What is wrong with audiophiles?

Thanks mijostyn for your interesting remarks...


Just a word tough, my ears are in my heart....    :)

mahgister, I think you were on to something. Your last line should have read, "And think with your heart not only your brain."
If listening to your system makes you smile, gives you that little tingle inside you are in business. If all you hear are problems you are in trouble. You will spend all you time and money chasing them.
So, the best thing to do if your system is not making you smile is to listen to as many systems and live events as you can to figure out what does make you smile. Then take the steps to get you there over time. Do not waste your money on trivial crap  like cable elevators and fancy cables. That stuff is for guys who need their egos stroked. You want more volume? Go for a bigger amp or more efficient speakers. You want a larger sound stage? Go for large Dipole loudspeakers. You want more bass? Go for subwoofers. Take the big steps in an evolutionary pattern until you get that smile every time you turn it on. Then you can deal with the little things. As Nelson Pass said, Audiophiles (real ones) just want to be happy." Nobody can tell you what makes you happy. To get good advice you have to be able to tell them what makes you happy.
The very best audio system is one that makes everybody smile with just the first measure.

I dont look for differences in sound for differences in sound...

I dont pick differences for differences with no clues about the way music must be experienced...I educated my hearing with my music...

I look for the music experience...

I created it bit by bit with my ears and little money, and homemade solutions...

I listen now music with a smile...I can appreciate differences in sound but without being obsessed by costly products anymore because of frustration and incapacity....


Takes the sound experience in your own hands and makes music happen...


Dont buy anymore, think first....And think with your ears not only the brain...

@agrippa, "For maybe the first 10-15 years of my audiophile "career" I heard differences between anything and everything. Cable lifters, signal cables, speaker cables, power cables, isolation devices, that green CD pen, you name it. I heard the differences at shop demos, at my friends’ places and at home.

Then real stuff happened and I lost interest in HiFi completely for a couple of years or so. When I came back I heard none, or almost none, of it. Not, I hasten to add, because I’d lost my hearing in the meantime. It is and has always been excellent. I have no problem picking up and pointing out slight nuances between cartridges, tone arms, CD players, amplifiers and whatever else which *ought* to sound different - but all that other stuff all sound the same or make no difference whatsoever.

I’ve given this quite some thought and the one change from before to after that I can point to as an explanation is that I no longer give a s**t. I no longer want, need or expect things to sound different and so, apparently, many of them don’t.

That’s my personal experience anyway. Take it as you will."




Portrait of the Audiophile as a Young Man?

Many poignant and wise words here

"Then the "real stuff" happens."

"an explanation is that I no longer give a s**t"

"I no longer want, need or expect things to sound different and so, apparently, many of them don’t."


Trust me, you're not the only one who feels this way.

Great post, I'll take it with thanks.

While I like the OP’s ideas, personally when looking for differences in a component or set up, I like to concentrate on not on a whole song, but often on a particular instrument. I find it much easier to remember the sound of a wood block, or piano, or flute, etc.

I’ll playback the same section with changes, sometimes several times to get a baseline. Once I have a good handle on what the change brings (or doesn’t) it’s back to enjoying the performance once again.

I can remember many times after a critical listening session feeling quite hungry. Our brains consume a large portion of energy when we are concentrating. Sometimes I’ll use unfamiliar music when comparing, but usually it requires a break in the music to do the change (as opposed to something easy like cable lifters on or off) and I find the reference cuts more helpful. (However they do change from time to time). Another thing is that I live alone (which is why I can do late night listening sessions) so all my tweeking is done solo.

Also im wondering if you have carpet?  I have read that cable lifting is really beneficial for carpet as opposed to wood floors. Now you’ve got me curious to try it again. 

...think I'll buy a Lotto ticket in that moment....beats being struck by lightning...;)  The odds of that are lower...

Wow....page 7...

@jerrybj....One can never be absolutely sure about that...;)

HO...There's nothing really 'wrong' about audiophiles, if taken in the context of any other 'enthusiasm' over what one enjoys.  There'll always be the 'casual' vs.'extremist', 'SOTA/$ no object' vs.'budget', 'man-cave' vs. 'living room', etc., ad infinitum....
We 'all', to varying degrees, just desire to listen to 'X' in a manner that we take pleasure and satisfaction in.
"How' is what always seems to invoke the most 'discussion'; the fact that we're not F2F is likely the reason most of the 'edgyer' conflicts emerge.

I generally assume that I take as much enjoyment out of the items I employ to do so as much as the poster I'm reading.

What we use to do so may have Absolutely very little in common...other than the fact that it reproduces sounds that we recognise. ;)

Yup, mine has 'issues'.  Yours may as well.  On 'good days', we like them anyway.  And we don't need to talk about the 'other days', unless the need to vent about it drives one Here. *L*

...and drives 7 pages....and counting...

Happy New Decade, y'all.  Personally, I'm waiting for 2:22am, 2/22/2020....just because...*L*

What is wrong with audiophiles? You guys are.

Couldn't agree more.
And have I finally shaken GHF? hope so...

Can’t beat him I am afraid

But I have stopped listening to him, so I win!

One of the best things about this thread is that it confirms who to avoid (and I'm only on page three).

Ok I understand... This is very wise... Thank you for your answer.... 

I do not wish to rain on anyone’s parade. There are many reasons why audiophiles sometimes don’t get the results they were expecting. 

Good !

I will wait for your opinion and impressions tough....

I will give you mine about the Black S.G....

I am amazed by it, I dont know if it is because it is the 7th one in my room, or because this Black S.G. is more precise and costly, but it work wonders near my skull and computer.... Is it possible to add too much chocolate and cherries to the ice cream? It seems not at all, the sound imaging of each voices or instruments is more organically linked and separated at the same time... I for sure add a small "golden" plate to it. :) Thanks Geoff for the tip about the black S.G....

The shungite I offered has a new home. 

I dont want to play hardball, I feel guilty for your dissatisfaction with the experiment....I dont want it free because of that...

And I already wait for an order from Russia with all that I will need ….Perhaps someone will grip to your kind offer...


But I would like that you speak about your impression, even negative, about this shungite+ copper experiment.... :) 

It is more difficult to extract impressions from you than from my wife.... :)

OK, if you want to play hardball, make me an offer. 😀 There are around 30 1x2 plates and 1 LB unopened raw shungite and a few unopened pyramids approx 3x3 inches.

Then the experiment with it audiowise seems to be negative for you ?


It is so cold coming from outdoor that I will use the S.G. in an hour... :)


I dont want to profit from your disappointment in the shungite experiment, then I thank you for the offer, but I feel too guilty to accept that....It is because of my advice that you buy the shungite… And I am sorry for your disappointment ….By the way I dont understand that this "golden" plate gives me so much, and nothing in your case ? 

I want nothing for it. The Black Schumann resonator from Hong Kong is interesting. 🤗

Can I give you something for it? I feel guilty because it is me that speak to you about shungite? why do you want to throw it?

By the way the postman just deliver to me the black Hong-Kong Schumann generator... :)

Unfortunately I can’t ship overseas, but if you’re in US I will be happy to oblige.

Why do you want to throw the shungite Geoffkait?


It is my "crazy" gold.... :)


For sure I will take it ….

Anybody want some free shungite? I’ve got a whole bunch of 1x2 shungite plates, some with copper foils some not, most are new. Most have adhesive backing, some were used. also some pure natural shungite chunks, one pound. And some shungite pyramids. Free to first customer, shipping free.

Thanks Millercarbon….

But perhaps my gold is after all , only iron pyrite, the gold for the crazy one... :)


Anyway it is "my" gold indeed...

This is gold:

But the lack of money push you to be creative, on the right or wrong track anyway, but creative you must be, if you want some sound quality results with your audio system... ( money for sure is not the warrenty of Hi-FI " per se") 
And you must not reinvent the wheel also and listening to basic known facts of science is a good idea … But it is not a necessity to be a scientist and someone can use his own ears to obtain a relatively good results, without resolving any equations... For example to treat a room without a computer...

Pure gold.

:)

Let me restate my point - while there’s obviously nothing wrong with DIY results can be just as hit and miss for poor people as they can for rich people. Enthusiasm can be very contagious.

Say that’s actually pretty good. I mean it actually makes sense. Except the last bit, enthusiasm, seems intended more to denigrate (you only ’think’ you hear it, because of your enthusiasm) when it should be uplifting. But whatever. Progress.

Say, I just thought of something! What if you state your point, write it all out, and delete it. Then restate your point, and post that instead! Half the posts, twice the quality. Sounds crazy but it just might work?

Ok I understand better your point Geoffkait...For sure being right or wrong about audio tweaks or science has nothing to do with money at all...

But the lack of money push you to be creative, on the right or wrong track anyway, but creative you must be, if you want some sound quality results with your audio system... ( money for sure is not the warrenty of Hi-FI " per se" but money can be a more "economic" means to obtain it without too much work).

And i must not reinvent the wheel also and i must listen to basic known facts of science for sure… But it is not a necessity to be a scientist and someone can use his own ears to obtain a relatively good results, without resolving any equations... For example to treat a room without a computer,or make empirically homemade cheap Helmholtz bottles...

Sometimes, in a particular situation, the best possible, is, in someway, the enemy or in some mindset, the obstacle for the better...

So we can see there's nothing wrong with this audiophile. Thank you, mahgister. The exception that proves the rule.

The lack of fund is not "an argument" it is a fact that you can use in your rethorical construction...

I only said and want to say, that we can enjoy a relatively good Hi-fi system at any price, modulo homemade solutions... The obsession with sound is a compulsion without relation to the purse of someone... We can address this obsession with money only or creativity only , or with a mix of money and creativity together.

Ah, the logical fallacy of lack of funds. The inverse Strawman argument of super-expensive systems. 💵 💵 💵 

There is 2 species of "audiophile" for me...

The one with money and the one with no money....

The 2 look for a "good sound"...But the one with money may have no limits  linked to their musical hobby or in some case their obsession with sound...

Some in these 2 categories indeed are the same kind of people, obsessed, more with sound for sure, than with music...

Some like me are relatively "poor" and dreamed yesterday, to owns tomorrow, a Hi-Fi system to enjoy music at last, without thinking : " this cd or files sounded bad, or worst than these other one I owns"...

When your audio system is, at " his level of price", (there is 3 level) at his relatively optimal top possibilities, than you enjoy your music for the first time, all files does not have the same audiophile qualities but they all sound good ...I created my audio system without much money for that with all my homemade cheap cost solutions...

The rest of the story is "obsession" if you go back to listening only the sound...I enjoy music without being obsessed by sound, interested by sound is not being obsessed necessarily...

For maybe the first 10-15 years of my audiophile "career" I heard differences between anything and everything. Cable lifters, signal cables, speaker cables, power cables, isolation devices, that green CD pen, you name it. I heard the differences at shop demos, at my friends’ places and at home.

Then real stuff happened and I lost interest in HiFi completely for a couple of years or so. When I came back I heard none, or almost none, of it. Not, I hasten to add, because I’d lost my hearing in the meantime. It is and has always been excellent. I have no problem picking up and pointing out slight nuances between cartridges, tone arms, CD players, amplifiers and whatever else which *ought* to sound different - but all that other stuff all sound the same or make no difference whatsoever.

I’ve given this quite some thought and the one change from before to after that I can point to as an explanation is that I no longer give a s**t. I no longer want, need or expect things to sound different and so, apparently, many of them don’t.

That’s my personal experience anyway. Take it as you will.

My assertion is that when we stop learning, we tend to stop living...even if it's to fight something that otherwise might seem important to us at the time. Go your own way as you like, but that's maybe the best benefit of my own experience in this case that I can offer you, is all.

miller carbon: The word audiophile literally means lover of sound.

Don't know that I can accept your premise, honestly.

Okay. But at least I have one. What's yours again, anyway?

Don't know that I can accept your premise, honestly. 

I can appreciate that some audiophiles seem to me to be irrationally or persistently overbearing when it comes to what others report hearing firsthand, but that's always really been the case. Even before the internet. Is there a cadre of idiots online now days that seem to excel in their stupidity or their desire to dig their heels in and stubbornly refuse to acknowledge facts or observations of others in order to defend their own position at all cost? Well, yeah. But, so what? News flash: those people are ignorant. And there have always been ignorant people in the world...long before the hobby ever got started...and they'll be there long after. 

But, if I ever went through a period in my life where I thought it was important to me that I 'go forth' in the hobby and 'save the world' and fight that kind of ignorance, then it was something that I was forced to recognize that I would ultimately have to give up...or at least modify to only being concerned with limiting my own ignorance instead of trying to limit the world's **inexhaustible** supply. Since then, I've managed to regain my perspective, something that I inadvertently surrendered when I got down into the weeds of 'fighting the good fight'. I couldn't search for information anymore, I had to fight the infidels. And at times the fight seemed so intense that I couldn't devote time to anything else. So in my zeal for all in the hobby that I felt was holy, I wound up digging my heels in and refusing to acknowledge certain facts or observations of others in order to defend my position at all cost...knowwhuttimean, Verne?? It's a free country, you can do what you please, but I'm just telling you, as a guy who's been there and done that, that it's just a trap...it's intellectual flypaper...a waste of any "true" audiophile's time or energy, if you ask me. There's no victory in it - nothing to be won...the fight will always rage eternal - whether you decide to be a part of it or not. 

Just before I heard 'the call to enlist', I was on my way to learning for myself how to increase my own level of knowledge and awareness so that I could benefit from it directly. Once I regained my bearings, that's exactly what I returned to...swords beat back into plowshares. Sure I still see the people, with their heads down, stuck in the trenches fighting, but now that I can stand up again I also can see the reasoning of all sorts of relatively more civil folks I've never met, who may happen to be wearing different audiophile hats than mine, but whose ideas I'm free to consider for my own purposes again without having to subject them to a purity test by trying to filter it all through a 'cause'. 

Peace is mo' better than war.

The word audiophile literally means lover of sound. Can also mean sound enthusiast. Key being, either way, sound. Not lover of specifications. Not lover of gear. Not lover of explanations, theories, technology, or even music really. Just sound. 

Which is hard to square with the uncomfortably large number of so-called audiophiles who it would seem the last thing they will ever do is trust their ears, let alone anyone else's. 

And even crazier they do indeed hang out on websites posing as audiophiles while posting comments that could only have come from a misaudiotrope- one who hates sound.

So its a love hate relationship. Which, we got guys loving listening to music, and we got guys loving talking tech. The technobabblers hate not being able to explain what the audiophiles hear, which drives them crazy because they think they're better (more scientific, objective, etc) than the listeners. 

Which makes it a trick question. The genuine audiophiles, there is nothing wrong with them. Not at all. How could there be? Its the fake ones, the ones who not only deny the evidence of their own ears but everyone else's as well, who make me shake my head and wonder what is wrong with audiophiles?

Yep, that's what I'm sayin'.

Yeah.... but I seriously doubt your significant other nonaudiophile would spend all her/his time in the audiophile forums denouncing stuff as snake oil

If there are any people here on Agon who are publicly identifying as a "non-audiophile" and are arguing counter to audiophiles here, then it has flown under My radar...

Maybe someone can direct me to where that was specifically going on...I suppose I might be curious to actually see that...

But, I’d say anyone who is "playing the audiophile card" is stepping into the sandlot with all the other kids.

But, I can’t imagine anyone having a reason, as a non-audiophile, to join an audiophile forum and go looking to vent. If they’re truly not interested in it, why join a group of them? That’s like an alcoholic joining a coffee club just to complain about the drink selection.

Maybe those are really just audiophile wannabes, not true non-audiophiles. Your call as to whether they maybe just got off on the wrong foot and might can be enlightened, or whether they’re just looking for trouble.

The only definition of a "non-audiophile" I have is of those people who label **themselves** as non-audiophiles..you know, significant others, or those who'll tell you they've never tried to assemble their first system. etc.


Of course, just because somebody **says** they’re an audiophile maybe doesn’t mean they’re necessarily a **good** one...…. ;)

All good, valid points Ivan. What I personally don’t understand is the tendency and urge the non-audiophiles have in posting to all audio related groups and forums

I think you may forever be struggling with the "what's wrong with audiophiles" question as long as you may be reluctant to just kind of chill and go back and look at the underlying psych (or is it just human nature) of what non-audiophiles maybe are really up against. 

It isn't that they don't know what things like "imaging" or "sound staging" even are (which they may not), it's more that they don't yet know what those things **mean** to **them** personally...how those things can come to affect their whole perceived notion of what the act of listening to recorded music can potentially be like for them - particularly over time - the kind of time one has to freely listen to their favorite tunes **over many different sittings** (that may be key) in order to come to a cumulative impression of whether or not that is a game-changing idea to them and how that might sway their attitude toward the idea of "concert-style listening" that audiophiles do. I think non-audiophiles are predisposed by their own lifetime of (non-audiophile) listening experiences to think of the idea of listening **TO** the music (rather than just hearing it play) as a bit, well...'weird' to them. That is, it's just that they've never had that kind of long-term listening opportunity that allows them to break on through to the other side with it. Most audiophiles don't pick up on that and, certainly, the non-audiophiles don't pick up on that either. I think the opportunity for miscommunication between both camps is normally pretty ripe. 

More than anything else, I believe systems are to, and must, be lived with. That's how we fundamentally become familiar with both their weaknesses and the strengths. Yeah, I could say that the easy solution is to give a non-audiophile a top-flight system and let them live with it for a year and see what they'd say after that, but exactly how often does it work out that way in real life?

I do know that some non-audiophiles have an aversion to certain groups, recordings or even certain kinds of music, all seemingly based on a built-up unconscious bias triggered by past, negative, non-audiophile listening experiences (or at least an accumulation of it) - like a regret of 'all those years' they may have spent hearing, say, most music recorded in the 50's, or maybe slow-moving tracks (like most ballads) that (minus the energy of faster tracks) just seem to 'lose something in the translation' and are reduced to being boring or otherwise deemed an 'epic fail' by some non-audiophiles. My wife is like that. She does not have my perspective on it, so she really doesn't see it as a product of just the less-than-ideal systems she's been listening to music on all her life...but, her bias toward those things, built up over time as it is, is as strong as ever. But, that I think is very common and, of course, audiophiles have long known the endless treasures they have been able to unearth in just those types of musical territories having had their listening horizons expanded by their audiophile systems...a joy that many non-audiophiles stand to never know.

If we were talking about video tech instead of audio, then I think it might be a lot easier for people to pick up on the differences. But, there's just something about music, the tech and sound perception that makes it something less than straightforward.

What's wrong with audiophiles? I'd say nothing, really. What's wrong with non-audiophiles? Nothing really there, either...nothing that might couldn't be fixed maybe. 

But, somehow I'm sure the miscommunication between the two camps in general will continue.

Cheers

ejr1953,
yeah guilty as charged. I have when occasion permitted frequented different hi-fi stores, investigated equipment and such to see what was available, perhaps that I hadn’t been aware of; listened to, though purchased nothing.
I have thousands of dollars in stereo equipment, and I am pretty tight with my money, it’d had better work and work with my system well to motivate me to part with my money.
Experience, or rather good experience has lead me to trust myself more than the salesmen.

Some of my audio buddies seem to be more into the equipment than the music.

Back in the day, as an audio salesman on commission, I learned that when an audiophile walked into the showroom, it was best to be polite to them, figure out what they wanted to hear and set them up in a sound room, so you wouldn't miss selling to others, who came to buy something.  Whenever I sold something to an audiophile, when it considered the time it took to get to the sale, my hourly rate was usually very low.

Thank you Glupson.

I’m not 100% but I’m pretty sure he’s upset because somebody didn’t believe his cable elevators story. It’s not Armageddon.

rvpiano

Yes and at some variable degree we are all in the same situation, tentation, experience...My best to you...