

A primary factor is how much space behind the speakers.

My current setup, wall behind, I get great imaging EXCEPT limited Depth

 

Prior Location, Long Space, Speakers 2/3’s out facing Living Area One End, Very Wide Archway Open to Dining Area Behind Speakers: MORE DEPTH.

However, the reverse existed regarding rear wall reflection timing..

Prior: Sofa against rear wall, quick rear wall reflections

Current: Open space Behind Listening Position, diminished volume of and increased time delay of rear reflections, improves precision of imaging.

And: Rear PORTS: Closed here, Open Prior (a bit of extended bass out of the 15" woofers) too close to rear wall now.

I was young, thinking too much, had Electrovoice Engineers help me with port design, never needed, waste of time.

My friend has my old JSE Model II’s, he loved them here when younger. He lives in a Firehouse he bought, they have PLENTY of space behind and to the side, he updated the crossovers, changed the tweeters from those nice but easily blown Dynaudio D21’s.

HOWEVER, like my prior location, his sofa is against the wall behind. I keep telling him, treat the wall behind, minimize the rear reflections. He mentioned he has a giant American Flag. I would glue a thick layer of old fashioned carpet underlayment on the wall behind the flag.

He thinks he may reverse everything in the big room, then he would have plenty space on sides, rear, and behind his listening position, that ought to be better than ever.

Maybe when setup, I’ll have him and a strong friend or two move my current speakers over there, hear them in that ’open’ setup for the first time, and he wants to compare these to the Model II’s.

Acoustic treatment in dimension of concern.  Diffusion behind speakers and listeners, ceiling absorbers between speaker and listener

This has a lot to do with equipment quality and system setup

 

You need high resolution gear and a system setup with good cabling power vibration conditioner vibration reduction you haveto maximize what the system can show you and if it is in the recording you should get it