Which stereo amp to try under $30k

Let me just say that at least for my part, I have no affiliation or relationship at all with Merrill. 

I received a wonderful note from Boulder on my question about the 1160. While I have not heard it yet, I suspect this one will be at the top of my list going in to listening sessions. I'm incredibly happy with the 508 Phono and the build quality is top notch.

+1 Aesthetix Atlas Eclipse as mentioned by several--even if you can't listen to Eclipse upgrade, even the lower models will impress-and you can stay married
+1 Boulder 1160 if you can stay married

@mrdecibel i just need to find a place to hear them. 

Mayor, as a reminder, you were open, to up to 30 K........The Merrill 118 mono blocks are getting raves by many......Class D, but still.........and WC likes them...

When you want to get serious about an amplifier I can send you a custom built point-to-point wired, Plitron transformer and choke, Nichicon Super Through capacitors, Amtrans, Caddock, and Shinkoh resistors, HexFreds and V-Capacitors in a hybrid power amplifier, 100wpc or 200wpc for you to listen to. The hybrids don’t run hot so no worries there.  Plus way under $30K.

Happy Listening.

@mayoradamwest 

I would avoid class D amp if I were you. 

If you aren't willing to go monoblocks I would recommend a true dual monoblock configurations or designs in a stereo amp chassis but both left & right channels are preferably in separate chambers and are completely isolated and independent from each other. 

If going class d, I’d probably want to hear the Merrill 116 and 118, though I’m not sure where I can audition them except at WC’s house. 

Does the amp need to have full page 4 color ads in all the magazines and does it NEED to look expensive and be expensive?


If your answer to these questions is ’no’, then contact Ric Schultz (Tweakaudio), he is in Soquel, CA. His EVS 1200 is amazing at any price, but is a lot less than 30K.

I think you should try the best Class D until today.
Purifi 1et400a much cheaper and could satisfy you and you can invest 
https://www.apollonaudio.com/purifi-1et400a-apollon-audio-monoblock/

Or
Linnenberg liszt monoblock

Devialet 1000 pro

@mayoradamwest
good luck, over and out

I’ve got paternity leave coming up in a few weeks, so will hopefully have some time to visit shops. 

Will definitely find the D’Agostino to try. Also the ARC 160S, but still pretty sure I don’t want a tube amp.

Re: cables. Open to changing but will settle on electronics first 
Re: Innamorata or similar small shops. I’m not too interested in products that have 0 resale and aren’t supported by a company I expect to be around in 10 years. Nothing against those amps, but it’s just not a risk I feel like taking with so many better established companies making fine products. 

D'Agastino Momentum for SS.  ARC REF250SE for tube

P.S. to my previous post: Regarding the second of the two questions I stated, it occurs to me that the explanation **might** be that when the Innamorata specs refer to "power consumption" what is being referred to is what I believe most engineers would refer to as "power dissipation." If so the numbers I cited in regard to that question would make sense.

Usually I would expect "power consumption" to refer to how much power is drawn from the wall outlet, and is going into the amp. Which of course must be greater than the amount of power the amp is sending out to the speakers, and much greater in the case of a class A or AB amp. While "power dissipation" is equal to power in minus power out.

Regards,
-- Al

I’d take a serious look

Serious?

 I’d take a serious look at Atma-sphere With full options

Regarding the Innamorata II Level II, while my understanding is that it is certainly a very fine amplifier, and while the following may very well not be issues, I would suggest that if you speak with Jeff you ask him the following questions about these specs:

150 wpc at 8 ohms, 210 wpc at 4 ohms

Power Consumption: 129 Watts idle, 350 Watts maximum

The questions:

1) Is the fact that the amp is only rated to provide 60 watts more into 4 ohms than into 8 ohms (210 watts vs. 150 watts, which is a difference of less than 1.5 db) a concern with your particular speakers? As George and I alluded to earlier the combination of impedance magnitude and impedance phase angle of your speakers probably represents an effective load of less than 2 ohms at certain bass frequencies.

2) No amplifier can provide 210 watts into each of two channels while consuming only 350 watts. And for that matter providing 300 watts (150 x 2 channels) while consuming 350 watts represents higher efficiency than can be expected of a non-class D amplifier (and I assume this amp is not class D). How can these numbers be reconciled?

As I mentioned, these questions may or may not represent issues in your particular application, or in other applications, but IMO they are certainly reasonable questions I would recommend asking.

Good luck. Regards,
-- Al

@mustbethemusic
+1
OP, just call Jeff at the number I posted. He’s super-responsive.
Again, I have no affiliation except I have purchased, and love his Commander preamp and Inamorata amplifier. IMHO, the positive reviews do not overstate how good his stuff is.

I had the Bricasti M28's with a pair of Wilson Beseech ACT Evolutions and they sounded very liquid and very natural with very  deep but not exaggerated. Wonderful sound 200 watts. Life time warranty and made in the USA..

You might want to consider a Wells Audio Innamorata Signature it will meet all your guidelines particularly regarding musicality and realism. It's more than competitive with amps at the top of your range. Jeff Wells is a local guy in Campbell if you want to support local talent. I might be able to arrange a listen if interested. 

https://www.dagogo.com/wells-audio-innamorata-signature-stereo-amplifier-review/

Ishkabibil said he was mistaken. I’m not changing my speakers. I love them. 

For what it's worth, I agree with ishkabibil above -- I would upgrade your speakers before your amps.

I am not sure the price of the FM Acoustics FM 411-MKIII, but if it is within your range I would get that and be done with it. It is 160 wpc.

Alternatively, based on your specs I would get the Soulution 511 Stereo Amp, at 150 wpc and $32,000 (I'm certain you could haggle w/ a dealer and get it down to $30k).

Either of the two above would be, I imagine, leaps and bounds above many of the others you mention (McIntosh, ARC, Pass, Luxman, even D'ag, which I found to be abundantly boring at each of three separate shows now).

There is a used VAC Statement 450S (225 wpc) currently up on Audiogon (I have no affiliation with it) that would also fit your bill rather well, if you do want to consider one of the few Tube amps that would meet your criteria. Another would be the VTL S-400 Series II.

Shy of one of the above, I'd stick with Mc!

I have the T+ A 3100HV integrated amp driving Wilson Audio Alexia’s. Could not be happier. It was an easy decision for me between my 3 top choices: Gryphon integrated (second choice) and a big step above the Pass Int 250. I believe the only distributor in CA is Tweak Studio, who are a pleasure to work with. 

I would take a look at Mark Levinson 534 stereo amp. I have a pair of B&W 802D2 driven this wonderful amp and they sound amazing. 

Sctatch that last.comment from me on speakers...yours are fine..I got them confused with another post....

Your speakers are the weak link in your setup.  Your desire for more bass will not be achieved with those.

Try a preamp with a loudness button and save yourself a ton of dough.

I would suggest the Simaudio 860A V2 mentioned earlier. It ticks all of your boxes AND has great synergy with an ARC Ref pre. I strongly suggest you reconsider speaker cables and interconnects at the same time as they are as important to complete the synergy as the components are.

    

J&J Audio solutions, Willow Glen, San Jose
jjaudiosolutions dot com
Ypsilon,EAR gear are great ones to consider. Zanden is also good to have a look. 

Mat

@mayoradamwest
Jeff's cell:
408.376.0861
wells audio dot com
He owned a brick and mortar high-end store for many years and is now building a line of wonderful electronics in cahoots with Scott Frankland and some other very talented folks.  Scott is considered by many to be a legend, starting in the old days of MFA- Moore-Frankland.  I bought my MFA tube gear in the mid 1980s and still have, and love it. 
Hope this helps, and I hope the info is within the bounds of Audiogon policies.  

@ps where? I live in Campbell. I don’t know if many shops around that carry hifi equipment. 

May I suggest the Wells Audio Innamorata II Level II

$15,000.00 USD?

You can audition the amp in either Cambell or San Jose, CA

There are a number of reviews of the Inamorata online.

I think you’ll find Jeff Wells is a gentleman and a pleasure to deal with, and the audition worth the short drive south from SF.  He'll tell you whether or not he thinks his best amp would be a good match for your speakers.

No affiliation except that I own a "basic" Inamorata and Maggies.

Someone mentioned the T+A above. I second that. I have the B&W 803 D3 speakers, paired with T+A PA 3000 HV, and it’s a great match. Current (slightly improved) version is PA 3100 HV

mayoradamwest OP
You guys are a bad influence. Now I’ve got Gryphon on my radar.

I've heard this amp, on similar hard to drive speakers Alexia's, what I write below is not exaggerated.

If you bite the bullet just a little now, and get the Gryphon Antillion Evo, it’ll be the last amp you ever get.
As it will drive anything, sound sublime, the bass will be a bottomless pit of drive and information with any speaker, and has adjustable Class-A that will give you mids and highs that are as sweet and extended like you’ve never heard, dynamics that are wholesome and big, so in a way you’ll save.

Cheers George

'I just completed my system'

Keep telling yourself that
 😋

mayoradamwest,

LOL!! It's a bug that never stops biting!  I just completed my system after 3 years of matching/comparing/demo'ing/researching/ and I couldn't be happier! 

There will always be matters of taste, so I just do my best to be as well-rounded as I can be.  I've heard the D'Agostino pieces and love them too!  As a matter of fact, my Gryphon seller here locally raves about them too (even though he doesn't carry it, a sign of objectivity to me).  But I highly recommend you give Philip a listen and even if you don't go the Gryphon route I think it'll be worth your time!

Best wishes!

(And let us know what you decide ultimately) ;)

thanks, @mrc4u 

You guys are a bad influence. I originally started thinking I was going to get the M900u which is only like 15k. Then, I started debating the Boulder 1160, at 27k. Now I've got the 2160 and Gryphon on my radar. I probably do need to keep it under 30k if I want to stay married though ;-)

Mayoradamwest,

I read that you were in the San Francisco area. Here is an even that you may be interested in?

Philip O’Hanlon, who is the North American distributor for Gryphon Audio will be hosting with Audiovision San Francisco the evening of Friday 9/27 through Sunday 9/29 with Audio Vision S.F. at the Holiday Inn on 1500 Van Ness Avenue for their 20th Anniversary event, presenting a full Gryphon system with choice music. you may want to drop by if you are in the area.

  GO HERE for more info

Hullo MayorWest, apologies for the delay in responding, I wanted to check with Boulder to make sure i wasn't giving out incorrect information.
 It was a pre owned 2060 that i initially suggested, as you say a pre owned 2160 would likely be a budget buster, and more to the point, i don't believe there has yet been a used 2160 on the market.

Basically your information is correct, as confirmed by Boulder

"With regard to your enquiry, the 1160 and 2160 are very different beasts, although, both absolutely stunning as you would expect from the stable of Boulder.
The 2160 is 600 watts/channel in pure Class A operation, the amplifier is biased as not to act or double up to the equivalent of a log burner, it will run warm, but nothing to be concerned about.
With regard to its power, it will handle any load you care to place (speaker type) through it.
I’ve had the pleasure of hearing this amplifier, and as you would expect, it’s jaw dropping.
The 1160 is biased more towards a class A/B status, rated at 300 watts/channel, it’s no slouch though, very open with a massive soundstage.
You’ve also made a correct assumption with regard to 2x 1160 used to bi-amp or bridge.
They totally come alive in this configuration, extremely musical open and dynamic, everything you would expect really."



It can be plugged into a regular outlet and is configured for the market it is sold in. I understand that some owners of the 2000 series upwards do install a dedicated 32amp circuit in order to get the best from it. I've done the same here.

 I will admit to being fairly nonplussed at the idea that 2050's sound sterile. IME these are the most richly textured, lifelike power amplifiers i have heard. But i will admit to preferring mine when fed by a valve preamp- i use a Wavac - it sounds less awesome than with a Boulder preamp, a tad rounded off at the frequency extremes, but gains some seductive magic while maintaining an iron grip at all frequencies.
 I'm unfamiliar with the review you referred to, but i found the positive feedback review of the 2060 to perfectly encapsulate what i experience with my 2060, to the extent that i now trust their reviews above all others



"https://positive-feedback.com/Issue27/2060_boulder.htm

You should be able to get great bass now with the McIntosh (the Grateful Dead always did). I've always thought the Nordost line sounded bright. Try different cables - which, I know, is another entire thread. 

I second the Gryphon Diablo 300 recommendation!  For the money, there are few integrated or even separate amps that are in its class.

Very powerful and gives very nice bass.  Not overly punchy, but cool and organic.

mayoradamwest OP

almarg
The impedance curves shown in John Atkinson’s measurements of your speaker indicate, on paper at least, that the speaker is highly unfriendly to tube amplification. Especially in key parts of the bass region that you are concerned with, e.g. 50 to 100 Hz or so, taking into account the phase angle plot as well as the impedance magnitude.

Totally agree with Al on this, I might just add that the -64 phase angle combined with the low impedance at 70hz could be seen by the amp as 2ohm or even lower.

But because the 802d’s are 91db, only 50watts will do the trick, so long as you don’t want party levels..
But!!!! that 50w needs to almost double to 4ohm 100w and again to 2ohms 200w, to make sure the amp has good current, and it needs to do that without breaking a sweat, and stay stable doing it.
Solid state amps with bjt (bi-polar) output stages will be your best best.

This will do a magnificent job, and you can select your own amount of Class-A bias on the front on the run, also good for hot days, just back it off.
https://gryphon-audio.dk/shop/power-amplifiers/antileon-evo-stereo/
or the cheaper Mephisto https://gryphon-audio.dk/shop/power-amplifiers/mephisto/


Cheers George

I’m not sure about all of this chatter about how my speakers don’t work with tubes but maybe they will if I get the right amp or whatnot. I said I didn’t want a tube amp. I’ve got a tube line stage. That’s enough tube for me. Looking forward to trying several of the amps suggested here over the coming weeks. 

- Prefer not tubes (already have a tube line stage - too hot for small children and don't fit in rack)
- I'm ok with a colored sound. Prefer musicality and realism over "accuracy" or "neutrality"
- Needs an absolute minimum of 150W based on how loud I listen

@mayoradamwest  A lot of us older audiophiles grew up with exposed tubes. If kids know they are 'hot' they stay away- otherwise a stove in the house might not be a good idea either :)  Even a class A solid state amp is going to be hot- such an amp will make 85-90% of the same heat made by a class A tube amp of the same power. The heat of tubes comes from their class of operation, not their filaments. Most solid state amps make less heat because they are 'AB' but they are biased so lightly that they are much closer to 'B' than 'A'. This is why solid state amps have a reputation for being cooler for the most part.

 Some tube amps do fit into a rack. But if you are looking for a warmer, more musical presentation, tubes might be the only way to go. But I agree with @almarg  your speakers present difficulty for tube amplifiers. If I were looking at this I'd also be looking at a speaker that is easier to drive and this would be true even if I was staying with solid state. The simple fact of the matter is that **all** amplifiers make higher distortion into lower impedances and difficult phase angles! The distortion I'm talking about is higher ordered harmonic distortion, which will be audible as brightness, harshness and reduced detail. By simply using a speaker of higher impedance you can get any amplifier to have a smoother and more detailed presentation. And make no mistake: many people conflate brightness with detail and the two are not the same!