Mapman imo - The smart speaker manufacturer realizes most rooms do not support 20 hz, and builds this EQ into the speakers design for the full range models. The speakers can handle it if they were designed to. In some cases this changes the load the speaker is looking for and actually makes them easier for the amp. I can give an example if you like. |
Something different Bass Test for Phil Collins - In the Air Tonight https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0U5qunTUJk&index=1&list=RDD0U5qunTUJk |
Second the Kii 3's. They were one of my favorites at NYAS, I am afraid to say I enjoyed them more than Harbeth MK40.2's... The technology in the Kii's makes them a good deal. Are you going small because your room is small? Or are you trying to avoid overbearing speakers? If it's the former, you may have a lot of hump and suckout treatments to do with those long waves bouncing around. |
What you ask is impossible, as others have mentioned. Get a set of "bookshelf" style speakers or a small(ish) tower speaker and a good sub woofer, REL, Velodyne, etc. When properly matched and tuned, they can best all but the best full size speakers. The wife acceptance factor is usually on the high side. Also do not discount the possibility of higher end in wall speakers for the satellites. The low frequency is more a function of the room, as others have mentioned, getting enough sub woofer is imperative. |
I've managed to achieve fairly flat/clean response in my 15.5ft x 10.1ft room down to 22Hz, but I'm using four 12" woofers and lots of power to do that at greater than 90dB. What I've found is that interesting musical content below 40Hz is uncommon. Most of what I hear is stage/studio vibrations, an HVAC switching on, a truck driving by, or other low, rumbly noises that were picked up by the mics during recording and not filtered out. While these sonic artifacts are occasionally interesting, they rarely contribute to the musical performance in any helpful way, so I'd probably be better off rolling things off sharply below about 32Hz. Here's a graph of actual measured response at the listening position before and after correction: http://www.dsnyder.ws-e.com/photos/potn/Loft_Before_After_and_Target.png Here's a photo of the actual room from the listening position: http://www.dsnyder.ws-e.com/photos/potn/loft_wide.jpg I'm confident that I could achieve similar response with somewhat smaller loudspeakers, but I estimate that minimally four 10" woofers or two 12" woofers would be required in total to achieve this level of bass extension without a separate subwoofer. I had these loudspeakers before the room...they are obviously a bit large for the space, . If I was buying loudspeakers specifically for this room, I would probably have chosen Harbeth 30.1 or Legacy Audio Calibre and would have been quite happy. |
I was just going to mention room gain. It will be 3 - 10 db/octave, depending on a variety of things. The posts about relying only on anechoic measurements are fine, but they don't translate directly into what you hear in your room. My REL pair of subs, in my 18 X 35 room, give me flat to 22, down 3db at 20, from an 85db reference. Unfortunately, down 6db at 16hz. And a peak at 28, which I could soften by speaker direction, but I like 28hz (upright bass low frequency). Luckily, those ratios exist for me at a 65db reference. In a fairly large sweet spot that covers 4 listening positions. Placement fairly straightforward - optimizing the subs' distance from corners, energizing the room. I also boost a bit with controls, to accommodate the Fletcher-Munson effect at low listening levels, if i think about it. I mention these several things, because they are part of the listening experience. Reference level, room shape and size, room gain, floor coupling, preference, size of sweet spot - and don't forget those peaks, which may fool you into thinking that sound levels at your targeted frequency are deficient. I'd like to be flat to 16, but I also want to be able to move my speakers. In my mind, tweaking sound with placement experiments is thwarted if you have to invite friends to move the monsters. I like my setup. The RELs are the first subs that mix so easily with my mains. It's not like LISTEN - I HAVE SUBWOOFERS. It's like Wow, what a nice, integrated full spectrum sound I have. |
Mikapen There is no doubt to myself, about this effect. It is very important. For the others benefit I post a link on some info to it. http://ehomerecordingstudio.com/fletcher-munson-curve/ " What is it? The Fletcher Munson Curve is a graph that illustrates an interesting phenomenon of human hearing. When listening to music through your studio monitors or headphones… As the actual loudness changes, the perceived loudness our brains hear will change at a different rate, depending on the frequency. Here’s what I mean: • At low listening volumes – mid range frequencies sound more prominent, while the low and high frequency ranges seem to fall into the background. • At high listening volumes – the lows and highs sound more prominent, while the mid range seems comparatively softer. Yet in reality, the overall tonal balance of the sound remains the same, no matter what the listening volume." |
@dsnyder0cnn thanks for posting the pic of the room. Wanted to share a past experience I had. Used to have a setup with full range speakers that needed to be close to the rooms side wall boundaries to achieve the low.. lows, with side treatment much like in your picture. I used the mirror technique. I then changed out amps - actually two different amps and noticed something interesting. I was able to move the speakers away from side walls significantly, but did not lose the low frequencies. The amp that could not produce the low, lows with those speakers, was a 300 wpc Class A/b. Both replacement amps that were able to - 600 wpc Class A and 100 wpc Tube Push Pull Amp. The previous amp was checked out as ok. It also happened (I have sold it since) to be a brand that is very much paired with the speakers used. i found this interesting. @the OP - Mapman So ....did you try that Phil Collins In The Air Tonight bass link test I posted earlier through your main rig yet ? Interested to know what happened. Cheers |
I'll need to find a way to download that Phil Collins track as a WAV or MP3 to test since I'm using digital room correction. Might be able to get the audio from Youtube to stream over DLNA as well, but I have not looked into it. In my case, the loudspeakers are close to the walls (18.5" away on-center) for soundstage reasons more than for bass...which I have too much of in this room without correction. |
Check out Neat Motive SX1, a petite floor stander that extends down to 25Hz. http://www.neat.co.uk/p_pages/motiveone.php A great musical speaker that punches well above its price point |
Ct I hear most of the indicated bass notes that were added there. Level I hear is down some at 30 hz and harder to discern lower. That is consistent with fletcher Munson. This was with moderate loud volume on my main system Using an older Pc usb feed to mhdt Constantine dac to arc sp 16 pre-amp to Bel Canto ref1000m amps to Ohm F5 series 3 speakers (12 inch Walsh style driver with on board tone level adjustments to room size). Room size is ~ 22x34 L shape with normal to slightly lower than normal ceiling height and 3 openings to adjacent rooms. I coukd try again with the doors closed as I usually do to max out low bass. That at was very cool with the visual display. Thanks. |
The lowest frequencies produced by almost all musical instruments are not as low as commonly believed. For instance, whilst 28Hz was above stated as being produced by an upright bass, that instrument's lowest note---the E string played "open", is actually located at 42Hz. The 4-string electric bass (often incorrectly called a bass guitar, even by John Atkinson, who should know better) produces that same note and frequency as it's lowest. There are a few instruments which produce frequencies lower than 42Hz, including pipe organ, grand piano, and contra bassoon. Some recordings made in very large spaces---cathedrals, concert halls---contain the very low frequencies those rooms support. The ability to reproduce those very low frequency "room sounds" is one of the benefits of good subwoofers. A good recording of a pipe organ played in a cathedral will contain the "shuddering" sound that combination produces. It is an enormous, massive, thrilling sound! |
My take is that Noble100 (Tim) is the "smartest man in the village" with educated insight. I look to see more of his posts. If the penchant of the OP is excellent bass response in a small speaker, I will offer two alternatives: Joseph Audio Pulsars or Dynaudio C1 speakers... pretty flat down to the low 40 hz realm. I recall hearing the Pulsars at an audio show driven by a Rogers tube amp (!) and the bass response from these stand mount speakers was astounding, with gut-wrenching bass response. Ditto for Dyn's. The JA Pearls go down to 25 hz, but are +$20K and are hulkingly large speakers. As Tim cogently informs us, your goals of having smallish speakers with the bass response that is your goal defies the laws of physics. I personally would not need a subwoofer for the Pulsars or C1's in a modestly-sized room as I am a lover of sublime mid-range response, but the addition of one or two REL subs to a pair of fine stand mount speakers will fulfill your needs very nicely, but still get you response only to the mid 30s hz. I use a REL T-7 with my Spatial Audio M4 Holograms and it rounds out the LF response extremely well. |
His question stated "smallest" that plays to 20 Hz. I’ll grant you that 48" is a tall speaker...it also has some depth but it is a narrow speaker. Lets have some fun here: Name me a pair of speakers (no subs allowed) that play to 20 Hz that are smaller than Triton Two+. Bonus if they go to 16. We'll use area (LxWxH) as the "smallest" deciding factor. |
I think "Plays flat to 16 Hz. " might be a bit generous: http://www.stereophile.com/content/goldenear-technology-triton-two-loudspeaker-measurements#XYlmKGoz... |
I still maintain that this is a silly exercise for several reasons:
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Interesting design the Kii Three A review here - pdf download available in English. http://kiiaudio.com/en/press.html I found the "StudioMagazin" review a good read over coffee this morning. from the review. The Kii Three was designed to provide extremely deep bass from a relatively small and surprisingly lightweight cabinet. An additional objective was to create dispersion characteristics equalling those of a flush mount monitor, notwithstanding the relatively narrow baffle. The smaller the loudspeaker front, the earlier (higher in frequency) the speakers dispersion will become omnidirectional – an unwelcome property in loudspeakers that studio planners go to great lengths to avoid. Room acoustics issues appear predominantly at low frequencies and when trying to achieve precise stereo imaging. While the latter can be optimized by comparatively simple measures, taming the low frequencies takes a much larger effort (see also our special edition Room Acoustics and Studio Design, June 2016). This is where the Kii Three comes in, creating a consistent cardioid sound field all the way down to just short of 50Hz, then gradually becoming omnidirectional below this point. With the Speaker placed close to a wall and thus at an acoustically benign boundary distance, the resulting level increase below 50Hz can easily be treated in a compensation filter. All this complex signal processing costs the user dearly – not financially, but by introducing a latency of 90 milliseconds which would disqualify the Kii Three for any kind of real time work in the control room. To avoid this, the monitor can be set to a low latency mode by pushing a button marked “P/R“ on the back panel, reducing the latency to only a handful of DSP samples plus the DAC latency for a total value in the one millisecond range. The low latency mode replaces the highly complex low frequency filters by simplified algorithms, leaving the sonic properties of the monitor basically unchanged. The only tradeoff is reduced precision at low frequencies, but at a very reasonable magnitude with only small impact on aural evaluation. |
from the manual http://www.kii.audio/phocadownload/Kii_THREE_manual_online_EN.pdf Technical Specifications: Compact DSP controlled monitor speaker 4x 6.5” woofer, 1x5” midrange, 1” waveguided tweeter, all individually driven Amplification: 6x250W full-custom Ncore Active Wave Focusing crossover filter Frequency response: 20Hz to 25kHz +/- 0.5dB Phase response: minimum (best possible time coherence). Long term SPL(*): 105dB Short term SPL(*): 110dB Peak SPL: 115dB Controlled Directivity: 4.8dB (80Hz - 1kHz, slowly rising thereafter) Size: 20x40x40cm, 8”x16”x16” (WxHxD) Weight: 15kg (33lbs) Inputs: Analogue, AES/EBU Selectable correction for free-standing, near wall or in corner |
I didn't have time to read all the posts, so I don't know if the conversation evolved into something else. But to answer the original post, the Genesis 500's delivered some of the best bass I've ever had in my listening room. They looked like a Watt/Puppy, and they were about the same size. I'm assuming you are looking for a small floor standing speaker, and not a stand mount. |
Wow tostado, a piano tuner! Man, that takes a real good ear and lots of training. I worked with one pianist who wasn’t much of a player (he grew up in the era of the British Prog Bands, hence couldn’t play rhythmically to save his life) but was a competent tuner, which is what he ended up doing as a career. Surprisingly, a lot of real good guitarists had a hard time tuning before the invention of the electronic tuner. They would get each individual string close, but chords would still sound sour. The only guy I played with (R.I.P.) who was great at tuning a guitar had perfect pitch, and playing with him spoiled me for most others. Pianos, with two strings per key and many more keys than the six strings of a standard guitar, are much, much harder to tune. Twelve-string guitars are notoriously impossible to keep tuned for very long, especially the thin-necked Rickenbackers. Jim McGuinn was always out of tune on live Byrds shows! But yeah, real low frequencies don’t sound like a "note" being played. And a lot of criticism of subwoofers sounding fat, bloated, slow, etc., is more the result of "room boom" (dimension-related resonances/standing waves), the very low frequencies the sub(s)are playing exciting the room modes/nodes that aren’t excited without the sub(s). One of the benefits of dipole woofers and subs is that they excite fewer of those room dimensions (the length not the width, if firing down the length of the room), the result being less room boom. Harry Pearson long preferred the bass panels of the Magneplanar Tympani loudspeakers (a dipole, of course) for their very taut, lean bass and midbass, in preference to omnipole dynamic cone woofers in enclosures. Some fanatics still use the Tympani panels as woofers/subs, and GR Research in conjunction with Rythmik Audio offers an Open Baffle/Dipole sub that uses a pair of 12" woofers mounted in an "H-frame". State-of-the-Art bass! |
I use two Torus Infrasonic Generators. They go down to 20Hz. Two Carbon fiber 18" diaphragms. They have a large heavy core with windings above and below the diaphragm, and work in push pull. Fast like an electro static speaker. No doubling either. These are not your usual long throw drivers with heavy suspension systems that slow things down. These beauties play music. If that matters. |
Perhaps the question should be how to get low frequency that is fast enough to keep up with an 8" or 10" woofer in the main speakers. Not many available. I mean how do you make a large diaphragm move as quickly as a smaller diaphragm. Not easily done. You might move a ton of air with a long throw sub but is it clean or just double like crazy. If you walls start resonate then you are probably doubling. |
I’ve been considering adding subs to my second system that uses smaller limited range monitors and Rhythmik subs are the leading contender if I do. I used to use an older M&K 12" sub there that gave up the goat a couple years back. Not much happening there below 50hz or so currently but what’s there does sound quite lovely these days indeed and my other main system covers the bases that one does not pretty well. its nice actually having two different windows into the music, one with good authorative detailed and articulate bass extension down to at least 30hz or so that one can feel as well as hear, the other just nice and clear and detailed music to hear if not so much feel. Then there are the headphone options with these as well for yet a different way to listen but that's another story altogether. |
Hey Chris (ct0517) sorry, I just saw your post asking me about Phil Collins. I missed it somehow. Anyway, I’m not that familiar with Phil's playing, though I do know he is, as am I, a lefty. I never got into Genesis (I’m not a fan of Progressive Rock in general) or his solo career, but there is no question he’s a fine player, and singer as well. He has employed drummer Chester Thompson on at least some of his solo LPs, who is himself quite an accomplished player. Their styles are not up my alley, which is that of Roger Hawkins (Muscle Shoals session player), Levon Helm (The Band), Jim Gordon (L.A. session player, Derek & The Dominoes, Traffic), and Buddy Harman (Nashville session player). |